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      Welcome to the Elitist Jerks forums, a WoW discussion forum targeted towards topics regarding high-end raiding and analysis of game mechanics. We ask you to take a few minutes to read the following before making use of these forums.   First, a point of clarification. The name of these forums is not intended ironically; we have high standards for the discussion that occurs herein, and we're quite unapologetic about it. If you feel our rules are stupid or arbitrary, we don't really care. If you don't wish to follow them, you're welcome to return to the official Blizzard forums.   Following is a brief listing of our forum rules; note that it is by no means exhaustive, as in our experience people are quite innovative in finding new ways to be stupid. These are simply a set of guidelines to get you started in the right direction. If you follow them, you will generally do fine here; however, if you concoct some creative new form of stupidity, our moderators feel no need to restrain themselves in letting you know. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. 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If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it. Some sub-forums restrict new members from creating new topics unless they've made at least 10 approved posts, to prevent spamming or bad posts. If you really think it deserves a new thread before you have 10 posts, contact a moderator with your post content. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.) Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting. Do not sign your posts. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. No Advertising. Do not make posts solely for the purpose of advertising your site/blog/twitch/etc. You may post such things if it's relevant and adds to discussion at hand. If you have information to share, share it here with a link back to your blog or whatever. Do not post "I have information, come to my site to get it". That will result in an immediate infraction and post removal. Also, we will remove any link to a site that violates a games TOS/EULA such as gold selling sites.

      If you violate a forum rule, you will receive an infraction. Most infractions are worth one point, although we reserve the right to give you more at any time if we feel you deserve them. If you accumulate too many infraction points, you will receive an automatic (usually temporary) ban which revokes your posting privileges, as follows: 3 Points - 1 Day 5 Points - 3 Days 8 Points - 1 Week 10 Points - 1 Month 15 Points - Permanent

      Familiarize yourself with The Banhammer, an archive of all infractions given by the moderators here; it will give you some examples of what not to do. Also feel free to take a gander over The Dung Heap, which will give you a good idea of what these forums would look like if we weren't such jerks.   Thank you for joining the discussion!
    • Site Maintenance   10/01/15

      Beginning Thursday (Oct 1st), Elitist Jerks will under maintenance to upgrade to the new IPS 4.0 software. This upgrade will bring new features and better performance to the site all around.  We expect site to be down at least a few hours since EJ has a massively large database that needs updating and verification.-Complete After upgrade, some features will be missing or broken initially but will be quickly addressed throughout the coming days. Forums will work day one and it's little things like bookmarks and Pages modules that may need updating. -In Progress Update: Appears background cron processes hung up the site for about an hour on Tuesday, October 6th, while it was unmonitored. Site has been restored but may have to be briefly taken down again to see why they hung the servers to prevent it from happening again. Known Issues So Far: Recent Posts/Topics seems to be stuck on pretty much all non forum pages. This appears to be a bug in IPS with no known solution at the moment.White space is being wasted causing forums to be too slim. There are plans to address this.Guild Homepage is currently disabled because of bug number 1. It'll be restored if a way can be found to address bug 1, but that may involve opening a ticket with IPS and awaiting a fix, if a local fix cannot be found.Spoiler tags didn't import correctly in upgrade. They still work but aren't applied to post until you edit/save post at least once. Just hitting edit then save immediately will fix spoiler tags.-Fixedurl tags also imported strangely.Old wowhead "item" tags are depricated. They may be re-added to fix some issues with older guides, but for most part it's better to just use the modern wowhead.js which auto parses actual wowhead links automatically into tooltips/names. Just post wowhead links in guides and the js will do the rest. You don't need a special BB code for items.There is a weird broken image under everyones name in their posts.-FixedOld article links will be broken do to IPS 4 changing url path to remove some pointless "/_/" directory. The articles are still there and can be found in guides menu. You just may not be able to click links from any threads linking to them without editing out the "/_/" part of url. I'll fix most of this little by little when more important stuff is taken care of. External links/google search results may run into same problem. That will just rely on waiting for google to reindex new paths.DBM landing page Announcement/News feeds are borked. No better way to describe it then that. DBM news can still be read in the DBM News subforum without issue.-FixedWith 9 fixed, now DBM page also has the post/topic feed bug (bug number 1).After you login, you are thrown to an error page saying page cannot be found if you logged in from the forum index. Harmless though. Just click "forums" and you'll get forum index since redirect after login is busted.


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About Belatar

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    Glass Joe
  • Birthday 01/01/95

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  • Character Name Belatar
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Belatar's Activity

  1. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)   

    Beta + PTR build 18888 WoD
     Paladin (Forums, Talent Calculator)
    Hammer of Wrath now does 169% of Spell Power damage, down from 211%. Talents
    Divine Purpose (Protection) - Shield of the Righteous replaced Light of Dawn. Divine Purpose (Retribution) - Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm replaced Light of Dawn. Empowered Seals now has spec specific tooltips. Judgment of Righteousness bonus now increases your haste by 15% for 20 sec. up from 10%. Final Verdict now does 200% of weapon damage, up from 185%. Holy Shield now requires a shield. Seraphim now increases Haste, Critical Strike, Mastery, Multistrike, Versatility, and Bonus Armor by 6,550 for 15 sec, down from 9,826. Protection
    Guarded by the Light now grants 15% of your maximum mana every 5 sec, up from every 2 sec. Retribution
    Templar's Verdict now does 200% of weapon damage, up from 185%.
  2. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 6.2 WoD] Retribution Concordance (RetCon)   

    Awesome work, thanks again. Here we go again
  3. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day   

    Does anybody have a beta account yet and could do some testing? Or maybe even access to those special lvl 100 servers with raid dummies?
  4. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day   

    It might be wiser, more accurate and faster to just simulate your toon in SimC with manually changing the strength values. There is a little more to strength than just weapon dps (the spellpower, which increases spelldmg which is amplified by mastery I think, etc.).
  5. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day   

    I read in some guide by a Ret Pally, that as soon as you have 4pc 
    you would only push haste to 40% (instead of 50 or even beyond) and that Divine Purpose becomes superior to Sanctified Wrath as well for single target Unfortunately no rationale is given and my simc runs with my toon say otherwise. Can anyone argue for or against this with any reasonable math? Does ability lag come into play? Does TV become so strong with a certain amount of mastery (I would be able to push 70% if I go for it)?
    Any comments / thoughts welcome, thanks,
  6. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day   

    This is always a matter of when the damage is needed. Ji-Kun is a good example for that. If you are having trouble bringing down the nests in time, you´ll glyph mexo. If the nests go fine but you are running into the enrage timer you won´t. Always depends not only on the fight but how you and your raid approaches it.
    Overall DPS and HPS is a nice benchmark for comparisons and optimization, but are not very useful for determining individual setups for fights.
  7. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day   

    Thanks for pointing this very basic point out. That has been on my mind for quite some time now.

    To really get the optimal gemming / enchanting / reforging strategy for ones gear, simc would need to sim every possible combination and then give the best one as a result.
    The computing time for this would be ridiculously high, so I will stick with feeding askmrrobot with the results from simc. Damage output with this strategy is not bad, so I can live with the inherent error.
  8. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day   

    Well, maybe GC is getting the reason wrong why "pallys love DS". I can only speak for myself of course, but the reason why I indeed like DS better than the other AE (!) spells is, that

    1) it has 10y range AND
    2) you don`t need a target in melee range in front of you to make it work

    The most annoying thing for me in AE situations, especially with lots of low HP adds that die quickly is, that often enough your target dies before you can get in range to use that mexo or HotR, or somebody pulls aggro and the target moves away or there is random aggro.... for that reason I even started using macros for all my AE spells with /targetenemy [noexists] which is quite ridiculous but the only way to not loose further dps of our already weak and very conditional AE to targeting issues.
    With all my mouseover Holy macros I am around thirty macros for my pally alone and could use some more slots.

    mexo: Needs to be glyphed, target in melee range in front of you, losing single target dmg for not being able to use exo at range
    hotr: Only on target in melee range in front of you
    LH: Talent, inferior on single target, 1 min CD, static on the floor, with the amount of movement necessary in fights rarely hits all targets and/or with all ticks

    So, any way they are doing this 4pc I would like some kind of effect best that buffs our next TV or DS (our choice what we use/need next).
    Generally if I could choose I would slightly prefer a buff to sustained single target, closely followed by less targeting issues and more range in AE, maybe together with a slight buff to SoR for a small buff in AE damage. Only daydreaming...
    Or maybe 4pc bonus that makes AE spells refresh SoT on all targets that are hit? Multi-dot pallys ftw, but would probably kill LH... hmmm, not really an option.
  9. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day   

    Nature? I´ll go hug some trees -.-

    All these announcements to me sound totally devoid of any long term vision for paladins. Using nature sounds pretty desperate to me, like they can`t balance anything else (did somebody say holy) considering the current mechanics. Changing a 4pc entirely including mechanics and type of damage in mid-PTR does not sound like the pursuit of long term design goals. The good news is, they`re being responsive, but to me those responses only open up more questions and insecurities at the moment.
    With more and more raids being 10-man, they would need to make all classes better allrounders, because even in an optimal setup you can`t have all classes and specs in a 10 man. Instead there is open talk about wanting to push Ret even further into the single-target burst-only niche.

    Very curious what is up next and a little worried. Hopefully they do come around and provide us with some paladiny bonus (and maybe sets? *cough*).
    Sorry, not helping theorycrafting with this, I know, but had to get that out...
  10. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day   

    Ravicana, what you are describing points even more to some breakpoints ( thresholds may be the better word). I think it is too early to disregard if not fixed but at least calculable thresholds entirely, because a few comments indicate towards them.
    It is true that when you are quite close to a threshold differences will be small, but it is also true that you might miss a lot of possible dps when in the middle between thresholds without respecting that in your gems and enchants.
    Anyway I think this discussion is more of a basic argument for developers of reforge and sim tools and not of direct practical use for players like you and me. But if out of it could come adjustments / optimizations to the tools for everyday use, then its still worthwhile.
  11. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day   

    Following the idea of weapon dps effecting value of haste I ran a few sims (100k iterations) again. I used T14N BiS as base and only changed the weapon each time. wspeed is the same for all weapons (3.6). Of course I allowed mrrobot to optimize gems/enchants/reforges every time, so that caps were met. Talent was SW for all. These are the results (the wdps value is taken from the mrrobot tooltip, it is NOT the scale factor from simc):

    [iTEM]86386[/iTEM] N|4468.2|9525|15911|1.49|3.50|1.3599|1.1462
    [iTEM]87176[/iTEM] H|5043.5|9199|16068|1.61|3.50|1.5350|1.2385
    [iTEM]87176[/iTEM] H+2|5433.9|9595|16176|1.55|3.52|1.6539|1.1923

    I reran the sim for Shinka H+2 a few times because it broke the tendency, but got the same results again. The last two columns I tried to figure out, whether there was some linear connection between wdps and haste importance. Correlation does not seem to be a simple one though. With +1 wdps haste scale seems to grow between 0.3-0.5, but that might be to farfetched and is not true anymore for Shinka H+2.

    A few deductions:

    Haste does NOT seem to be better than strength between 9200 - 9600 haste (EDIT: though @aylen86 sees haste stronger again at 12k haste -.- Need to run those sims again with T14HC BiS as base...)
    wdps strongly influences importance of haste
    No simple breakpoints for haste to be seen. My previous sims indicated to a breakpoint around 7250 haste, @pedjaland seemed to have a change in importance of haste between 8800 and 9100, @aylen86 confirms the breakpoint at 8800 but now at 12k haste sees haste ahead again...

    Would be great if the real pros regarding stats could step in and see what they make of it. I am not too familiar with the mechanics. To me it seems like there is more than one factor to haste importance (at least: amount of haste, wdps, maybe more) and there seem to be breakpoints. But how many factors and breakpoints there are and what their values are... I don`t know

    Of course you always need to sim your own character, but it would be of great help to know, whether it is a simple decision of knowing whether haste or strength is stronger and then gemming/enchanting everything into that stat. Or whether there are breakpoints up to which to go for haste and then strength and back to haste and back to strength etc.... If it were the latter, this would be of great help to know for the optimizers as well, so they could adjust their tools accordingly.
  12. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day   

    I ran all those sims with 50k iterations. Those deltas given were calculated manually by me between (2 * haste-factor) - strength-factor.
    Maybe I should have used another term than "delta". It just is the difference between haste and strength that I calculated myself.

    EDIT: The "error" given by simcraft is 0.02 for all those calculations, if that is of interest.
  13. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day   

    Sorry to bring up the haste vs. strength issue again, but this is starting to frustrate me. I understood from all the previous posts that there currently is a consensus, that haste pulls ahead of strength from a certain gear level on.
    Since this was not happening for me, being a regular SimC user, I tried this out running a series of simulations with SimC with different gear levels. I used the following gear sets, all using askmrrobot pve default strategy for reforge/gem/enchant:

    askmrrobot pre-raid BiS
    my current gear (492 equipped)
    askmrrobot Tier-14 N BiS
    askmrrobot Tier-14 HC BiS

    I simulated each of them twice with HA and SW respectively.
    These were the results:

    Talent SW
    pre-raid BiS|490|6648|17569|1.59|3.01|+0.17
    tier14N BiS|496|9525|15911|1.47|3.48|-0.54
    tier14HC BiS|509|10431|17617|1.64|3.55|-0.27

    Talent HA
    pre-raid BiS|490|6648|17569|1.47|2.75|+0.19
    tier14N BiS|496|9525|15911|1.40|3.11|-0.31
    tier14HC BiS|509|10431|17617|1.56|3.19|-0.07

    To me this looks like the opposite were true: Haste seems to be better up to a breakpoint between 6648 and 7645, after which strength pulls ahead again (assuming linearity, the breakpoint would be at around 7250 haste for both talents, but I do not know whether this is linear). Maybe there is a second breakpoint at which this changes again, because with better gear the advantage of strength seems to become smaller again.

    Thoughts / opinions / comments on this?
  14. Belatar added a post in a topic [Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day   

    Exemplar, would you consider integrating a subsection regarding Wrath / Ranged into your main post here in section "Rotation"? Would be easier to find it there than somewhere hidden between all those other posts. Sounds to me it could be worth the effort.