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Balance Raiding in Cataclysm


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#41 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 12:11 AM

It is an interesting point though that we do have an initial amount of Spirit, therefore we require less spirit through gear due to the 100% conversion. I mean, if the hit cap is 500, and we have 250 base Spirit, we'd only need 250 hit instead of 500 hit like other classes. It's definitely a bonus for us: we get free hit from our base stats.

The real question is whether Spirit is considered a "Primary Stat" in Cataclysm anymore... I know it's a healer-only sort of stat, but that doesn't really say anything.

Ghostcrawler: You can’t use primary stats like agility, strength and intellect, but you can use all of the secondary stats like hit, crit, haste, parry, dodge, things like that.


As a side note though, the only slots we would have to really worry about Spirit being on are Wrists and Belts. Everything else will have a DPS-comparable item, none of which will require Spirit (rings, neck, etc). I doubt they'll put spirit on our Tier pieces... but I wouldn't put it past them either.

#42 Hamlet

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 12:52 AM

Spirit as a secondary stat was confirmed today. And we probably could have inferred anyway from its being omitted from MotW.

#43 Cdin

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 03:26 PM

It is an interesting point though that we do have an initial amount of Spirit, therefore we require less spirit through gear due to the 100% conversion. I mean, if the hit cap is 500, and we have 250 base Spirit, we'd only need 250 hit instead of 500 hit like other classes. It's definitely a bonus for us: we get free hit from our base stats.

I thougth about that also, and was a little surprised that BoP still had a full 4% when the trees came out. However I don't think it is that big of an issue.

First, having the 225-250 base spirit would give us a lower hit cap relative to other classes, but it wouldn't be all that different then were we are currently. At level 60 a full 17% hit cap was 136 hit rating, at 70 it was 215, and at 80 it is 446. As you can see the way that the hit cap is increasing is not linier. At minimum the 85 17% hit cap will probalby be close to 1000. When you consider the amount of gear inflation we had in WotLK, I would expect it to be betwee 1300 and 1400. So lets assume that it is 1350. If that is the 17% cap then you need 79.41 Hit rating to get a 1% hit chance. With BoP our cap is reduced to 1033. If I assume that base spirit at level 85 is 250 then moonkin will need 783 hit rating to cap. That is roughly 9.86% hit chance we need to get from gear and is pretty much the situation we are in right now.

The second thing to remember is that Blizzard has said that the hit cap will scale with the content in Cataclysm. So, it will be more difficult to hit cap.

If this goes live, I would probably complain if I was a Mage or a Warlock, but I don't think it throws moonkin way out of balance.
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#44 Curlymon

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 04:00 PM

Regarding StarSurge and the implication that it decides which energy to reward based on an increasing scale of damage as we near the Lunar or Solar extremes.

The way that way Lunar Guidance reads implies that it increases which ever energy has more rather then what type of damage it does. No matter which damage type it ends up doing it will always move the slider towards the nearest extreme.

I get the feeling that we will nuke our way towards one extreme and use StarSurge to push us into the appropriate eclipse.

If the slider does indeed increase the damage done by their respective damage types I suspect we will see MF+Starfall at the Arcane end and IS+Mushroom at the nature end.

__

In regards to Spirit -> Hit conversion. I think we will still find gear that is Int/Haste/Crit and we will stack Spirit as we currently stack Hit now. We will just pick up gear with different stats in the remaining spots as per usual gearing methods.

#45 Curlymon

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 04:13 PM

With the current released talent build it is possible to get Heart of the Wild in the feral tree for a 20% boost to Int. I'm not sure if it is an entirely viable talent build but it is a large boost. If it is not changed in someway before release we might see some pretty badly wasted talent points in the feral tree to gain this talent. Taken along side Furor that would be a 32% boost to Int.

#46 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 05:13 PM

I am very skeptical that any +% stat talents are going to remain no matter what the class is. These modifiers were more or less used to prop up the main stats of the various classes. However, with Cataclysm there is a major shift to focus in on those stats instead. Why prop up something that should already be fairly important? You're always going to want more agi, str, or int. There's no need to really make them more appealing.

In the end, they really only amount to a static buff to your damage, which is something they're trying to get rid of more or less. As I said, I would be very surprised if these talents survived the overhaul. Maybe a talent like Furor and Master Shapeshifter, because those are form-dependent and make them slightly more dynamic. Also, with Moonkin Form being completely stripped down, those two talents are the only only personal buffs you get for being in Moonkin Form, but that is also something I'd be surprised if not changed.

#47 Videl

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 10:35 PM

Under a system where there is both the eclipse buff and a positional damage bonus from the eclipse meter the penalty for interruptions is going to be heavily dependant on where in the rotation it occurs and how long it lasts. There really wouldn't be any kind of extra penalty for an interruption that occured right after eclipse procced or while charging the meter up with no eclipse (beyond what any caster would experience for being forced to use instants or stop dps for a period). On the other hand, if you were halfway through your eclipse and got a long interruption you'd be pretty well screwed, needing to start more or less from scratch and losing your eclipse buff to boot.

I don't see how there couldn't ultimately be a cooldown or forced alternation on eclipse if there is both a damage boost during the buff and from the meter (which would mean all the worst predictions about getting extra screwed by interruptions are correct). What would discourage the behavior that some people originally predicted in which you just hovered near one end of the meter?

Assumptions:
The effect of the meter is linear so the net effect of charging the meter up is half of the effect at full power.
There's no memory or momentum effect as I'd hoped attached to moving the meter (I think we would have atleast got it hinted at from someone in alpha at this point).
The meter buff and the eclipse buff are additive if they're able to overlap (buffs on self have had a tendency to be in the past, even if they're from somewhat different sources, it simplifies the math and wouldn't change it dramatically if it's incorrect).

Under those conditions we'd be comparing 50% eclipse uptime and 50% full meter buff uptime to unknown eclipse uptime and 25% effective full meter buff uptime. Right out of the gate it's obvious that it has to be greater than 50%. I was too lazy to pull out a piece of paper and check my head math, but it seems to me like you need to have an eclipse uptime of atleast 50% + 25%*(full meter buff/eclipse buff) before swinging even starts to pull ahead. That's real eclipse uptime, subtracting out any time you spend interrupted or casting other spells.
Hovering would also leverage starsurge better, allowing it to be cast on cooldown with the meter buff near maximum. It would also level out the chaotic nature of the buffs to different spells, simplifying spell decisions quite a bit. Of course, as the necessary eclipse uptime goes up, the penalty for a long interruption occuring when you are near the middle of the meter goes up pretty dramatically as well because maintaining a high uptime leaves less room for any kind of errors. If wrath/starfire or nature/arcane in general have different DPET that provides a further boost to hovering that I didn't account for due to hovering near the better side.

If the optimal behavior is hovering I think we can expect a series of hamfisted fixes until we end up swinging back and forth. Not fun.

P.S. It helps me to think of the eclipse interruption problem in terms of balance druids starting with low dps abilities then using high dps abilities while all other specs start with their highest dps abilites then move to lower dps ones (for many that sums up their entire decision making process). Any interruption of any class tends to move them towards starting over again. Not that this is any new info, just a convenient way to look at it.

#48 Ranghar

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 10:14 PM

Ok, I was looking at the talents and I am greatly concerned about the spirit -> hit talent in a raid setting. For comparative sake, my base spirit with Improved Mark is 162. Mark gives another 52, toss in spirit and kings and thats probably another 100. Id be sitting at 310 spirit naked.

Take a look at a rating conversion table in public discussion subforum. If it is true, your 310 spi will give you 2% hit at 85.

#49 Balancemoon

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 03:49 PM

Eclipse makes a lot more sense when you actually try it out.

From a balance druid perspective, I'm really loving Skull bash having a charge element, really craved this feature for the offensive caster, it makes my feral forms a bit more useful, always a plus in my eyes since synergy is so frustratingly low especially since cataclysm, 3rd expansion running and no incentive to spec into the feral tree and pick up feral charge which is a useful caster tool.


Self healing capability is looking really poor for balance druids atm, I'm seeing warlocks, rogues (which i also use), ferals, warriors, ret/prot palas and DKs all having superior self healing capability than balance druids. Relatively it is a concern, because despite the higher control a balance druid will no doubt have in cataclysm - regen is looking overly costly and slow in comparison. It needs an easy health recovery mechanism if nothing more is going to be done about the builds healing capacity. Maybe shapeshifting to moonkin refreshes hots or owlkin frenzy trigger allows an instant cast beneficial effect similar to predatory strikes in the feral tree, that would do nicely.


Moonkin form is the biggest disappointment of cataclysm for balance druids, it seems more pointless now, especially if you're like me who doesn't like sitting in that form... I sincerely hope that before beta is done, they do something interesting with it, personally I'd like to see dynamic shifting mechanism, periods of time when u do more damage if you're in moonkin form and others when you do more damage if you're in caster form, so you have to use both forms to maximize your damage, like maybe a lunar eclipse moonkin form does more damage and in a solar caster form does, but the 6% crit and 6% haste is available regardless of form. They could spice it up even more by given a 45 sec empower mode with a 5 min cooldown where casting in moonkin form can do some awesome things with starfall, moonfire and starfire, and maybe give some perks to casting some spells in caster form, like maybe 1 hurricane ever 1min can be cast without channelling in caster form. Just something more interesting than this, For what it is worth, Moonkin form like it is now is less valuable than shadow form, and really druids are the ones that have the shapeshifting thing to their class, i expect ToL to be more meaningful than metamorphosis and I expect Moonkin form to be more meaningful and dynamic/fun than shadow form -- because shapeshifting is the druid thing, it's our unique aspect of casting, like totems are to shaman or pets to warlocks, personally I rolled a balance druid to have a caster with shapeshifting involved, and at tm, shadow priests have more going on with that mechanic, this just doesn't feel right.

#50 Hamlet

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 07:44 AM

Add this GC Beta forum post to the OP: World of Warcraft: Cataclysm Beta - (English) Forums -> Moonkin Major Concerns (12065 & 12122) .

Comments: In short, nothing said about Eclipse or NG in this post makes any sense. (Usual caveat: GC posts are generally intended to mollify clueless WoW General denizens as opposed to providing good information to serious players, but I was kind of hoping the alpha forums would be different).

Eclipse only being able to alternate: why? This adds nothing. If the system works at all coherently, you will never have an incentive to proc the same Eclipse twice in a row, because you'll be well over halfway to the opposite Eclipse when the current one ends. Only in the case of a heavy casting interruption could this technique be useful, and I see no reason to disallow it then. They're stamping out one of the small bits of serious player choice that the current system would have allowed.

Adding a mechanic to make Eclipse more random: I can only assume this was written on opposite day. Really? You redesigned the entire system to be based on a visible bar rather than on a random proc, and how you somehow think it's a bad thing that it's not random enough? I'm at a loss.

NG as a haste buff that multiples your current haste rating: again, why? This changes basically nothing except to make haste rating a bit stronger. It no way affects anything else of significance (such as haste caps).

Movement: He confirms that WoC is intended to be used while moving. So far, he's not said anything abjectly wrong, only obvious. Then he goes on to say that Eclipse will buff Moonfire, which is not something I've ever heard about happening on alpha or beta.

Talent comments: usual buzzword filler.



Ok, think I got that out of my system. Even in the excitement of beta, I really need to be firm in my resolve to not read official WoW forums.

#51 Balancemoon

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:49 AM

Ok, think I got that out of my system. Even in the excitement of beta, I really need to be firm in my resolve to not read official WoW forums.


I had to smile at that comment, although I am forced to read the forum to see if anything worthwhile is added, but then now the NDA is lefted, MMO champion and WoR do a pretty good job of catching the blue responses.

Don't seem to see that many requests for information or quality feedback from balance druid players. Shame though, when this happens I wonder if they think everyone is satisfied with the status quo.

Anyway, maybe someone can explain to me why it is now necessary to change NG with the wrath cast time upped to 2.5 secs? I was under the impression the complaint against the talent was only because it was causing the short cast time spell was clipping too easily wit that proc. Now that it's modified is there a need to change it to be based off haste rating than overall haste? Wouldn't overall haste be better for scaling?

NG is now the only ability crit procced for balance. The eclipse change seems to primarily remove the randomness of eclipse not really address movement at all. The crit dependency drops drastically and haste as the second mastery now becomes the main focus. This I feel is good for gear, most resto gear will have haste and spirit on it, so good haste scaling is a good thing, but bear in mind that now, NG procs would be less frequent. The TBR note I hope means they may change what causes it to proc from crit to something else rather than change from overall haste to haste rating.

Finally regarding gear. I'm not looking forward to sharing neck/back/fingers with healers for rolls, especially in 25 mans, which would likely mean competing with 10 players for a slot incl shadow priests and ele shaman, which is why I hope that one would be able to reach the hit cap with spirit wrists/waist & feet, leaving neck/back/fingers to be largely crit/haste based, sharing that with mages and locks.

Ideally I'd like:
4/5 Tier leather for balance to have crit/haste
1/5 tier to be spirit/haste
wrist/waist/feet (leather) spirit/haste
neck/back/fingers crit/haste

we can toy with weapons & off hands to buff up which ever stats need plugging. This all depends on what hit rating would be required at 85, but hopefully one would need no more than 3-4 maybe max 5 to use spirit, really really don't want to roll with healers on neck/back/fingers. Weapons won't be fun either so I think I'd rather roll with mages/locks on the none sword drops. We shall see.

#52 lissanna

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 12:59 AM

It's possible that we may not need Nature's Grace to change since they increased wrath's cast time.

I posted a lot about resto & moonkin on the Alpha/Beta forums when we had new info to work with. My problem at this point is that the wrath's cast time is the only real substantial change they've made in the last month or so for balance druids. I can only talk about Eclipse and moonfire so many times before I just feel super redundant. When there is a new build to test, I'll be all over posting new comments and suggestions on the forums.

Balance doesn't feel like it has a good PvE rotation yet, and I'm hoping that we get changes to pull together something that feels more fun & interesting.

#53 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 04:23 PM

For those who haven't yet read this, I strongly suggest it. This pretty much puts any discussion almost dead in the water until further information is released.

Cataclysm Class & Mastery Systems Update

A brief synopsis would be that they are making trees 31 points, back to their original size from vanilla. When you reach level 10, you choose your specialization and that rewards you with an iconic ability from that tree (probably Eclipse or possibly Moonkin Form for us) as well as passive bonuses for that specific tree that cannot be gained in any other way. Furthermore, you won't be able to put talents into another tree until you have put 31 into your specific role and they are reducing the total number of talent points to 41 (just like in vanilla).

This basically throws out the entire Mastery system they have been building up until now. "Mastey" won't scale with talents anymore. It's just a simple, you choose X spec, you get Y buffs, and that's it. As far as what happens to the Mastery stat and the class specific bonuses:

The Mastery bonus that was unique to each tree will now be derived from the Mastery stat, found on high-level items, and Mastery will be a passive skill learned from class trainers around level 75. In most cases, the Mastery stats will be the same as the tree-unique bonuses we announced earlier this year. These stats can be improved by stacking Mastery Rating found on high-level items.


So if I'm reading this right, Eclipse is likely to be our level 75 Mastery passive. In order for that to be the case, they will have to dump a lot of the talents which are related to Eclipse (since you won't even have access to the ability until lvl 75). I also don't think Moonkin Form will end up being our lvl 10 unique ability either simply because of the armor bonus it provides being plate-quality, which is something that you only have access to after lvl 40.

Enough pandering though. Until we have more information about this wide sweeping changes, there's not a lot to discuss.

#54 Hamlet

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 04:44 PM

Remember there were 51 points in vanilla.

Saying is throws out the Mastery system is hasty, they're just changing the window dressing. Before this change, every single Moonkin spec would have 51+ points in the tree and get the max bonus to all Masteries, yes? Now we'll have "Balance" selected as our sub-class and automatically get the max (or constant) Masteries. Nothing changes at the top level.

#55 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 08:25 PM

At the very least they will have to alter their approach to Eclipse. Talents like Euphoria and Lunar Guidance aren't even relevant without Eclipse, which is likely not to be available until level 75. If talents are intended to be more "interesting" or "fun" then I have a hard time buying into the fact that we will have any that boost an ability we don't gain until level 75. They have been taking a very hard look at the leveling process this time around.

The other alternative is that they could make Eclipse into the "active" ability given to Balance Druids at level 10, but then what becomes of our Mastery bonus? How would Eclipse even be considered active anyway? Furthermore, what will they do with it if it's not effected by Mastery?

In either scenario, they'll forced to make sweeping changes and take a second look at Eclipse.

#56 Adoriele

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 08:49 PM

How would Eclipse even be considered active anyway?


Make it an active ability. Press button to convert your stored lunar or solar energy into a damage buff for a short period of time. 10s cooldown, 15s duration. I really doubt this would happen, as it would be a huge paradigm shift for Eclipse, removes the ability for it to be affected by Mastery stat (unless they make an exception for Balance Druids), and the most obvious active ability for Balance is Moonkin Form since it's so iconic (though it's really just a passive ability).

#57 Hamlet

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 08:57 PM

Make it an active ability. Press button to convert your stored lunar or solar energy into a damage buff for a short period of time. 10s cooldown, 15s duration. I really doubt this would happen, as it would be a huge paradigm shift for Eclipse, removes the ability for it to be affected by Mastery stat (unless they make an exception for Balance Druids), and the most obvious active ability for Balance is Moonkin Form since it's so iconic (though it's really just a passive ability).


Funny, we'd never talked about just making Eclipse activated but on first glance it seems like it could be really neat. I won't go too far into armchair talent design, but it could do everything you want (and could still scale with Mastery if you wanted). If they don't want to totally overhaul the model as much, they could do something with Starsurge to give us a lot more control, as we've discussed.

I think they've confirmed in one of the many blue replies on that thread that our signature ability will not be Moonkin Form (which is good because it's lame). Don't know what it might be though. Eclipse seems like the best option (even though it's not "activated" in the current design); it's just the most defining ability in the way the whole spec plays out. Otherwise maybe Starfall, although soloing with that could be weird. A big talent redesign could be nice a chance to make Moonkin Form less pointless anyway though.

Hard to resist speculating, hopefully details are out soon.

#58 Adoriele

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 09:09 PM

Funny, we'd never talked about just making Eclipse activated but on first glance it seems like it could be really neat. I won't go too far into armchair talent design, but it could do everything you want (and could still scale with Mastery if you wanted). If they don't want to totally overhaul the model as much, they could do something with Starsurge to give us a lot more control, as we've discussed.

I think they've confirmed in one of the many blue replies on that thread that our signature ability will not be Moonkin Form (which is good because it's lame). Don't know what it might be though. Eclipse seems like the best option (even though it's not "activated" in the current design); it's just the most defining ability in the way the whole spec plays out. Otherwise maybe Starfall, although soloing with that could be weird. A big talent redesign could be nice a chance to make Moonkin Form less pointless anyway though.

Hard to resist speculating, hopefully details are out soon.


Well, Eclipse is probably, if they make it active, the best-fitting ability. It's iconic, unlike Surge (seems to be, from someone who's never seen the spell in action), and ties together both halves of the Balance world - something Force of Nature and Starfall, our other two iconic abilities don't do. I think the only reason it hasn't been considered here before is because Blizzard's seemed pretty opposed to making it something the Player has direct control over in the past.

#59 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 09:10 PM

I was marveling at the simplistic and welcoming change such an implementation of Eclipse could be.

However, I'd honestly think that Starsurge, if done right, is mostly likely to become our iconic ability. It's as you said, the only ability that really melds the two worlds of the Balance druid other than Eclipse. Overhauling Eclipse, as welcome as that would be, seems highly unlikely at this point. It's weird to suggest that because we've never had such a spell in our arsenal before, but when you really think about it there's never been anything iconic about Balance druids other than Moonkin Form before.

Starfall, Typhoon, and Force of Nature are the only active abilities that really come close to that niche but like we've discussed, they are each only apart of one half of the Druid equation. Starsurge straddles that gap best.

#60 Celdhyrean

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 07:41 AM

I was marveling at the simplistic and welcoming change such an implementation of Eclipse could be.

I don't. Since Eclipse is such a big part of our efficiency we would need to activate it as ideally as possible, which means having two versions of SF and wrath, one with Eclipse macroed in and one without (also the same for Starsurge). It's doable and the result does indeed allow us to finely control Eclipse, but it's clunky.




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