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Balance Raiding in Cataclysm


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#561 Treyce

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 02:08 PM

I'm not sure what gear level you're at, but with mostly 264/277 gear, I can hit a target dummy infinitely, using innervate on cooldown (I am specced into Dreamstate).


On live im BIS save one piece, on beta level 85, mostly 346 gearing. Im not discussing level 80 because its a moot point, content is over, 4.0.1 is an adjustment to new skills and i spam all day on a test dummy. On beta / ptr, level 85 im oom extremely quickly, self innervating correctly, being diligent. I would direct you all to the Cataclysm forums where many of the beta Moonkins are very concerned at the current state of mana. Its not an issue of understanding when to use innervate, its simply at 85 the cost of our casts is too high.

As to Euphoria, it inherently works opposite of how blizzard wants our design to work, and it makes little sense. As we scale with more haste (previously it was critting) we will simply bounce between Eclipses much faster, proccing much more mana. In higher tiers, unless adjusted, we will see higher mana returns than we do now, thus possibly freeing up our innervates, which right now we are 100% tied to. So in higher tiers, as content gets deeper involved, the mana innervates to healers re-appears? They are seemingly focused on healers wanting to care about mana, and have thusly been working toward making innervate a self cast, rather than changing our model, and making innervate not return mana to other casters.

In order for their model for innervate to work, we have to be again balanced on a knife edge of 50% mana consumption / 3 mins, thus being 100% self sufficient. Any more mana consumption and we are oom, any less mana consumption and we free our innervate to cast elsewhere. Curerently we exceed 150% mana consumption in sub 2 mins. i have little issues with having to utilize 1 gcd every 3 mins for mana regen, other classes are more impacted (locks, mages etc), i just wish their design made more sense.


You should have around 1500 MP / 5 from spirit unless you are stacking / reforging for more. Assume you're in a raid you get another 300 from buffs.


Your in combat regen is 931 mp5, regardless of spirit. Understand why the illustration for mana tide, however others have commented regarding spirit, just re affirming.

edit:

However as stated elsewhere if specced into Lunar Shower it is possible to almost do the same DPS if you spam MF while moving in Lunar.


Im confused as to why this is listed as a solution. I understand it is in the game, but why should we have to utilize a methodology that drops our dps 20-25% while waiting for regen to allow us to cast a handful of spells? Notwithstanding this, lunar shower casting is mana efficient, however it takes 6-7 secs for 1000 mana regen, so for 1 cast of a nuke you have to wait 12 -15 secs? Thats not a solution, thats a workaround by desperate dps

#562 Kluian

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 02:26 PM

Your in combat regen is 931 mp5, regardless of spirit. Understand why the illustration for mana tide, however others have commented regarding spirit, just re affirming.


I'm talking about healers and mana regen (and the request that moonkins give innervates to them). Not sure where you're throwing out 931 combat regen. Do moonkins have 931 base casting regen at 85? Guess my Mana tide numbers are off then, because I didn't believe there were base casting mana regen numbers.

#563 Treyce

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 02:33 PM

I'm talking about healers and mana regen (and the request that moonkins give innervates to them). Not sure where you're throwing out 931 combat regen. Do moonkins have 931 base casting regen at 85? Guess my Mana tide numbers are off then, because I didn't believe there were base casting mana regen numbers.


Full Level 85 gear ilevel346:

http://img214.images...l85fullgear.jpg

Naked Level 85

http://img88.imagesh...nogearregen.jpg

Base regen @ 85: 931mp/5

#564 Arythorn

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 03:29 PM

As we scale with more haste (previously it was critting) we will simply bounce between Eclipses much faster, proccing much more mana. In higher tiers, unless adjusted, we will see higher mana returns than we do now, thus possibly freeing up our innervates


Haste and crit will not be the scaling factors for scaling regen as our gear improves. Haste will speed the time with which we proc more mana but it will also speed the time with which we consume more mana. The number of casts between procs will stay constant regardless of haste levels. INT will be the scaling factor. INT will scale initially by giving us a higher mana pool to begin but then, more importantly, as Euphoria and Dreamstate both are based on max mana pool, it will greatly increase the value of both of those abilities as well (while spell cast costs will remain static derived on a percentage of base mana which will not change). It will also likely make points in Furor worth more than points in Moonglow.

Long-term, I still feel the talents as written will scale well. It would be nice if Euphoria energy gains were still tied to crit to give an additional stat beyond INT that would affect regen upward but I think INT alone will do a ton of heavy lifting as gear improves. This is not to say Blizzard doesn't need to adjust spell mana costs down from current beta levels but rather to say say that I believe our talents are generally written in a way that will scale us to a point where we can give the Innervate away (though it still would make sense to major glyph it to keep some of the personal benefit).
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#565 Treyce

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 04:09 PM

While the current model may scale well, in earlier tiers its not painful, its disfunctional.

With raids releasing shortly, ill parse and post data at that point, but so far from the data i have seen in 5 mans, with geared people, with might / mp5 buff, is not impressive. Im very concerned with the mana issue and feel innervate is a crutch that should have been abandoned long ago. I will continue to argue to buff our mana by lowering cost of spells, and as for balance tree, i would rather see innervate become a cooldown to proc eclipse (generate full energy instantly), which would solve several issues, than to exist in its current form.

#566 GotlandsUgglan

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 04:30 PM

@Treyce

I am not saying that it is optimal, just stating that in order to maintain dps during current environment lunar shower MF spam is one alternative and also a valid one. The opposite where we dont care about DPM then what is the point with mana?

Current doing instances on heroic mode with premade gear i am able to top the dps and killing what i am supposed to kill. That including innervating the healer instead of me. That was my point i was trying to state. If you have mana issues then currently on beta the lunar shower MF spamm is an option that you should consider.

Standing at the raider post and doing best dps rotation ignoring mana then of course you go oom.

My point is only moot of course if mana should be a aspect we should consider when dpsing.

#567 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 07:53 PM

I don't really get the point of Innervate anymore if you are never supposed to use it on anyone but yourself. It's pretty worthless for a Feral Druid, since 20% of their mana is practically nothing. Healers are going to be mana deprived, so they'll be using it on themselves. Moonkins are required to use it on themselves like Arcane Mages use Evocate.

The WoW community is just going to have to come to terms with the fact that Innervate is not a raid buff anymore.

#568 Ereshmilor

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 02:25 PM

DoT Refreshing:

Do the DoT react on Eclipse on the per tick base in beta? It doesn't on PTR, so imo it the best to refresh both DoTs after an Eclipse proc, because it takes me about 20s to get from proc to proc.

#569 Hamlet

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 02:31 PM

DoT Refreshing:

Do the DoT react on Eclipse on the per tick base in beta? It doesn't on PTR, so imo it the best to refresh both DoTs after an Eclipse proc, because it takes me about 20s to get from proc to proc.


They don't. People ask this a lot, but I've never been expecting it to change.

It doesn't encourage clipping all that much. Typically, you're going to get only one Eclipsed DoT cast anyway, so it's fine if it comes later rather than sooner.

#570 Hyperion

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:57 AM

New beta patch notes are out:

* Moonfury now also affects Starsurge.
* Cyclone now has a 1.7 sec cast time, down from 2 sec.
* Starfire now costs 11% of base mana, down from 16%. Cast time changed to 3.2 sec, down from 3.5 sec.
* Entangling Roots now has a 1.7 sec cast time, down from 2 sec.
* Thorns damage reduced by 66%, now deals [ 16.8% of Spell Power + 178.58 ] or [ 16.8% of AP + 178.58 ] depending on the highest.
* Moonfire base additional damage increased by 50%.
* Wrath now costs 9% of base mana, down from 14%.
* Euphoria now restores 8/16% (up from 6/12%) mana when you reach a Solar or Lunar eclipse.


Looks like they responded to our concerns.

EDIT: Can anyone on beta check to see if they stealth-fixed Sunfire also?

#571 Lucrece

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:19 AM

Mercy Jesus, praise the Lord!

I called it on Starsurge being included in Moonfury. Now they need to just change it to include all balance spells (hello Typhoon).

Now, please let E&M be applied by all balance spells. Have haste/procs autoupdate on DoT's so I don't have to recast one of them after I get Nature's Grace.

Then make Wild Mushrooms something actually worth the space in my bars and I'll be happy in PvE.

Thorns is nerfed, not like it was useful to begin with as it was meant to be a PvP spell and yet it got purged/dispelled the instant it went up.

#572 Rahucun

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:39 PM

I wonder which is the best way to start a fight;
Lets say that the encounter can be pulled without having to move and starting your dps right when the pull is made.
I am thinking about starting at 80-95% to lunar. Prepot a speed and : S-Surge >Starfall( during the delay to proc an eclipse so you dont use moonfire and doesnt proc your nature's grace ) > moonfire > Starfire

OR

Starting at 80-95% to solar; S-Surge>IS> wrath.

I'd say starting lunar would be better for the effectiveness of the prepot?


( Idk why but i pull 12,5k dps outside icc with single target only with IS and sunfire ??)

#573 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:28 AM

Because there is no more GCD clipping, Haste is no longer disproportionately better for Lunar than Solar. Solar is just stronger in general. Two DoTs are buffed by Nature Damage (Sunfire and Insect Swarm), which is the biggest difference. Still not sure why there is no Arcane equivalent to Sunfire, even if it's baked into an Eclipse Starfire (similar to Ignite maybe?).

#574 Carebare

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 01:47 AM

Closing this. Most of the thread is not patch relevant. Please use the appropriately labeled thread.

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