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      Site has been updated to IPS as of 12 November Known Issues So Far: Old wowhead "item" tags are depricated. They may be re-added to fix some issues with older guides, but for most part it's better to just use the modern wowhead.js which auto parses actual wowhead links automatically into tooltips/names. Just post wowhead links in guides and the js will do the rest. You don't need a special BB code for items. Old article links will be broken do to IPS 4 changing url path to remove some pointless "/_/" directory. The articles are still there and can be found in guides menu. You just may not be able to click links from any threads linking to them without editing out the "/_/" part of url. I'll fix most of this little by little when more important stuff is taken care of. External links/google search results may run into same problem. That will just rely on waiting for google to reindex new paths. After you login, you may be thrown to an error page saying page cannot be found if you logged in from the forum index. Harmless though. Just click "forums" and you'll get forum index since redirect after login is busted. The benefactors bar seems to hang/timeout sometimes.


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About Exemplar

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    The One-Eyed Man
  • Birthday 02/13/78

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  • Character Name Exemplar
  • Gender Female
  • Race Human
  • Class Paladin
  • Realm Scarlet Crusade
  • Realm Location United States
  • Guild Scarlet Aristocracy
  • Guild URL http://thearistocracy.net
  1. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    I haven't been maintaining the OP because: the only 6.2 Ret changes are reduced Mastery (surprise, still best stat), AW has "charges" so it works with the new tier bonuses, and those new tier bonuses.  We didn't receive buffs, one teeny nerf, and nothing which should cause a priority sequence change.   I've now added T18 gear bonuses to OP.  Note that T18 boosts SW significantly.  2 piece suggests swapping from DP to SW.   In Sims Seraphim is outperforming by about 4% to 6% in full Mythic gear on Patchwerk.  Given actual fight mechanics and the more average player reaction time, FV is the "safe" choice.  For the average raider, I'd probably recommend SW+FV.   For the advanced and hyperreflexed player, I'd recommend SW+Seraphim on some fights, SW+FV on others as you decide - there are probably burst scenarios where you'll find Seraphim isn't as ideal as on Patchwerk.  If you need to burst NOW and Seraphim's nearing the end of a downperiod you have the issue of using HP for burst or saving it to engage the next Seraphim too late for this burst.   EmpSeal is between Seraph and FV, but it's only 1-2.5% better than FV.  A single fumble of seal swaps could easily net overall loss.  If you can't handle/don't like Seraphim, I'd recommend FV instead of EmpSeal.
  2. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    We'd need a new version of simcraft with the change present to be sure, but I find it unlikely that we'd suddenly want more/less Haste in 6.2.  It ought to be a small overall damage reduction, but no change to scaling.  I'm guesstimating a 0.3% to 0.5% total damage reduction (why did they even bother?  Ret aren't topping charts, and losing half a percent seems an insufficient tweak if a class is overperforming).   Mastery is: 18% + Mastery from gear/gems/enchants/etc   6.2 Mastery will be: 17% + Mastery from gear/gems/enchants/etc   So if today you have 30.12%, in 6.2 you'd have 29.12%.   Q: "Wait, what, we're losing 1%?  But they said a 6% nerf!" A: Yes.  17% is 94.44% of 18%.  That's a 5.6% (round up to 6%) reduction.
  3. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    Typo corrected.  Thanks for pointing it out.  The tier numbers all started to run together for me when we hit the teens.   Sure, there could be, but it's a purely subjective decision.  If the healing is the difference between a kill and a wipe, then it's worth it.  Personally on Gruul I find that people are either going to survive fine, or die to a combination of swipe + something (generally avoidable damage) so quickly that hammer wouldn't have been sufficient, or suffer overkill totalling far more than hammer generates for a target.   Unfortunately it's generally more advantageous to have a DPS with a secondary spec of healing (and practice performing the role) swap - whether it be you as Paladin or someone else.  Sometimes losing a DPS for another healer can swing a fight for your first kill or two.  Then as folks are more familiar with the fight and gear increases your narrow margin victories start to become vast gulfs.
  4. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    T17 2piece updated.  Not sure when that changed or if I just made a typo when I posted it. MoP references will be cleansed when the next tier is released.  I always try to leave the "previous tier" present for folks who may be coming back to WoW after some serious break.  In this case doing SoO for some reason, then leveling to 100.  Whenever T18 comes around it'll be updated to more WoD-only status.   Are there specific choices that need to be more definitive?  At a glance I can see some housekeeping to improve things, but when it comes to choices they all look to remain choices.  What works best for you or on specific fights, such as most talents and glyphs.   Obligatory unrelated comment: Jan 5th they fixed Empowered Seals to remove an extra 30% attack speed it was granting.  This could be why some folks were reporting better results with EmpSeal tests on dummies than Simcraft expected.  The extra 5% Haste EmpSeal grants in 6.1 is unlikely to change Simcraft showing Final Verdict in the lead.
  5. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    Against Patchwerk/Training Dummy, Simcraft should be highly accurate.  Against an actual boss with movement, adds, etc it's not going to match perfectly.  Imperator has some target swaps and phase changes.  It's possible your positioning had you out of melee range at times and thus gaining benefit from the range of Exo and Judge.   Also comparing wipes isn't apples to apples.  In one fight you died, were rezzed nearly 40 seconds later, then died again.  You expect your numbers to match when you're dead for part of the time?  Logs calculate your DPS based on length of fight.   If you crunch the numbers I see: CS+HoL at 11.9k average Judge at 10k average Exo at 12k average   So J>CS looks definitively bad.  And Exo>CS also seems unwise - you're pushing back 11.9k damage by 1/3 of its CD vs pushing back 12k by 1/10th of its CD.  Prioritize Exo>CS 3 times and you lose a CD for the fight.  Prioritize CS>Exo 3 times and you lose 30% of an Exo.   Losing 11.9k vs losing (.3*12k=) 3.6k seems a no-brainer choice.   Seems there's a reason SimCraft likes CS first.   Unrelated They're jiggering the rating->% value on Haste from 100 Haste = 1% to 90 Haste = 1%.  This should increase the relative value of Haste for many/most of us.  I'd hope it'll slip ahead of Versatility in all scenarios, even if it remains not that great after ~15%.
  6. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    We could also have flaws in the Action List for Simcraft.  If we're not modeling our actions properly (or performing them in a sub-optimum order), then we're not getting valid results.  GIGO - garbage in, garbage out.  (For the record, I know Ret isn't Theck's "thing" and the APL is as good as he could figure or as has been submitted to him.  This was not meant to impugn his work.)   About Haste: I thought that 15% could be a Haste plateau (with another at some point where we gained another attack or pushed a lesser attack for a greater), so I ran a plot in Simcraft off my current gear.  The plot is pretty linear - wavering is very tiny.  No big stairstep that would be expected if there was a breakpoint.  Honestly I don't even see something at the 15% mark (since Simcraft also models less Haste on the plot).  Since values are reasonably close, I'll have to plot all stats against each other to see if Haste did pull ahead somewhere in the future.  Given how slow plotting runs, don't expect that soon.   Results continue to state - get Haste around 15% (buffed), seek Mastery and relatively balanced Crit/Multi.   It's also possible that with DP (and to a degree empowered DS) that by 15% Haste we have very few empty GCD.  Haste's major benefit for us is reducing that time when nothing is available.  Gaining more attacks is always going to be better than swapping a low damage attack for a higher one.   This could also be why EmpSeals is modeling so poorly.  The bonus Haste isn't as valuable as those free FV. Teleros - could you add the rating-from-gear for each stat beside the weighting you have above?  I'm curious how much of each was present that generated the weighting.  Such as was there more Crit/Multi gained between sets than Mastery, which is why Mastery advanced in value?
  7. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    Blizz pitched the talents to us in just that fashion - that EmpSeals would require more skill and therefore produce more DPS if used perfectly.  The assumption being the so-so player could only break equal with EmpSeal while the poor (or laggy) player would lose DPS and be better served with the "automatic" talent.   My main issue is DS is less than 1/2 of FV, so even directly after a FV, you're better using FV than DS.  The only reason to use DS at all is the free empowered procs.  Even then you're just using it because it's free and trying to avoid delaying HP generation when you do.
  8. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    Good question.  I think we've all been running with the idea from an earlier iteration of spell values.  FV is 200% weapon damage, while DS is 65%.  Use a FV and your next DS doubles to 130%.  130% < 200%, so it appears spam FV unless empowered DS procs would be superior.   2+ targets then use the DS (130% * 2 = 260% > 200%).
  9. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    To avoid double-dipping and excessive multipliers, years ago Blizz went to a pretty straightforward system.  Sum all flat bonuses (+x).  Sum all attack-specific bonuse (+x% to DS).  Sum all global bonuses (+x% to all/holy damage).   So: Divine Storm + any flat value Multiply by DS modifiers (+50% and +100% = 150%) Multiply by global modifiers (3% Versatility) Anyhoo - I think I'd stick with DP+FV.  Remember that for 3 targets to actually pull ahead you would need all 3 targets to be alive the entire fight, in range the entire fight, needing to die, and not healing-when-compatriat-dies (like many council-ish fights).  If targets die (or spawn and die) for short periods, your overall average is generally somewhere below 2 targets.  If targets aren't in range, you can't cleave with DS or SoR.  And if the targets don't need to die (offtanked entire fight or otherwise ignored), you may be doing more DPS but as wastage (looks good on meter, kills boss more slowly).   How often do we have a fight of that nature?  Every multitarget fight I can think of from MoP fails at least one qualifier (generally healing-on-death or clumping to cleave).
  10. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    First item: I see where Seraphim lives in SimCraft, so it is present. I put together my own action list - weeded out some restrictions I thought were negatively impacting and applied more where I thought necessary. I even tried shifting the seal swaps higher and lower in priority to see if delaying abilities for them was beneficial. Here's the whole Sim tab, not just the action list. With that setup (note the gear used was copied direct from Jourgenson's post), these are my results from highest to lowest. Also note that I increased fight time from default to 600 seconds. In addition to our action list changes, fight length will contribute to variance between our two sets of tests. TalentsDPSLiadrin Up-TimeMaraad Up-TimeCensure Up-TimeSW+Seraphim1973199.60%DP+FV1959399.60%HA+FV1952899.60%SW+FV1949699.60%HA+Seraphim1932899.60%DP+Seraphim1899699.60%SW+EmpSeal1893135.66%70.93%84.30%HA+EmpSeal1863273.40%45.98%85%DP+EmpSeal1839876.07%79.27%85% What should immediately jump to your attention is that EmpSeal causes pretty sizable loss in Censure up-time (14%) and we just don't get anywhere near 100% up-time on either buff. I validated that SimCraft seems to be modeling the buffs properly (autoattacks increased based on Liandrin, and average damage of all attacks was higher due to Maraad). EmpSeal just isn't working as well as anticipated. Unimpressive up-time and some cast pushback is vastly reducing the power of the buffs granted. Unrelated, I notice the gear has Gift of Mastery running - I believe Gift of Haste would be superior (see section 2, below). Results: You'll see that my results had SW+Seraphim as the winner, though ahead of DP+FV by only 0.7%. I'd personally be inclined to go with DP+FV (personal hatred of needing to pool 5 HP for Seraphim) - it's certainly the simpler playstyle. You'd give up the potential for huge burst phases and gain some extra incidental AOE. Second item: Stat Weights I've also run stat scaling with this gear under the DP+FV profile. Increased to 100k runs for greater accuracy. StatValueWeapon DPS2.07Strength1Haste0.39Multistrike0.38Mastery0.38Crit0.36Versatility0.33 As Simcraft phrased it: Wpds > Str > Haste > Mult ~= Mastery > Crit > Vers Str remains king (especially since there are no double-value secondary stat gems). A higher ilvl item with a "worse" selection of secondary stats will likely be superior based on greater value of Str. Haste remains our best secondary stat by a narrow margin, even factoring in Ret's +5% bonus to Mastery. Crit is only undercut by Versatility. Considering the damage reduction portion of Versatility, gearing heavy Versatility for survival on some special fight should reduce your damage, but not cripple it.
  11. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    Preface - I love that you're actively working to provide hard numbers. This is great work.  Once we're confident of end results I'll reference it in the OP with direct link to the appropriate post. To my uneducated eye, it looks like the EmpSeal setup is pretty wonky in the APL. At the least sub-optimal, entirely probable not fully functional, sightly possible detrimental to DPS. We'll see if your tweaks will place it ahead of the hammer-buttons-on-CD pairing of DP+FV (which are both supposedly intended as Blizzard's 'low skill' setups for the less hardcore player). Commentary: Having 7 abilities between SoT and SoR in the list seems odd. Sealswap actions should be consecutive in the list (with SoT before SoR). Both reference the cooldown remaining on Judgment. Why would you only swap seal when the Judgment cooldown is higher than the remaining buff duration? That would guarantee the buff must drop off every single time. Definitely sub-optimal if you had a free GCD somewhere earlier. We want SoT running the majority of the time (on single target). As long as we have the SoR buff, we ought to be swapping back (presuming an empty GCD). I'd recommend something like: actions.single+=/seal_of_truth,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&buff.liadrins_righteousness.remains>=10 This would swap to SoT as long as the SoR buff timer is reasonably high, since we want SoT running the majority of the time (to ensure Censure refreshed, procs of SoT and SoR are now identical). Then: actions.single+=/seal_of_righteousness,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&buff.liadrins_righteousness.remains<=3 This would axe the "Judgment CD higher than remaining buff duration". Both should be down below HP generators and above not-5-HP TV/DS. Definitely below Judgment (so you don't wind up with some weird condition where it never Judges because it sees the other seal buff missing).  I'll also admit confusion as to why 3-HP FV and DS are before some abilities like Judge and Exorcism. We should be generating HP as often and early as we can, only dumping when we're full or every generator (and necessary seal swap) is on CD.   Example: 3 HP, everything but Judgment on CD. Time 0 you Judge, time 1.5 you FV.  Next Judge is 6.0 or later. Time 0 you FV, time 1.5 you Judge.  Next Judge is 7.5 or later (ignoring haste).  Do this enough and you lose entire attacks over the course of a fight. I suspect this ordering also screws with Seraphim usage, since you're less likely to have 5 HP pooled. Speaking of which, I don't see an "Engage Seraphim" action on the list. Shouldn't there be something like "actions.single+=/seraphim" (with all appropriate "if" clauses) somewhere on the list? I'll admit to not being a power-user of Simcraft, but I'd think if the engage isn't an action, it never goes off.  If true, this would mean the reason Seraphim is above EmpSeal is because the current setup for EmpSeal is lowering total DPS. All that said, currently you're showing a 6% swing between 'best' and 'worst'. Even if changes prop up Seraphim and/or EmpSeals, we might be looking at a theoretical 2-3% superiority in best case scenarios. During an actual fight with the mechanics involved, such a narrow margin could easily melt away, or even turn negative if during the heat of action you muff some detail of the more picky action order of seal swaps (or engaging Seraphim often enough and with full duration time-on-target). Even if Seraphim or EmpSeals wins, FV may be better to use 'in the field'. P.S. Check "actions.single+=/judgment,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&((seal.truth&buff.maraads_truth.remainsactions.single+=/exorcism,if=buff.blazing_contempt.up&holy_power<=2&buff.holy_avenger.down" - not sure if that was a copy/paste issue, or if the line is actually screwed up (two open parentheses, no close, and runs into the actions.single for Exo).
  12. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    It's unclear: DivPurp beat Sanctified Wrath and Final Verdict beat Empowered Seals? Or did you simply not test other sets of talents? One of those two would be surprising, both is nigh unbelievable, even with the clear synergy between the talents.
  13. [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)

    The problem with Glyph of IT (when balanced) is time.  If it takes more than 15 seconds to kill a mob, you want to do it faster... which means no glyph is superior.  If it takes less than 15 seconds to kill a mob... do you really care to glyph and cut a second or so off the time?  Yeah, while leveling this could cut a tiny fraction off overall time (I generally spend longer running between mobs than I do killing them, even while leveling), but it's just not terribly useful.   Somewhat unsurprised.  Mandatory glyph again becomes mockable.
  14. Warlords of Draenor paladin discussion

    That's a good point about FV and AOE.  However, the +100% and +50% are guaranteed to be additive, not multiplicative.  They would definitely be 250% weapon damage, not 300%. Still, let's napkin math a comparison. Vanilla DS DS = 65% Weapon DS after bonus proc = 97.5% Weapon (and free, so additional DS for cost at 65%) = 162.5% 75% chance of normal DS, 25% chance of bonus proc.  We can blend the two for an average. DS Blended (75% * 65%) + (25% * 162.5%) = 89.375% Every 2 strikes totals (178.75% per target) FV+DS FV = 200% Weapon DS after FV = 65% * 2 = 130% Weapon DS after FV if bonus proc = 65% * 2.5 = 162.5% Weapon (and free, so additional DS for cost at 65%) = 227.5% DS Blended = (75% * 130%) + (25% * 227.5%) = 154.375% Every 2 strikes totals: 200% + (154.375% per target) SealTwisting DS Each DS gains 15% AP - we'll pretend this is 15% overall damage. Each DS also gains 15% haste.  So we'll also pretend 15% more DS over a fight. So every 2 strikes becomes: 178.75% * 1.15 * 1.15 = 236.97% per target TargetsDSFV+DSSealTwisting DS 2357.5%508.75%472.79% 3536.25%663.13%709.19% 4715%817.5%945.59% 5893.75%971.88%1181.98% 61072.5%1126.25%1418.38% 71251.25%1280.63%1654.78% 81430%1435%1891.18% 91608.75%1589.38%2127.57% So 9 targets before DS pulls ahead of FV+DS, however at 3 targets seal twisting is superior.  Given more/harder HotR as well as Judge and Exo, seal twisting is likely to tie or win at 2 targets.  Also, remember these numbers drop in a fight that is not full-time multi-target. Bottom line - if you're comfortable seal twisting, that appears to continue to be the win, except possibly in a perfect two-target-constantly fight.  If you're uncomfortable seal twisting and run with FV, then using FV and DS in alternation is better than DS spam.
  15. Warlords of Draenor paladin discussion

    SoR tweak is major quality of life improvement.  SoR pulls ahead of SoT immediately at 2 targets.  Seal Twisting would be a bit easier - you wouldn't have weaker seal procs while SoR is up.  You have the full Censure window to judge and swap back, since SoR proc should match SoT proc.