Raiding Guild - Procedures
Posted 18 October 2006 - 09:24 AM
1.Every guild poses sometimes a decision to whetever kick the less Hardcore* Oriented members or just replace them by new ones. The decision can be hard to make, but it has to be made. [*Meaning people who concentrate on raids, are interestid in progress and willing to sacrifice for guilds progress]. In my guild, we have got rid of the real "worst" of them, but still kept a few old time members who don't really share our working methods.
The result of removing these members was actually quite positive, for my happy surprise no one actually protested about it. So this was maybe the easiest decision to make, as we wanted one common thing and the others didn't.
2.A]All guilds will at some point come to a lack of members, usually due to not realizing or predicting the near future with enough expertise, or then just for the simple lack of people. This mostly results in very spontanous invitations of people just to quickly fill the gaps and get the raids going again [especially if your not the top guild who doesn't have trouble finding good people]. This again brings trouble, as you will most likely need to kick half of them [are you going to?]
2.B] If part 2.A is due to lack of activity, might you be raiding too much and simply burning out people ? If it's this there might be another way than recruiting more people, perhaps taking a break, but upsetting the core of active raiders ?
3. If activity starts lacking, and especially if loot raids are filled but wipe raids are empty. Are you going to find new people to fill the empty spaces, or are you somehow miraculously going to track attendance and award loot raid spots for attendance to other raids? The problem with attendance tracking and awarding spots on loot raids can be hard though, and might result in drama which can also be stressfull to handle with.
Basically 3 options I came up with [hope this might help someone about to make decisions]
Option 1. [Semi Hardcore due to high amount of raids]
Keeping up a large amount of raids per week [6 of them for example], running loot instances regularly due to quite much time and leaving 2-3 nights for progress in a week. If your not bleeding edge of your server, get ready for people to burn out and having to recruit way undergeared people. But, this is why you've got the extra days for the loot raids, in order to gear them up.
+: The good thing about option 1 is that you will have lots of raids per week, keeping the really hardcore people occupied even if these were mostly loot raids. And ofcourse, gearing up also the more HC people with new epics, for sure if you quit doing a loot instance some of the true core of the guild would still need items from there.
-: The bad things about option are that people can really get burnt out more than in option 2. This includes the core people. The other negative side is reduced amount of time to for example grinding herbs for potions and farming money for repair bills etc. Keep in mind that people who work daily [even if they attended all raids] probably don't have the required free time during day to farm. You might not have the same raiding team for the wipe raids either.
Option 2. [Hardcore due to high amount of Wipe raids compared to loot raids]
Having 4 nights of raids per week, all dedicated for the newest instance might be a viable choice if you wan't to maintain good progress [better than progress than in option 1]. Basically, you don't do weekly loot raids to any instance.
+: With less raiding days the core people and more casual people will become closer, and also burnout occurs alot less. The raid team will most likely keep itself the same through the raids giving a chance for a smaller and tighter guild.
-: There will for sure be lots of whining about loot, people will want loot for PVP and their Epeen. If you can't stay firm in your decision and if most of the guild seriously loaths the idea of leaving behind epics, this might not be your way to go.
[- Addition to option 2. Assigning of loot or some other system than DKP will most likely work better for this system, as it takes in account the benefit of the item to that certain person]
Option 3. [Hardcore to the bone]
This is what most of the bleeding edge guilds have, as i understood it. About 4-6 nights of progress [Maybe 1 or 2 loot runs done in the week or not at all]. This will drain your members if they aren't HC and willing to sacrifice alot. Great if you can get it working, but managing this might be the most stressfull of the options, youll really need to piss on people to make it work :p
+: Well, as expected "bleeding edge" progress. Atleast this provides the tools for it, the one who uses them in the end determines the progress. Tight knight environment, as you will need people who share your mentality [Getting these people is the biggest challenge though].
-: Burnout even if your HARDCORE. Having to leave out some people [I guess it doesn't matter as much since you took option 3]
My Opinion: In my honest opinion, id take option 2. Though my current guild runs with a mixture of option 1 and 3. I think option 2 would be the best as it still leaves 3 nights free to do whatever the fuck you wan't was it ingame or not but still concentrates heavily on progress. THOUGH gearing up new recruits will be hell :F If you will ever need any
In Burning Crusade:
Though I don't like speculation, I guess most will go for option 3 as you'll only need 25 people to make a raid work. Alot easier to find the amount of HC people for the spots.
And comment on the options I presented and the 1-4 challenges of making your guild work. Those were just to get the conversation started really.
EDIT: I wrote it without reading it again :P So I'll check my spelling and correct any mistakes when I get home.
Posted 18 October 2006 - 11:35 AM
To defeat an encounter, a lot of factors play in.
Some are simple to manipulate, others are harder to control.
This you can't do much about, everyone can learn, but some have more talent than others. You might try to figure out who is struggling, and help them out, though not everyone is willing to learn...
Consumables is farmtime, doing content that requires a lot of them constantly will make raiding expensive fast.
This one can go up and down, whenever you clear farm-content, you improve it, whenever you lose a core member, it goes down.
Learning time spent figuring out your guilds particular way of doing an encounter. This is typically what you are working on, on wipe-nights.
Luck (and lag)
Nuff said, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you get laggy. Make sure you have people willing to give it another go, when luck is against you.
Focus (and motivation)
This is arguably the most tough one. People are motivated by lots of different things, knowing what makes them tick is the real trick to leadership.
The sum of all these things(and possibly some other i missed) is what determines if you will bring home the loot. While spending 6 week-nights wiping on the same boss might seem like a good idea, you might be better off clearing mc, bwl, aq, taking a day "off" to farm consumables, and then spending 2 nights of trying to get the boss down.
For each week you spend, not getting a particular boss down, you will still be improving the overall gear of your guild, improving your chances of getting him down.
Personally i'd go for a mix of option 1 and 2. The focus being on keeping people happy, and therefore keeping burnout to a minimum, allowing you to progress further. Remember, when you are progressing faster than your relative gear levels, you are simply making it harder for yourself.
Posted 18 October 2006 - 01:25 PM
Be a little bit less concerned with keeping up with the bleeding edge Joneses - bleeding isn't everyone's idea of fun.
Keep at least one day open for trying ONE new boss, and give yourself time to learn and celebrate your acheivements.
Farm all other worthwhile content, and don't be afraid to let instances slip to "completely optional, bring your alts/friends/whatever" status when on farm. That keeps them farmed so your mains can fill in gaps in their gear with solid items and your alts can pick up "trash loot" and keep everyone engaged and happy.
Just remember that mains have priority over alts, and let main healer classes pick up toys over alt DPS classes - they patiently passed them to your DPS mains, don't shaft them again.
Posted 18 October 2006 - 01:38 PM
Posted 18 October 2006 - 01:56 PM
You don't have to piss on people to make anything work, if you just have a group of likeminded people around you, wether that be casual or hardcore people. On one side you talk about removing players and replacing them with more likeminded ones and on the other side you talk about "big issues" with certain methods, but those wouldn't be big issues at all if your guild's opinion on raiding wasn't so heavily divided. You have to decide what you want this guild to be, you alone. Now, personally I think a guild in this case should become more hardcore, simply because otherwise they'll never change much from what they are already and if a guild is in the position the OP was in, it's pretty clear they don't like what they are now.
The first thing is that members that are now casual, or seem casual, might actually become more hardcore if the guild requires it of them, but a hardcore member will almost never become more casual, they will simply move on (well unless some RL issue comes up). This means that it is usually easier for a guild to become more hardcore than the other way around if you want to keep as many current members on board as possible.
Also you pointed out yourself, a hybrid guild will always be prey to people that join as newbies and often leave as decked out players seeking a more hardcore guild. The only exceptions to this that I've seen are guild largely made up of groups of players whos bonds are stronger than just the current guild and go back to the past or have some thing on the side ('gaming' guilds or such). This means that a hybrid guild will almost always be struggling and I think that it would be a lot more stressful to lead something like that, than a hardcore raiding guild.
Furthermore, the OP's vision of a hybrid guild's raiding habits seems pretty far fetched to me. Farming old raid instances for loot is a key element of progressing in the latest instance, unless every single one of your players is really decked out in non-raid obtainable epics and are really skilled. My guess is that if you truly go this way you'll become one of those guilds that never made it past Huhuran in AQ40 and is now working hard on being stuck in Naxx. Personally I'd rather be a guild busting my ass on C'Thun right now than being a something halfway and not-quite there yet guild a few mobs into Naxx. Better yet, if you go with five days on your weekly schedule, you can start out by farming the old raid instance in two days and eventually move it to one day, with having four days left for progression.
Lastly, I also think it really matters what the leadership wants to do. In the end they are the ones that have to keep whatever guild you end up with going and if it's something they are not happy with, the chance of leadership burnouts is pretty damn high. And if anything is worse than player burnouts or bore-outs, it's when it happens to the leadership.
Also one more little thing:
This can actually be done and I wouldn't consider it a miraculous thing. What we do is designate some days as "progression" days and people that attend on those days receive a significantly higher amount of dkp than people that don't. In the end the results should be obvious. It also doesn't have to become a drama if you make the rules perfectly clear beforehand and if -ofcourse- your guild's raiding goals are clear and fit with a measure like this.
or are you somehow miraculously going to track attendance and award loot raid spots for attendance to other raids? The problem with attendance tracking and awarding spots on loot raids can be hard though, and might result in drama which can also be stressfull to handle with.
Posted 18 October 2006 - 02:16 PM
1. Don't let seniority affect your decision on who to invite to raids. Do not let anyone be able to continue raiding when there is a more dedicated/skilled player able to take their place. Even if that person is your wife/father.
People who feel they need to perform well to continue getting invites always perform better. No one should be exempt. you don't need to kick that co-founder from the guild just because he shows up to 50% of the raids and afk's on trash all the time, but you also don't need to invite him to raids. If he shows up and you do not invite him, tell him why. Be up front about this policy, but don't back down.
2. Surround yourself with good advisors, but keep dictatorship. Be sure to delegate well and often, but keep ultimate power for yourself ( as long as you're not a stupid asshole).
Posted 18 October 2006 - 03:46 PM
Before :P you :P do that :P you'll also :P fill out your :P profile before :P you :P get fucking :redhammer:.
EDIT: I wrote it without reading it again :P So I'll check my spelling and correct any mistakes when I get home.
You're lucky Gurg got here first and gave you a reprieve. I'm much less tolerant and have been giving automatic 2-day bans to every level 1 alt I run across.
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.
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