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      Welcome to the Elitist Jerks forums, a WoW discussion forum targeted towards topics regarding high-end raiding and analysis of game mechanics. We ask you to take a few minutes to read the following before making use of these forums.   First, a point of clarification. The name of these forums is not intended ironically; we have high standards for the discussion that occurs herein, and we're quite unapologetic about it. If you feel our rules are stupid or arbitrary, we don't really care. If you don't wish to follow them, you're welcome to return to the official Blizzard forums.   Following is a brief listing of our forum rules; note that it is by no means exhaustive, as in our experience people are quite innovative in finding new ways to be stupid. These are simply a set of guidelines to get you started in the right direction. If you follow them, you will generally do fine here; however, if you concoct some creative new form of stupidity, our moderators feel no need to restrain themselves in letting you know. All posters are to make an effort to communicate clearly. In particular, all posts should be made in a reasonable approximation of proper English. We realize that a significant number of you are not native speakers, and we do not expect perfection: merely effort. Please obey basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, avoid chatroom abbreviations ("lol", "imo", "u", and the like), and pay at least minimal attention to sentence and paragraph structure. This includes not starting a new paragraph for each sentence. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible. Do not make multiple consecutive posts; rather, multi-quote and include all your ideas in a single post. Do not quote huge blocks of text to add a short reply; instead, quote only what you need to to make your point. 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We don't care what gear you are hoping to get or just received. If you have an idea you'd like to share with the community, support it with analysis, testing, or both that indicates you've put some thought into it. (Note: Posting of a new untested spec falls under this rule, unless you have done the grunt work and have information to support your amazing new spec don't even bother posting it here.) Do not beg for hand-holding. These are forums for discussion and analysis, not for answering any question that you might happen to dream up. Search and read before posting--do not post a question unless you are fairly confident that the answer isn't widely known or easily attainable. In particular, we do not want to take a look at your armory or WWS to tell you what you're doing wrong and we're not interested in making your tough gear or spec decisions for you. We expect you to use the search function and also to read the first post as well as the last 5 pages of the thread you are posting in. Chances are your question has already been answered. Additionally, do not post asking for confirmation of a simulation result. If you think there is a problem with the Sim you are welcome to PM the author. All accounts must have a valid WoW profile. If you no longer play and have deleted all characters you used to have, you may select the "No WoW Account" option; otherwise, this information must be filled out for your main character. If you fail to observe this rule you'll be permanently banned from our forums. We do not permit anonymous posting. Do not sign your posts. People can see who you are from the profile printed to the left of each post, so signing your posts is redundant and simply takes up space. Similarly, you do not need to link your armory in your post, as if people wish to see it they can get it from your profile. Do not respond to terrible posts. Do not respond to a blatantly awful post (a post that is in clear violation of the rules) either in an attempt to moderate them or to answer a question they posed. Your post will just be warned/infracted and removed with the post you are replying to. If you feel that a post is in violation of these rules, please report it and the moderators will deal with it as we feel is appropriate. No Advertising. Do not make posts solely for the purpose of advertising your site/blog/twitch/etc. You may post such things if it's relevant and adds to discussion at hand. If you have information to share, share it here with a link back to your blog or whatever. Do not post "I have information, come to my site to get it". That will result in an immediate infraction and post removal. Also, we will remove any link to a site that violates a games TOS/EULA such as gold selling sites.

      If you violate a forum rule, you will receive an infraction. Most infractions are worth one point, although we reserve the right to give you more at any time if we feel you deserve them. If you accumulate too many infraction points, you will receive an automatic (usually temporary) ban which revokes your posting privileges, as follows: 3 Points - 1 Day 5 Points - 3 Days 8 Points - 1 Week 10 Points - 1 Month 15 Points - Permanent

      Familiarize yourself with The Banhammer, an archive of all infractions given by the moderators here; it will give you some examples of what not to do. Also feel free to take a gander over The Dung Heap, which will give you a good idea of what these forums would look like if we weren't such jerks.   Thank you for joining the discussion!
    • Site Maintenance (Updated 11-12-15)   10/01/15

      Site has been updated to IPS as of 12 November Known Issues So Far: Old wowhead "item" tags are depricated. They may be re-added to fix some issues with older guides, but for most part it's better to just use the modern wowhead.js which auto parses actual wowhead links automatically into tooltips/names. Just post wowhead links in guides and the js will do the rest. You don't need a special BB code for items. Old article links will be broken do to IPS 4 changing url path to remove some pointless "/_/" directory. The articles are still there and can be found in guides menu. You just may not be able to click links from any threads linking to them without editing out the "/_/" part of url. I'll fix most of this little by little when more important stuff is taken care of. External links/google search results may run into same problem. That will just rely on waiting for google to reindex new paths. After you login, you may be thrown to an error page saying page cannot be found if you logged in from the forum index. Harmless though. Just click "forums" and you'll get forum index since redirect after login is busted. The benefactors bar seems to hang/timeout sometimes.


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About Houndsto0th

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    Glass Joe
  • Birthday 04/21/86

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  • Character Name Houndstooth
  • Guild Vindicatum
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  1. Warlords of Draenor death knight discussion

    If a mob can have multiple instances of Necrotic it seems like in a Protectors style fight that just chain rolling plagues onto the bosses would be a very efficient way to dps, I'm guessing the execute time/dps on it will be pretty attractive. Also in a single target fight being able to time your ticks of Necrotic with your needing to grab aggro seems like a good way to both utilize DPS and snap aggro to you with ease.    I'm really excited about the potential for a great looking spell effect on the breath. I also think it might be a great way for blood to keep sustained AoE aggro which is something we lose out to other tanks fairly regularly.    I have to say I'm interested to see if they change Bloods mitigation this xpac. It seems like they're very interested in tanks lately and how to make them more engaging to play, anyone have thoughts/read something I haven't?
  2. Hey @Furi0n, I didn't start Tanking until Mists, until then I had been a Mage in a very competitive guild (lots of US top 75s) and was used to having concrete stat weights and breakpoints. The short of it is that the stat weights rely on way too many factors for someone to create a concrete number list. Your mastery can change value based on your total Stamina to an extent and the value of dodge/parry/mastery can change on personal evaluation of your healers in a raid. My philosophy is that during progression content, if you have solid DPS in the raid, you should be gearing to smooth damage. Making healing you easier means your healers can focus your attention elsewhere to make difficult phases/bursts of damage more manageable and keep dps alive to dps harder. Based on some Sims that I've run through SimC using my current gearing and balancing roughly 85:15 Damage Reduction : DPS stats I've landed on the following: (these are how I set them in AMR for the optimizer) Stamina: 1.2 Dodge: 1 Mastery(to 230%): 1 Parry: .95 Haste: .87 Mastery(past 230%): .5 The reason I have Mastery set the way I do is that during my Simulations I found that going past that mastery point was actually detrimental to my TMI (Theck-Meelore Index) rating. I'm guessing it's due to how valuable other stats that were being sacrificed are when rating TMI. I set dodge and parry that way because it balances for where my gearing is at currently, those will probably change significantly now that I'm seeing more and more heroic gear. Again, these are very subject to change but so far I've seen a marked improvement in the size and number of spikes I'm taking in Normal/Heroic content compared with previous weeks.
  3. I wanted to very quickly contribute what ive found with the admittedly flawed sims Ive been able to run. Dodge and Parry seem to have a heavy effect on a Tanks TMI, which I think is important to keep in mind. Currently it valuates parry much higher than dodge but im keeping them balanced according the the DR equation and my incoming damage feels good. It seems like there might be a point where we have more mastery than we can adequately make use of based on boss swings/swing timers, can anyone shed some light on this? Am I not setting up the sim correctly and getting an anomoly?
  4. Hey Cryo, I haven't seen the AMS behavior you described on Immerseus but on normal as long as you have semi-decent dps you won't need to worry about it since it will drop off during the dispersion phase. Do you stream, if so can you PM me a link to a clip of it happening? On a completely different note, from what Simming I have done (relatively low repetitions, I only have a quad core) I'm with a balance of 75% DTPS stat weight and 25% dps stat weight I'm seeing dodge and parry come into a more balanced light with haste as a viable gearing option. I will post up the results I've been cacheing when I get home but was wondering if anyone else is seeing something similar. My choice to go with those ratios of stat weighting is partially due to my being a tank in a 10 man with substantial DPS who are very good at pushing numbers. I could even probably go more heavily into defensive stats to ignore some of the semi dangerous mechanics in certain fights (tanking multiple large adds in Spoils comes to mind).
  5. Was talking about Simcraft for Blood, hence the Riposte reference. It's possible that with the change Dodge/Parry could outweigh Haste as blood values it. I'll mess with it Mend, it was spitting out some really strange numbers recently
  6. I realize this might not be possible right now but are any of the theorycrafters involved in Simulationcraft working with the 5.4 changes at all? I'm still new to manipulating it and can't wrap my head around a way to implement Riposte to try and get accurate stat valuations for Dodge/Parry. If any of you have any help on this it would be much appreciated. Thanks
  7. I'm also 10 man heroic but I think that, much like my normal gearing strategy I'll probably stick to tank meta/cloak and explore a 2/2 tier combination. I'm a gigantic fan of gaming mechanics and don't know that I will want to give up a zero draw back cheat death, but after the bulk of progression is over I'll move away from a mitigation build to more of a balanced focus. It's possible I won't want to give up the 4 piece blood though.
  8. Hey Cryo, interesting numbers, I'm wondering how much of that difference is the change to the meta + the change to how Runic Corruption changes RPPM on live at the moment. Did you try it with Blood Tap?
  9. This has a lot of potential for mechanic gaming. Follow up question: If the cloak is absorbing the damage how would it interact with AMS? Do all of these concurrent absorbs have a "Stack" (former magic player, the thought process never leaves)? For instance, Dark Animus, I'm tanking both massives and get up to 6 stacks of the debuff due to an unlucky situation where I took an anima font at the first attempt to avoid gaining stacks (maybe I was just avoiding the first 2 stack application because of a recent tank swap and just want to delay my gaining any stacks). I have the cloak, purgatory and AMS up and Apply AMS first. They're both swinging at a very slightly staggered timing and they start casting. As far as the game is concerned I'm taking one hit, then the other. The first hit isn't enough to rid me of my AMS but the next one would be enough to kill me; does the game look at the cloak first? Would it absorb the hit, AMS would be left up and I wouldn't get a stack of the debuff? I recognize that something like this a fringe case but if we have some kind of stack priority we can use there's a strong possibility to use the combination of these abilities to totally game encounter mechanics.
  10. Any word from the PTR on what happens with the legendary cloak + Purgatory? Could make for a very powerful "ignore mechanics" set up, or completely negate a talent if the cloak and purg go off at the same time.
  11. It seems, from the discussion at least, that the only important thing for determining relative values in this sim would be the ability to adjust boss abilities and inserting the Death Strike rules, everything else seems a bit extraneous to me. Since the primary complaint with SimC is the "dumb strike" behavior, adjusting that alone would get us to a point where the results have meaning and can be interpreted, we don't need to simulate every possible CD use in various boss situations, just types of incoming damage and the way stat weights affect the total amount of damage. I'd love an easy way to plot damage taken in graph form much like the presentation on World of Logs so we can see a snapshot of peaks and valleys of damage and how the stats are changing them. Slightly Unrelated: Tyvi is there any way for us to move the posts in this discussion related to theorycraft to their own post? My thought is that it might be bogging down the post, maybe that's just my perception.
  12. Mend: That article is part of what spurred my interest in getting some more theorycraft floating around in the DK community. It absolutely makes sense that stamina is the most consistent way to reduce spike damage, if you can reduce the % amount that a hit is subtracting from your stamina (by having a ton of stamina) then that spike is always going to be less "spike-y". His findings in that thread are not just paladin specific, they apply to every tank. DKs just get reach the upper bounds of health totals possible in a given tier. It's be said before, but especially with these findings, I don't think we need to advocate stacking pure stam. The relative value of stam is what makes determining value for secondary/tertiary stats so important. What it allows us to do is place a relative valuation on the stat when reforging/regemming though and that can give us a much better idea about which way to gear efficiently. Further, on progression content stamina becomes king for DKs, which really isn't that surprising but it's nice to have a ton of math (thanks Theck) to support that kind of conclusion. What I hope people realize is that "enough" stamina is not a good enough ideal to shoot for. The goal should be reacting to and assisting with your raids progression. There will be points in progression where your healers need all the help you can get and tanks are getting Dark Parasite/Hard Stare/Arterial Cut combo'd to death. At those points stacking stamina will result in a significant increase in survival and spike smoothness, moreso than mastery would. I think that when you're feeling comfortable with your stamina pool it follows naturally that mastery (for survivability control) and then haste (for dps + control) make the most sense to focus on. They're both going to do something we all chase heavily, which is give us control over our ability to take damage and, to a lesser extent, deal damage. It's a happy coincidence that both of those things can be assisted by our tertiary stat focus if we make it Haste. Our current sim tool supports it (flawed though it may be) and based purely on a logical approach to how damage behaves I'm sure a more refined tool would say the same. Edit: Initial part of post was redundant since someone had already answered the question.
  13. If you're reducing your DTPS you're also smoothing out spikes, but more importantly Theck's work with showing how stamina affects the smoothing of incoming damage (something every tank is concerned with, or should be) directly backs the stats posted. I'll point you towards 2 posts, the logic used here can and should be applied to all tanks: here and here The point is, Haste is more valuable as a tertiary tanking stat than Dodge/Parry. As far as the "unnecessary resource usage" argument, if you're gaming RC/BT properly it's a moot topic because you're setting yourself up to recall the resource nearly immediately or immediately. Being able to fill GCD, smooth out regular damage further and recall reactionary resources on demand is the ultimate goal of a tank. Haste assists more in doing so than Dodge/Parry.
  14. EDIT: After retreading a few things my question can be summarized as: Is there a way to simcraft tank survivability that is somewhat accessible to someone who has a distaste for maths? Second question: Is there a point where a certain amount of haste would become desirable enough to pursue? Like to hit a certain rune regeneration rate?
  15. Based on current information about heroic encounters, is there a "health ceiling" that you would get to, and start moving your stat priority to mastery as a blood tank? If heroic lei Shen is hitting for roughly 170k (theoretical number just to conceptualize around) every 2 seconds, would you shoot for 800k to be able to live through 5 hits in worst case, nearly impossible situations? I read the blood tanking post (very awesome place to begin understanding Blood theory, thank you). It seems that even when you get to the theoretical health ceiling that there would be no reason to stop stacking staming as it effectively makes each hit taken relatively smaller and smooths out healing on a tank, but I'm new so maybe there's a part of the theory here I missed