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      Forum Rules (Updated 3/22/14)   07/14/10

      Welcome to the Elitist Jerks forums, a WoW discussion forum targeted towards topics regarding high-end raiding and analysis of game mechanics. We ask you to take a few minutes to read the following before making use of these forums.   First, a point of clarification. The name of these forums is not intended ironically; we have high standards for the discussion that occurs herein, and we're quite unapologetic about it. If you feel our rules are stupid or arbitrary, we don't really care. If you don't wish to follow them, you're welcome to return to the official Blizzard forums.   Following is a brief listing of our forum rules; note that it is by no means exhaustive, as in our experience people are quite innovative in finding new ways to be stupid. These are simply a set of guidelines to get you started in the right direction. If you follow them, you will generally do fine here; however, if you concoct some creative new form of stupidity, our moderators feel no need to restrain themselves in letting you know. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. Do not break a single quoted reply into multiple blocks; doing so needlessly lengthens your post without aiding its readability. And don't provide unnecessary backstory: if it isn't relevant to the question you're asking or the point you're making, we don't need to know about it. All discussion should be both polite and civil. Trolling or flaming in any form is forbidden. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are stupid or on drugs and their personal hygiene isn't really relevant to the discussion. Regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument, it should be made in a way that is neither insulting nor condescending. Whining in any form is forbidden. Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over and neither is anyone else. If all you're going to do is complain, don't bother posting. Threads should be started if and only if there is some reasonable topic to discuss. If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it. Some sub-forums restrict new members from creating new topics unless they've made at least 10 approved posts, to prevent spamming or bad posts. If you really think it deserves a new thread before you have 10 posts, contact a moderator with your post content. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.) Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting. Do not sign your posts. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. No Advertising. Do not make posts solely for the purpose of advertising your site/blog/twitch/etc. You may post such things if it's relevant and adds to discussion at hand. If you have information to share, share it here with a link back to your blog or whatever. Do not post "I have information, come to my site to get it". That will result in an immediate infraction and post removal. Also, we will remove any link to a site that violates a games TOS/EULA such as gold selling sites.

      If you violate a forum rule, you will receive an infraction. Most infractions are worth one point, although we reserve the right to give you more at any time if we feel you deserve them. If you accumulate too many infraction points, you will receive an automatic (usually temporary) ban which revokes your posting privileges, as follows: 3 Points - 1 Day 5 Points - 3 Days 8 Points - 1 Week 10 Points - 1 Month 15 Points - Permanent

      Familiarize yourself with The Banhammer, an archive of all infractions given by the moderators here; it will give you some examples of what not to do. Also feel free to take a gander over The Dung Heap, which will give you a good idea of what these forums would look like if we weren't such jerks.   Thank you for joining the discussion!


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  1. Warlords of Draenor death knight discussion

    Nevernite, your response was good.  But you failed to address the core of Conser's question, what about scaling?  The proper answer of course, is forget scaling.  Scaling is almost always the wrong word to use.   http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/251356-a-discussion-of-gear-scaling/   Aside from all the excellent points illustrated by GC in that blue post, you also have to remember that since this is an online game, everything can change when it needs to.  Everything is rebalanced with every major content patch, to account for the different gear available to players.  So even if scaling is an issue, it isn't an issue.   But maybe I'm overcomplicating things.  Most people who cite "scaling" as a justification for a complaint either don't understand the game design, or understand it, don't like it, and don't want to say so directly.  It's a one word shortcut used to make an argument sound smart without actually stating and supporting the argument itself.  I know this site isn't as strict as it used to be, but "scaling" is henceforth in the same category as "hunter shot rotation macro."  It's dumb and lazy, don't even bring it up.
  2. Some people do the screenshot thing.  I like to save the simc results and then open that saved file.  Simc saves results as standard html so they open in your default web browser, and then you can just right click to save any images as you normally do.
  3. Frost DPS 5.4 - Howling Blargh

    There are two big differences between the rotations (mastersimple removes Obliterate and Soul Reaper completely) and a few smaller differences (abilities that restore resources like ERW and PL, and abilities that use unholy runes like PS and DnD are moved the the end of the priority).   For both rotations you want as little haste as possible.  Choose gear without haste if you can, and reforge out of any haste you can't avoid.  While Ask Mr. Robot is a fantastic tool, its biggest weakness is its default stat weights.  Sometimes they are very wrong, as in this case.*  But even when they're right, they're tuned for some generalized character other than your own.  If you use simulationcraft to input your own weights, the Mr Robot tool becomes even better.   * Some time in late T15, the DK community discovered an oversight in our theorycrafting that was causing the sim to overvalue haste for all specs.  So if Mr. Robot is telling you to choose haste gear as DW Frost, it's not for no good reason.  It's just using old information, and we have better data now.
  4. Frost DPS 5.4 - Howling Blargh

    First, the Soul Reaper priority condition doesn't have the same restrictions as the Howling Blast condition does. According to that priority, if both frost runes or both death runes are off cooldown, you should use HB. If one rune is off cooldown and one is on cooldown, and target is below 35% (or will be in 5 seconds), you should use SR. Your rune state affects your priority decisions. Second, that's the old "mastercomplicated" DW frost priority. Mendenbarr has shown that with high mastery attainable with T16 gear, "mastersimple" is a higher dps priority. Mastersimple removes Soul Reaper and Obliterate from the action list and never uses those abilities. Always use HB instead of SR, even below 35%, and always use Death and Decay or Plague Strike instead of Obliterate, even if you have two unholy runes available.
  5. Where did you get that stat priority?  Did you get it from a web site, from your own feelings, or from simulationcraft results?  The best way to find a stat priority for choosing gear upgrades is to run a 10k+ iteration simulation of your own character armory with scaling factors turned on for the stats you're interested in comparing.  At a minimum, check the boxes for strength, crit, haste, and mastery.  Weapon dps is also useful.  Attack power, hit, and expertise may be interesting but shouldn't affect your gear decisions, so you don't need to compare those.   If you're more interested in gearing for the end goal than your current status, Mendenbarr (the frost and unholy guide author here and at Icy Veins) has a lot of great information on his personal blog that will probably answer your question.  You can find that here:   http://www.destinysoftworks.com/
  6. Worth it compared to what?  Breaking the set bonus for warforged off set pieces gets you more stats, and maybe you can get closer to the perfect stats.  But will that make up the 2-3% damage the set bonus was giving you?   Probably not, but if you want to make sure you can replace an item or two in your gear set in the Ask Mr. Robot web tool.  Then optimize gems and reforges in the new gear set, and export it as a simulationcraft profile.  In simc, import your character from the armory, and then paste the text from Mr. Robot at the end of the armory profile.  The sim will run both at the same time and let you compare and see which is better.   For what it's worth, 2-3% does seem representative, not just an individual anecdote.  Here are some sim evaluations for how much set bonuses do (for all 3 specs) at a few different gear levels:   http://www.destinysoftworks.com/2013/09/frost-4-set-mistake.html
  7. Rules will be enforced less strictly in this thread.  Hopefully people will be mature and contribute and I won't have to moderate here at all.  Things that are specifically allowed here but not elsewhere include wishlisting, armchair design, feelings and reactions, conjecture, and opinion.  Discussion is as always open to theorycrafting and game play, but things like art that are normally off topic are also included.   Posters still need to use clear and polite language.  And while the objective quality of post content won't be enforced here, posts still do have to have content.  "Here is how I feel about this feature, and why" is a good post.  "I am happy / sad / angry about this feature and am / am not going to resub because of it" is not a good post.   This thread will be locked at the end of the beta when the expansion goes live.  Have fun!
  8. No, it's better to use the rune for a howling blast (or soul reaper). If you have an unholy rune available already, then it's good to use a frost or death rune for obliterate. But don't hold on to them. Not only is howling blast a stronger attack in terms of damage per rune, holding on to resources interrupts our resource feedback loop. When you spend runes, you gain runic power. And when you spend runic power, you gain runes.
  9. Mastery does have a cap, but it's a soft cap, and very situational.  If your blood shield is consistently expiring before it's used up, you have more mastery than you need.  Where that point is for you is something you have to decide for yourself, and it may well not be an issue.   Your parry is significantly higher than your dodge for several reasons. You're using the swordshattering runeforge.  This parry isn't affected by diminishing returns (and is therefore excluded from the parry / dodge balance formulae) as parry rating is, but it also doesn't grant crit from riposte as parry rating does. Strength from gear grants parry (but again, not parry rating). Dodge suffers from twice as much diminishing return as parry does. Tank gear this expansion just has a lot of parry on it. In order to maximize avoidance in theory we should make sure our dodge and parry are properly balanced to reduce diminishing returns.  But if we do that, our gains are going to be very small and there's a hidden cost.  When we parry, our next autoattack swing (white damage hit) is hasted.  More melee attacks means more scent of blood procs, more blood worms, and more personal dps.  And unlike parry, dodge doesn't do this.   So if you carefully reforge and select gems to balance your avoidance stats you're not doing things wrong.  But not doing that is fine too.
  10. You're asking two different questions -- how should plague leech be best used, and how (and if) obliterate should be used.  And there's a third hidden question you didn't ask, but that may help you -- why you shouldn't use unholy blight.   DW frost with the latest patch wants to use as much resources as possible (runes, runic power, and less obviously, available global cooldowns) for howling blast and frost strike.  At normal attack power levels, one soul reaper (below 35%) is worth more than one howling blast.  And one obliterate is worth more than one howling blast and one plague strike.  But both of these are barely true so you can completely ignore soul reaper and obliterate with only a small dps loss.   You do want to be spending your unholy runes on something in order to have them available for blood tap to convert into death runes for more howling blast.*  This means that outbreak and unholy blight are completely wasted global cooldowns, using either of them will actually hurt your dps.  In most situations plague leech is also a wasted GCD.  But you've probably noticed that while you're usually GCD-capped, sometimes all your abilities are on cooldown or otherwise not available.  That's when you can use plague leech, as a last option on your priority.  It fills an open GCD, and gives you resources to resume pushing buttons.   * You don't want to always leave one unholy rune open unless you're using runic empowerment instead of blood tap.  But simulation and theory both show that BT is a better choice.  RE does give you more total resources.  But some of those will be wasted at times when you're resource-capped while BT lets you bank them for later.
  11. Do you have BT included in a macro with a different ability? If you don't have any frost runes (or death runes) available, any abilities that use a frost rune will be on cooldown until the runes are available again.
  12. Otou you're saying that point for point, avoidance is better than mastery for survival, and better than haste for dps. You talk about how the stats and abilities work together to make this so. But it sounds like people who cite "scaling" without any further justification for an argument. Maybe you're right. And maybe you did some theorycrafting math, or ran some sims*, or analyzed some logs, and maybe that work supports your conclusions. But you didn't share that work. * Note that the blood SimC model is inaccurate and is a current development focus. Until the SimC devs sign off on it, and the community has checked their work, I can't trust sims to tell me about the value of stats for blood. You're very sure of your information. But I'm not sure about it at all, and even if you're right for the players who do the best job anticipating and reacting to damage, that doesn't represent all DK tanks. For now, I will continue to recommend what I already have been. Mastery and stamina are survival stats. Dodge, parry, strength, and haste are stats that help with both survival and dps.Parry is better than strength for dps. Strength does raise the vengeance AP floor, but doesn't affect riposte. [*]As you gain more of a stat, the other helpful stats increase in relative value. Unless you're very sure of what you're doing, gearing for any stat to the exclusion of others may not be optimal. I'm deliberately not including stat weights with relative values.
  13. Hopefully Tyvi will update the guide for 5.4 soon. Until then, here's an overview of the changes to DK tanks. Dodge and parry have new benefits for death knight tanks. Riposte is a new passive ability. It increases your crit rating by 75% of your dodge and parry rating. Scent of blood has a chance to proc when you dodge or parry an attack. These are nice quality-of-life changes, but won't change your stat preferences for choosing gear. If you're gearing for mastery for survival before 5.4, you still will after. And if you're gearing for haste and crit for damage before 5.4, you still will after. Typically players who tank 25s will care more about survival and those who tank 10s will care more about damage. [*]Dancing Rune Weapon no longer has an activation cost. [*]Antimagic Zone is redesigned. It is now a 40% reduction to all magic damage for 3 seconds, instead of a 75% reduction up to a cap. This eliminates some niche uses, but is useful more often now. [*]Some new glyphs were added. Glyph of Festering Blood improves aoe snap threat and damage. Glyph of Regenerative Magic can sometimes reduce the cooldown on Antimagic Shell. [*]The tier 16 armor set bonuses are good, you should try to get them. 2P Every 10 Heart Strikes, Rune Strikes, Death Coils, Soul Reapers, or Blood Boils will add one charge to your next Bone Shield. 4P Dancing Rune Weapon will reactivate all Frost and Unholy runes and convert them to Death runes. This is particularly attractive when combined with the removed activation cost for DRW. [*]The legendary cloak can prevent you from dying. If a hit would kill you and you have both the cloak and the Purgatory talent, only one effect will proc per hit. [*]Tyvi already gave an analysis of the 5.4 trinket options, you can read it here: link.
  14. Frost DPS 5.4 - Howling Blargh

    Mendenbarr has updated the guide for patch 5.4 and tier 16. Please continue to use the thread for discussion of the spec (and the "simple questions" thread for things that you feel may earn you an infraction if asked here). But be aware that earlier posts in the thread aside from the first post may be inaccurate as they refer to an older version of the game.
  15. I was asked in irc for a weak aura I use. Here it is. dudlcaGEQeVukPDPi2gjzFavnxHWSL0njLYTvk7Kk2lA3G2pvQ(PqQHPW4KsnyHOHlshKuQogjoNIQfkILkuwSqYYf8uvltr65qMiPetvQMmPy6u(TexM46qTrQuonvTzsQTdKplkFfOY0evFxr58KQVjLy0kX4bkpwP6wujDnHQ7rkPdd4VsXZustf25341WRHD(9sTeyNok0T45RZvLRmFmTTQvL2Tq1UgFLoR0nvQYhQgkThR5ZJVoDq1UgpNgFqY8fyxpv4nbmdheEtaZWbHVlGz4GGI4PsTQ9DZdcW8fy0GKqfqhfH2aKkYcLTgWjaPfiVE0QvJeJokJbVxdVJmJFMxJTqN8XGhI36bFwMeq0rHVwa0WopgjniVlcJIpuQc78B4Q5zNgnEmsAqPYot4XiPzVSffGXeEuQSZopYdZQcDMsJh5DryNh5HzvH3ei)gUAE25nbYeEBManD1Eqct4r7cei4lmHpfiy6mHgnA8wWNLjb25n9uHhzaggXlGeOXRfbWwCpYwH(SfZ9iJHHcpgjnyO3ycpgUuQ6XWqb1usLaGvc8GxR8yK0GHlLQEmmuqmHhdxkv9yyOG4v4dyOqNbpgkGeOXdGTcnA8iELj5tAzIYGheDuYhdAK