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      Welcome to the Elitist Jerks forums, a WoW discussion forum targeted towards topics regarding high-end raiding and analysis of game mechanics. We ask you to take a few minutes to read the following before making use of these forums.   First, a point of clarification. The name of these forums is not intended ironically; we have high standards for the discussion that occurs herein, and we're quite unapologetic about it. If you feel our rules are stupid or arbitrary, we don't really care. If you don't wish to follow them, you're welcome to return to the official Blizzard forums.   Following is a brief listing of our forum rules; note that it is by no means exhaustive, as in our experience people are quite innovative in finding new ways to be stupid. These are simply a set of guidelines to get you started in the right direction. If you follow them, you will generally do fine here; however, if you concoct some creative new form of stupidity, our moderators feel no need to restrain themselves in letting you know. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. 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If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it. Some sub-forums restrict new members from creating new topics unless they've made at least 10 approved posts, to prevent spamming or bad posts. If you really think it deserves a new thread before you have 10 posts, contact a moderator with your post content. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. 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We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting. Do not sign your posts. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. No Advertising. Do not make posts solely for the purpose of advertising your site/blog/twitch/etc. You may post such things if it's relevant and adds to discussion at hand. If you have information to share, share it here with a link back to your blog or whatever. Do not post "I have information, come to my site to get it". That will result in an immediate infraction and post removal. Also, we will remove any link to a site that violates a games TOS/EULA such as gold selling sites.

      If you violate a forum rule, you will receive an infraction. Most infractions are worth one point, although we reserve the right to give you more at any time if we feel you deserve them. If you accumulate too many infraction points, you will receive an automatic (usually temporary) ban which revokes your posting privileges, as follows: 3 Points - 1 Day 5 Points - 3 Days 8 Points - 1 Week 10 Points - 1 Month 15 Points - Permanent

      Familiarize yourself with The Banhammer, an archive of all infractions given by the moderators here; it will give you some examples of what not to do. Also feel free to take a gander over The Dung Heap, which will give you a good idea of what these forums would look like if we weren't such jerks.   Thank you for joining the discussion!
    • Site Maintenance (Updated 11-12-15)   10/01/15

      Site has been updated to IPS as of 12 November Known Issues So Far: Old wowhead "item" tags are depricated. They may be re-added to fix some issues with older guides, but for most part it's better to just use the modern wowhead.js which auto parses actual wowhead links automatically into tooltips/names. Just post wowhead links in guides and the js will do the rest. You don't need a special BB code for items. Old article links will be broken do to IPS 4 changing url path to remove some pointless "/_/" directory. The articles are still there and can be found in guides menu. You just may not be able to click links from any threads linking to them without editing out the "/_/" part of url. I'll fix most of this little by little when more important stuff is taken care of. External links/google search results may run into same problem. That will just rely on waiting for google to reindex new paths. After you login, you may be thrown to an error page saying page cannot be found if you logged in from the forum index. Harmless though. Just click "forums" and you'll get forum index since redirect after login is busted. The benefactors bar seems to hang/timeout sometimes.


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  1. Warlords of Draenor rogue discussion

    That'd just mean that you'd pool less energy. I don't really see how it would make the spec any harder to play.
  2. Warlords of Draenor rogue discussion

    I think there are better ways to implement control over BG. Using RvS to delay insight doesn't make a whole lot of sense thematically; looking at it you'd think that a revealing strike would grant you greater insight. What's more, with deep insight being 50% more damage, it's not something you'd feel good about delaying. So I'd rather see RvS remade to have charges, and be used to advance insight levels.
  3. What comes to mind is that it would have to be a debuff that was both severe and long-lasting for it to effect EP-values by a noticeable margin. And, I'm being presumptuous now, those are the kind of debuffs you can, for the most part, avoid by proper planning and positioning.   On the other hand I wouldn't put it past blizzard making a fight with some crucial burn phase that has a hit-debuff (or some other shit) just to throw a wrench into stat weights. In which case it'd be neat if SC could handle the potential GCD-capping, energy/cp starvation, and debuff-downtime.   So I wouldn't blame you if you axed it. Especially if it opens up for higher precision in other parts of the modelling.   But it got me thinking that you have to be making some assumptions/simplifications in how SC handles missing right now, since if you had a 'perfect' model, it would cower breaks in combat as an extreme case of miss-percentage. So to what extent (% of miss) is the current model applicable?   ---   I think you're mostly right about the known issues thing, with the exception of how the reforge/gem tool works. It gets asked about all the time. But that's the kind of thing that can just as easily be handled by incorporating it in the OP of the relevant thread(s).   As for gear recommendations, I personally don't see the need. There have been ~two pieces per slot each tier, and in WoD there will be no hit/expertise to muddy the waters. You can simply open the drop-down menu and get a list that should be accurate all but the most special cases. The flip side of that is that it'll be less costly to compute gear-upgrades, making it more feasible to implement such a function. 
  4. [5.4 Combat] I'm Not Dead Yet

    There's a latency parameter in the settings, right above professions.
  5. ShadowCraft for Mists of Pandaria

    I'd wager the difference in relative value of the two gearsets between AMR and SC is down to the set-bonus.   AMR optimizes gear based on stat and trinket weights. It gets those weights from tools like shadowcraft. But the weights in AMR are the same for every rogue unless you manually change them; presumably by exporting them from SC. That doesn't work so well with set-bonuses.
  6. Rogue Simple Questions

    There is no magic number.
  7.   This is a good point, and one I did account for when estimating the value of 10 energy. But I simply did something similar to saying that 1/4 times that 10 energy will mean an additional ambush. (Actually it was a little more conservative then that, but I don't have time to lay out all the details right now.) If you are very consistent in your energy management, that need not reflect reality. So if it's never the case that you get an additional ambush, then the difference between using and not using rupture during FW becomes smaller, but it's still slightly in favor of rupture.   Also, (10/35 * your average backstab) is a lower bound for the value of 10 energy, but not a decent estimate for it.
  8. I misunderstood you then. But the point still stands, if one is better than the other at some point during FW, then it is better at all points. (Except at the end of the fight, where you might waste rupture ticks.)   Keeping that exception in mind, let me draw a hypothetical to illustrate my point. Imagine that rupture, rather than being a dot, was a finisher with a 24s cooldown that did unmitigated damage. Delaying the application of rupture is essentially the same as delaying such an ability.
  9. If what you think is true, that eviscerate is higher DPE during FW than rupture is, then there would never be a time where you would use rupture over eviscerate during FW.
  10.   DPE is relevant in most cases, and this is no exception. That 10 energy is worth (on average) 80k damage for me, (I'd look you up but it's not as easy as it once was. A-hem.). So your eviscerates would have to do (on average) 80k more damage than your ruptures. Looking at your log, your average rupture did 417k, and an unmitgated eviscerate would do close to 15% more than that, so about 480k. That's less than the 507k it would have to do to break even.   It's possible that since you're not using rupture during FW your (average) rupture damage is somewhat inflated, and the margin might be closer than that, but I very much doubt that it changes the conclusion.
  11. Rogue Simple Questions

    I'd suggest looking at the 'dps-timeline' that simC shows if you want to know more about how the damage of a given spec varies throughout a fight.
  12. 5.4 Subtlety Reborn

    SC gives the opposite if you choose hemo over backstab as your cp-builder. The damage breakdown looks decidedly odd: Hemo: 'None of the above': Autoattack 63222.3 Eviscerate 50476.4 Hemorrhage 40312.3 Shadow Blades 9250.4 SB with SD: Autoattack 60704.1 Eviscerate 50767.7 Hemorrhage 37422.7 Shadow Blades 9250.2 Backstab /w hemo: 'None of the above': Autoattack 63212.6 Eviscerate 50697.3 Backstab 46528.5 Shadow Blades 9249.0 SB with SD: Autoattack 60697.1 Eviscerate 55034.9 Backstab 52512.1 Shadow Blades 9249.2
  13. ShadowCraft for Mists of Pandaria

    The thing is that SC is a tool for figuring out how to gear more than it is a tool for accurately estimating DPS. And while it would be of some use (though somewhat complicated) to say something about how certain kinds of breaks in 'time spent on boss' would effect stat weights, it would be much more difficult to create a general approach enabling SC to handle every kind of boss fight and strategy, and spit out a decent DPS-estimate. It's also worth noting that blizzard doesn't base their tuning off calculations (or simulations) alone. In fact they go off of logs just as much, if not more, exactly because they know the assumptions made by calcs and sims.
  14. ShadowCraft for Mists of Pandaria

    Mastery and haste are closer in value, and agility has (barely) overtaken haste for me. RPPM-mechanics was just one of the contributing factors to hastes high value, so while it has gone down, it's nothing extreme.
  15. Assassination from the Mists

    With my gear it looks something like this: One CP will give you 5+3/5s of rupture or ~62k damage from envenom. So each tick you cut off is equivalent to a ~22k damage loss. A rupture with applied with fully stacked renataki's is something like a ~45k damage increase compared to one without. So it's a slight increase to cut it before the second to last tick, and a bit of a wash to do it any earlier.