• Announcements

    • Maniq

      Forum Rules (Updated 3/22/14)   07/14/10

      Welcome to the Elitist Jerks forums, a WoW discussion forum targeted towards topics regarding high-end raiding and analysis of game mechanics. We ask you to take a few minutes to read the following before making use of these forums.   First, a point of clarification. The name of these forums is not intended ironically; we have high standards for the discussion that occurs herein, and we're quite unapologetic about it. If you feel our rules are stupid or arbitrary, we don't really care. If you don't wish to follow them, you're welcome to return to the official Blizzard forums.   Following is a brief listing of our forum rules; note that it is by no means exhaustive, as in our experience people are quite innovative in finding new ways to be stupid. These are simply a set of guidelines to get you started in the right direction. If you follow them, you will generally do fine here; however, if you concoct some creative new form of stupidity, our moderators feel no need to restrain themselves in letting you know. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. Do not break a single quoted reply into multiple blocks; doing so needlessly lengthens your post without aiding its readability. And don't provide unnecessary backstory: if it isn't relevant to the question you're asking or the point you're making, we don't need to know about it. All discussion should be both polite and civil. Trolling or flaming in any form is forbidden. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are stupid or on drugs and their personal hygiene isn't really relevant to the discussion. Regardless of the merit (or lack thereof) of your argument, it should be made in a way that is neither insulting nor condescending. Whining in any form is forbidden. Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over and neither is anyone else. If all you're going to do is complain, don't bother posting. Threads should be started if and only if there is some reasonable topic to discuss. If the issue you wish to discuss is covered in an existing thread, use it rather than creating a new one. If you are asking a simple question that you expect to have a simple answer, ask it in one of the "Simple Questions/Simple Answers" threads. But if you feel there is a topic of discussion not well-covered by existing threads, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it. Some sub-forums restrict new members from creating new topics unless they've made at least 10 approved posts, to prevent spamming or bad posts. If you really think it deserves a new thread before you have 10 posts, contact a moderator with your post content. Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say. Do not bump, quote for truth, cross-post, or post only to say thanks. We don't want to hear your funny story about something that happened in your raid last night, your baseless speculation is unproductive, and your idea for a new ability really isn't that interesting. We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.) Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting. Do not sign your posts. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. No Advertising. Do not make posts solely for the purpose of advertising your site/blog/twitch/etc. You may post such things if it's relevant and adds to discussion at hand. If you have information to share, share it here with a link back to your blog or whatever. Do not post "I have information, come to my site to get it". That will result in an immediate infraction and post removal. Also, we will remove any link to a site that violates a games TOS/EULA such as gold selling sites.

      If you violate a forum rule, you will receive an infraction. Most infractions are worth one point, although we reserve the right to give you more at any time if we feel you deserve them. If you accumulate too many infraction points, you will receive an automatic (usually temporary) ban which revokes your posting privileges, as follows: 3 Points - 1 Day 5 Points - 3 Days 8 Points - 1 Week 10 Points - 1 Month 15 Points - Permanent

      Familiarize yourself with The Banhammer, an archive of all infractions given by the moderators here; it will give you some examples of what not to do. Also feel free to take a gander over The Dung Heap, which will give you a good idea of what these forums would look like if we weren't such jerks.   Thank you for joining the discussion!


  • Content count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

About Metasaigneur

  • Rank
    Glass Joe
  • Birthday 05/11/90

WoW Profile

  • Character Name Metasaigneur
  • Guild Redefined Classics
  • Guild URL http://
  1.     Was looking in OP this awesome tip, and also think it should be added in the "rotation" section.   I found best to pull with 50sec INQ and 4HP so ES does not conflict with either TV nor HoW. 4 HP because opener is then : HoW (5)>TV>HoW(1)>ES>HoW(2).... And fill in your T16DS procs asap in between HoWs   Create a gearset ignoring all slots but the 4 pvp pieces you have, minimizing errors (but not avoiding all of them if you're not carefull) from gear swap if you forgot to save "DPS" gearset after a new ring/neck and such. Good way to not miss prepot and gear swap is a macro   /equipset DPS  <-- or whichever name you put, I don't think it's caps sensitive but still do it as precaution /use potion of mogu power 
  2. My problem is rather with Shado-pan talisman. In your spreadsheet I searched for the formula to estimate the average STR given =SI(Estimations="Off";0;(5079* (15*((Length/80) - (TrinketReset / 3))/Length))) Now, the proc is 8800 STR before buffs, can you explain the reasoning of this an thus explain why such low average STR for this trinket ? Because if I want to keep things simple and say that Shado-pan talisman has 20% uptime (15sec and 75ICD), 20% from 8800STR is 1760 STR average, before buffs. I'm confused here. Did you take the hotfix value of the proc that only occurs in PVP environment (being 4400STR for 30sec) or I am simply missing something on your reasoning ?
  3. Well, the only downside to Spark of Zandalari is that you don't have it on pull. But it has an average ramp-up time of 1min which is pretty easy to line up with ES/CDs unless you have unlucky strikes. And these 8k str are pretty nice. So yes, it's RNG, but with good tracking you can use it to full potential. If you really are uncomfortable with it, shado-pan talisman is a good alternative with its easy-to-track 75sec ICD (easy line-up, very reliable, but you need to be able to exploit the full expertise on it to make it better than spark). At least for normal mode. Once you have a 535 spark, your BIS is here ;) Feathers is definitely a monster DPS-wise. Helps our sustained and blows our burst really out of space. If you manage to line up ES to the 10stacked Ji'kun and you're lucky enough to have a proc during wings, you're gonna see your DPS is really getting good. Even LFR feathers beats any other 522 trinkets. Primo's rage talisman is really worse than any of those because of the bloody crit which is pretty useless, and the stacks are stuck to 1-2 over the course of a fight, with some rare moment between 3-4 for 10sec. Only moment were you can hope to stay at 5stacks, long enough to be worth it, is during heroism, but RNG being what it is there is no guarantee. Maybe dual-wielding spec have better luck with it, but concerning ret, it doesn't proc much overall. So no, primordius really isn't good for us :/ and I'm not even talking about Gaze of twins which any ret shouldn't even consider using.
  4. Since the +6% damage is a debuff on the boss, it interacts dynamically with ES (exactly like DoTs for SP or Locks). So if by any means necessary you want to micro-manage the 2pc and ES synergy, try to cast ES when Exo's CD<9s in order to have +6% on at least the final giga-explosion, and minimum >=4s when you cast ES so that you get the final 6sec of ES benefiting of the debuff. So cast ES when 4sec<Exo'CDs<9sec If you get an AoW proc, I don't think delaying Exo by 4-5sec right after casting ES would be a gain (possible proc waste, loss of HP thus less TVs, loss of +6% for all other abilities etc.) so just cast Exo and ES together if it's time for you to cast it (aligning it with strong STR proc I mean). All in all, this micro-managing of 2pc<->ES is the last of all in the list of benefits for ES damage. Aligning it with Synapse/swordguard embroidery + STR procs (feather, spark, shado-pan talisman, pot, guardian) is much more important. If you get lucky to cast an Exo when ES duration on target is <=6sec, that's perfect, but don't delay ES just for 2pc if it means not aligning it with STR procs/CDs. The only question remaining is if during AW, casting ES when AW duration is <10sec, does ES benefits from the 20% for the final tick(s) or should we cast ES when AW duration is >=10sec to get it. I will do some test and edit this post if no one answers in the meantime. EDIT : Only buffs I had were kings+275 well fed (raid remains). I canceled dancing steel if it procced to annihilate discrepancies. **** Cast of ES when 24sec of AW remains Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (5496 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (6046 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (6650 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (7315 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (8047 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (8852 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (9736 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (10711 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (11782 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (58912 Overkill) **** Cast of ES when 4sec of AW remains Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (5496 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (6046 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (6650 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (7315 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (8047 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (8852 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (9736 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (10711 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (11782 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (58912 Overkill) Yes, exact same numbers every ticks. **** ES without AW to check if it benefits from it Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (4580 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (5037 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (5541 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (6096 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (6706 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (7376 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (8114 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (8925 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (9817 Overkill) Your Execution Sentence damaged Training Dummy 1 Holy. (49093 Overkill) **** Conclusion : AW does increase ES damage until the last tick, even if cast when less than 10sec remain on the buff duration
  5. Well quite frankly, HotR clunky-facing-mechanic makes it "dangerous" to hit Tortos as the primary. She has a huge hitbox, so if you HotR the bats, it's guaranteed you'll cleave the boss, whereas while hitting Tortos, it might consider bats "behind" you because of the huge hitbox. Try doing so at max melee range maybe. Same logic for spreading the 2pc debuff via mass exo. But overall, switch to SoR right when bats land, exo them to apply 2pc debuff and I would consider using HA to mass DS them every 2min (so 1/3 of the time) to eliminate them asap, as well as speccing Light's Hammer (besides, the heal provided will help your tank to keep his HP above the limit). Be sure your mass exo, hotr and DS hit the boss and you should be good.
  6. Spells proccing SoJ are : White strikes Crusader Strike Hammer of the righteous Templar's Verdict Spells NOT proccing SoJ : Judgment Hammer of Wrath Divine Storm Exorcism Both debuffs can be maintained on the same target, it is not a "one or the other" situation. As for the crit part, I tend to assume it will be more like our hand of light mastery but I have yet to test it on the new build to confirm.
  7. New PTR build made SoJ fully functionnal and it increases TV damage by 25% WDmg* (*edit fix, thanks Mamoru) per stack, 5stacks maximum, not consumed by TVs, 20sec duration. Would Switching to SoJ for CDs be a viable option ? Besides, concerning T14 and T15, are double 2P bonuses a gain, or the loss of the reduced AW CD is too much ? For instance : I have head and chest LFR 0/2, Legs normal 0/2, Hands heroic 2/2. Is there a way where double 2P would be an upgrade (switching 2 LFR pieces for normal 2PT15) ? Besides, SoR was buffed from 6 to 9% Wdmg. Blizzard claims it is now worth using at 4+ targets. Is it really the case ? They first announced a 100% buff if I recall correctly, and 12% Wdmg would have been a no-brainer, but 9% seems kind of middle-of-the-road AOE seal.
  8. No response from GC then. So yeah, even if SoJ is not worth switching to during PVE single target DPS, in fights with AOE portions, the loss of 2 GCDs is a great loss. And it would not mean macros at all since SoR is worth using at 4 targets, so no reason to see DS/SoR or HotR/SoR macros brainlessly used among Rets. It will still be a well-thought decision whether to swap seal or not. And good decision should not be negated by DPS-loss or clunky mechanics. The only way we would be forced to macro spells with seals is if SoJ is indeed worth using on single-target by using a /cast Seal of Truth /cast Judgment /cast Seal of Justice A macro we would use every 14-15 sec to maintain censure up while using SoJ all along the fight. And that is really clunky too, and not desirable : either SoJ is worth it for short single target (adds typically), either it replaces SoT entirely, but I don't think it's their intent. So SoT for sustained single and multi-dot up to 3stargets is powerful. SoJ on short single target (corrupted waters, adds...) must be powerful to be worth it but must not surpass SoT on duration longer than 20s. And SoR for 4+ targets is back to where it was in Cata which is pretty nice. But in order to have a smooth gameplay and not feel like : "Waaait! Don't kill all the adds I'm still on GCD from swaping seals!", seals should really be off the GCD to make swapping seals a smooth, smart and useful move.
  9. World of Logs Analysis (Help me not suck thread)

    @BentBlyant Try to maintain censure on the boss for the whole fight. I personally run with SoR until we kill the first set of adds (even on heroic) and switch back to SoT right before recklessness, in order to have a 5-stacked Censure on the boss right before it gains the debuff so that I don't lose heavy ticks, but it's up to you to run with SoT all along ;) . Try a macro like : #showtooltip /startattack /cast [@boss1,mod:alt,nodead,harm][nomod]Judgment /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() Boss1 should be Mel'Jarrak at all times in normal mode. If you are going for heroic soon, due to the repop of adds, it may be re-arranged and boss1 may become the fresh Menders set of adds. So you are better off with an extra button with a macro like : #showtooltip /tar wind lord /startattack /cast Judgment /targetlasttarget /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() Given this, you should go for the "glyph of double jeopardy" to maximize your target-switching with judgment to maintain censure up. I noticed you specced into Selfless healer and threw 5 FoL in total. 3 of them were during your strength procs, which you might want to avoid. Besides, you ran the boss with a 3 healers composition so that shouldn't have been necessary. Try to spec into Sacred Shield and cast it only for the rains of blades and kor'thik strikes on yourself (along with a glyphed divine protection). That should save you some lost GCDs and improve personal damages taken Maybe it is a bug on WoL but I don't see you using your pre-pull potion. That's about anything I can say here. I have a request of my own for Lei Shi 10man normal mode : I've been running with SW as my L75 talent since I have 4p, but wasted my wings often on adds or during hide. So I tried HA and had a better use of my CDs, while being aware about the boss's life for protect, and DBM's timers for specials. All in all, I lost a full use of my CDs (3 casts instead of the 4 possibles uses) due to avoiding wasting them. Should I use them on the add of Protect anyway ? What are your opinions on Divine Purpose for this fight ? Another question about Lei Shi. WoL considers DPS(e) for rankings and during hide, we can't do anything to dps the boss. Should we be spamming hands (freedom, sac) and/or emancipate to virtually keep our active time up ? Maybe it is selfish, but seeing my 86k DPS drop to 65K DPS(e) makes me wonder what I can do to avoid it. Here are the logs : Details for Metasaigneur - 16-01 20:56 - Redefined Classics - World of Logs Armory is in my profile.
  10. Well I don't try to make SimCraft look like a toy for numbers. It's a great tool. I already said that maybe the extremely long condition may be too clunky, or maybe you didn't see my auto-criticism ? I just try to express in SimulationCraft syntax the reasoning of prioritization in abilities to maximize the proc of the buff without capping HP or wasting an already existing proc. If you ask yourself what difference can it make in the real world, then you didn't see my point. I don't say that these clues are perfect, besides, simulation/spreadsheet never is. But there's no wrong in making a proposition, and try to participate in the construction of the best profile available for paladins. This attempt to translate human on-the-fly decision is because these decisions are what make the difference between good gameplay, or robotic /insert clcinfo with no self judgement in my opinion. My bad for trying to help I guess
  11. For the t15DP and t15HA Action priority list line F : avenging_wrath,if=buff.inquisition.up&cooldown.guardian_of_ancient_kings.remains>0&cooldown.guardian_of_ancient_kings.remains<291) The "inquisition.up" should be completed by a "remains>=20" parameter so that we do not lose a GCD refreshing INQ during wings. Maybe put Exo before CS if bonus 4pt15 is up ? Also I don't see the point in adding this condition concerning INQ for ES. It takes buffs on cast so even if inquisition.remains>=4 , it will be buffed. No need to cast it only if INQ>15sec, or maybe there is a subtlety that I don't understand here. DP only Maybe add a condition on CS if=!(buff.t15_ret_4pc.up)|(cooldown.hammer_of_wrath.remains>=0.5&cooldown.judgment.remains>=0.5&cooldown.exorcism.remains>=0.5) To avoid overwriting the buff most of the times ? or maybe it's too clunky... :/ For t15SW The INQ condition for ES here is more consistent and should be used for all profiles I would definitely put Exo before CS if hp<=3 OR buff 4pt14 is up Here are some ideas, I don't know if all of them are doable since it's difficult to sim human on-the-fly decision. Good luck on writing a near-perfect action list ;)
  12. I agree that 2p is hurting a bit with RNG of AoW proc, but still, I sit at 9275 haste and my Exo CD is 12.6. The buff duration is 6s, which lead to a minimum of ~50% up-time. Besides, I am poorly geared sitting at 489ilvl (considering the upgrades) and 5.2 will lead us to even greater haste figures than full t14h bis, which means rather 60 to 70% up-time with the lowered GCD by pure haste if itemization allows it. So yeah, RNG thanks to AoW can make some big differences from fight to fight, but just as much as things like Divine Purpose or crit. Besides, both 2p and 4p seem like our burst will indeed be even more outrageous, but it still is a great upgrade on our sustained damage in my opinion. 40% chance for a fully holy-energized TV is already huge. Sadly affected by RNG, but 4pt10 was 60% on swing to reset DS, 4pt12 for DK was a 40% chance of double proc too, etc, and yet these were strong bonuses if I recall correctly. I think those bonuses deserve some testing before complaining about RNG all the way and see what comes up. I don't know how much haste would be needed to achieve a ~3s CS (with 9375 I have it on a 3.7s CD) in order to have a Cs<->filler "rotation" but it is totally achievable during bloodlust or during Darkmist Vortex proc for instance (A 2/2 Darkmist Vortex heroic gives 8400haste). It should be around 17k haste so maybe in T15H? The problem I see is during SW, we risk being puzzled between using HoW, EXO or TV at 4HP. first case : 4hp>HoW>5HPTV not buffed by EXO 4hp>EXO>5HPTV buffed by exo byt we loose an entire HoW 4hpTV not buffed but allowin us to begin next cycle with 1hp>HoW(2hp)>Exo(3hp)>HoW(4hp)>TV fully buffed And yeah I'm concerned about the 4HP situation since I always end up like this by using HoW(1hp)>ES>HoW(2hp)>J/EXO(3hp)>HoW(4hp)>TV when I use AW. It is going to be tricky using SW or is it just me imagining things ? will HA be a better option then ? I know I'm not a genius in math and theorycrafting, but trails of reasoning is valuable too right ? If I said some enormous idiocy feel free to point it out, and thanks to everyone trying hard to help us pull out the best of our paladin. EDIT : Concerning the 4hp situation, the 4p bonus will infer more conflict with the use of CS too!