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    • Forum Rules (Updated 3/22/14)   07/14/10

      Welcome to the Elitist Jerks forums, a WoW discussion forum targeted towards topics regarding high-end raiding and analysis of game mechanics. We ask you to take a few minutes to read the following before making use of these forums.   First, a point of clarification. The name of these forums is not intended ironically; we have high standards for the discussion that occurs herein, and we're quite unapologetic about it. If you feel our rules are stupid or arbitrary, we don't really care. If you don't wish to follow them, you're welcome to return to the official Blizzard forums.   Following is a brief listing of our forum rules; note that it is by no means exhaustive, as in our experience people are quite innovative in finding new ways to be stupid. These are simply a set of guidelines to get you started in the right direction. If you follow them, you will generally do fine here; however, if you concoct some creative new form of stupidity, our moderators feel no need to restrain themselves in letting you know. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. Do not break a single quoted reply into multiple blocks; doing so needlessly lengthens your post without aiding its readability. And don't provide unnecessary backstory: if it isn't relevant to the question you're asking or the point you're making, we don't need to know about it. All discussion should be both polite and civil. Trolling or flaming in any form is forbidden. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are stupid or on drugs and their personal hygiene isn't really relevant to the discussion. Regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument, it should be made in a way that is neither insulting nor condescending. Whining in any form is forbidden. Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over and neither is anyone else. If all you're going to do is complain, don't bother posting. Threads should be started if and only if there is some reasonable topic to discuss. If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it. Some sub-forums restrict new members from creating new topics unless they've made at least 10 approved posts, to prevent spamming or bad posts. If you really think it deserves a new thread before you have 10 posts, contact a moderator with your post content. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.) Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting. Do not sign your posts. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. No Advertising. Do not make posts solely for the purpose of advertising your site/blog/twitch/etc. You may post such things if it's relevant and adds to discussion at hand. If you have information to share, share it here with a link back to your blog or whatever. Do not post "I have information, come to my site to get it". That will result in an immediate infraction and post removal. Also, we will remove any link to a site that violates a games TOS/EULA such as gold selling sites.

      If you violate a forum rule, you will receive an infraction. Most infractions are worth one point, although we reserve the right to give you more at any time if we feel you deserve them. If you accumulate too many infraction points, you will receive an automatic (usually temporary) ban which revokes your posting privileges, as follows: 3 Points - 1 Day 5 Points - 3 Days 8 Points - 1 Week 10 Points - 1 Month 15 Points - Permanent

      Familiarize yourself with The Banhammer, an archive of all infractions given by the moderators here; it will give you some examples of what not to do. Also feel free to take a gander over The Dung Heap, which will give you a good idea of what these forums would look like if we weren't such jerks.   Thank you for joining the discussion!
    • Site Maintenance (Updated 11-12-15)   10/01/15

      Site has been updated to IPS as of 12 November Known Issues So Far: Old wowhead "item" tags are depricated. They may be re-added to fix some issues with older guides, but for most part it's better to just use the modern wowhead.js which auto parses actual wowhead links automatically into tooltips/names. Just post wowhead links in guides and the js will do the rest. You don't need a special BB code for items. Old article links will be broken do to IPS 4 changing url path to remove some pointless "/_/" directory. The articles are still there and can be found in guides menu. You just may not be able to click links from any threads linking to them without editing out the "/_/" part of url. I'll fix most of this little by little when more important stuff is taken care of. External links/google search results may run into same problem. That will just rely on waiting for google to reindex new paths. After you login, you may be thrown to an error page saying page cannot be found if you logged in from the forum index. Harmless though. Just click "forums" and you'll get forum index since redirect after login is busted. The benefactors bar seems to hang/timeout sometimes.


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  1. ShadowCraft for Warlords of Draenor

    GUI doesn't allow to choose a dagger for main hand for Combat - none in the list of suggested weapons.
  2. ShadowCraft for Warlords of Draenor

    Can't add sockets to CM gear.
  3. ShadowCraft for Warlords of Draenor

    Thank you for the clarification, Pathal.   Please correct me if I'm wrong, but is it safe to say that if AoC goes live providing even better CD recovery rate than Shadowcraft currently assumes (like 1-x model versus old 1/(1+x) model), the value of haste that Shadowcraft would "suggest" would be lower? Enclosing "suggest" in quotes for the reasons explained above. In other words, the slow wobbly haste value curve would be lower than its current counterpart built under 1/(1+x) assumption?
  4. Warlords Mechanic Testing / Verification

    UPD Nevermind this post, I misinterpreted the results from the previous post. Thank you Pathal.
  5. ShadowCraft for Mists of Pandaria

    Elimite, what Fight Duration do you have set in Shadowcraft? Settings tab > General settings > Fight Duration
  6. Rogue Simple Questions

    If you're comfortable playing Sub (and I would assume you are, since you use it on the bosses that are turning around quite a bit, like Malk and Blackfuse), you should have no problems learning how to play Combat quickly enough. Sub rotation is more complicated than Combat, and it could be said that the two are more or less alike, while Assassination playstyle is very different compared to both other specs. Generally, in SoO you'll see higher or close numbers with Combat on most of the fights, due to cleaving possibilities, ease of target switching and reduced positional requirements. That's mostly why Combat is spec du jour in the current tier. My point is, don't be scared to learn Combat and start using it on every fight. If you just learned Sub recently, learning Combat should not be a problem.   As for which one to drop, I would say leave Assn, since you're most familiar with it (unless there are any aspects of your Blackfuse or Garrosh strategies that require you going Sub, and re-learning how to do the fight as Assn or Combat would take a while). But you can always try dropping one spec and then change your mind later based on the results. Since there are no "strict" requirements now to take one or the other spec for certain fights, each fight can be done while playing each spec (the only "requirements" I can think of might be dictated by your guild strategies), the answer to your question should lie in the personal preferences category. The fastest way to test this and learn more about your personal preferences would be probably to run some Flex raids.   You might need to reforge if you go Combat, mostly because you'll have to change at least one weapon and that can mess up your hit/exp caps. If you swap your weapons and find yourself under the caps, I would advise you correct it with reforging (as a cheat, you could tune this by equipping different pieces of gear in other slots if you have spares, and playing with their reforges/gems/enchants). If you go above the caps, you might as well not worry about it in the beginning while you're learning, it won't affect you dps that much. For optimal reforges and gemming consult with http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/.
  7. 5.4 Subtlety Reborn

    Has anyone else noticed more T4 procs than usual this week? Not sure if it's just a crazy coincidence or something else.
  8. 5.4 Subtlety Reborn

    What change do you mean here? Swapping out Glyph of Vanish or Blizzard resolving the bug? If the latter, I very much doubt that the occasional second Subterfuge proc, which was clearly a bug, was accounted for in Shadowcraft.
  9. ShadowCraft for Mists of Pandaria

    (1) Ok, thank you!   (2) Yes, but on the Advanced tab, in DPS Breakdown I still see "Fury of Xuen".
  10. ShadowCraft for Mists of Pandaria

    Hi, I haven't seen it mentioned before, but any chance you could display % in DPS Breakdown on Advanced tab, and not just raw numbers?   Also, there's a typo in the proc name in the Breakdown, "Fury Of Xuen" instead of "Flurry of Xuen". Thanks.
  11. [5.4 Combat] I'm Not Dead Yet

    The guide is correct. The guy saying that weapon swapping is not required is also right. See guide:   x2 haste means that you're comparing Haste x2 to Agility x1 when making gemming choices. Gems contain twice the secondary stat compared to the amount of main stat. Say, when Haste x2 > Agi, that means you should use "80 Agi + 160 Haste" gem for red socket instead of "160 Agi" gem (this is under assumption that you should always go for socket bonuses, which in case of Combat and this tier is virtually always true).
  12. ShadowCraft for Mists of Pandaria

    Adding support of some weird gems to Shadowcraft would be useful, for example, in the following scenario: 1) main spec Combat, secondary spec Sub 2) gear sets only differ in weapon slots 3) want to keep reforging optimized for Combat (so that there's no need to reforge mid-raid), but want to do some fights as Sub 4) if keep reforging the same for everything but weapons, Exp turns out to be undercapped.   As a result, I want to put a Exp/Crit gem in my Sub weapon. I know it's suboptimal, but main spec needs take preference.   It's not very hard to calculate approximate gains and losses based on current weights that Shadowcraft shows, but of course it would be simpler if Shadowrcaft just had those gems.
  13. Rogue Simple Questions

    1. How does one approach estimating how much better Sub is on single target than other specs? It's not recommended to compare dps between different specs in Shadowcraft, and SimCraft never worked well for rogues (compared to Shadowcraft anyway). Last tier, the common knowledge that Assn was "bigger than" other specs was, to my understanding, verified by overwhelming empirical evidence; everyone who could play, say, both Assn and Combat equally well, could switch and notice that Assn was definitely doing more damage. This tier, as I understand, the advantage of Sub is not as prominent, and even WoL does not yet support the premise of Sub being ahead. 2. How can one compare which burst is bigger, Sub or Combat, over, say, a window of 20 seconds? So both Combat has time to burn both KS and AR+SB, and Sub can do its thing (Premed, Vanish, ShD). In the recent thread dedicated to Sub, it is mentioned that Doesn't it follow that Combat's burst is bigger (since it causes high spikes, and Sub's burst, which appears at roughly the same intervals (base 1 min, modified by AoC), doesn't)?
  14. [5.4 Combat] I'm Not Dead Yet

    To answer my previous question in this thread about T16 4pc, I just got it and spent some time on a dummy, and so far it doesn't seem like it resolves the issues with T15 4pc, or, rather, presents its own issues. The playstyle is supposed to be slower, though it doesn't feel like it, because you still cap a lot. You just can't spam the abilities as fast as you could with T15. This leads to CP mismanagement (at least until the muscle memory adapts to T16). With T15, you could queue your finishers and even though they did not hit at the same time you pressed the buttons, they would hit eventually. With T16, you might think you queued something, while in reality you were on GCD and your Eviscerate or SS didn't apply. On target dummy with my own debuffs only, T16 seemed to be doing about 5-7% dps more than T15 (while the overall ilvl went up by 4). In raid environment I suppose it would be worse, because of extra haste that would make you cap even more, as well as likely less optimal CP management. Of course, KS will be hitting harder, but then again you're likely to use KS less often in a real fight than on a dummy. In Shadowcraft it showed virtually no dps difference when I went from T15 4pc (+T16 chest as off-piece) to T16 5pc (with full raid buffs). And it showed about 3% dps increase with buffs that I had on a dummy. That supports my assumption that going from T15 4pc (H) to T16 4pc (N) will likely not be a dps increase in raid setting.
  15. 5.4 Subtlety Reborn

    Just to make sure, can you now correctly compare projected damage between specs in Shadowcraft? If I'm not mistaken, during ToT it wasn't working that way, for instance it constantly showed Combat with 4pc much higher than Assn with similar gear, and in reality it simply wasn't the case. Someone mentioned on these forums at that time that you cannot compare dps between specs using ShC, only dps within a single spec (for example when comparing two pieces of gear).