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#21 kalbear

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 10:10 AM

you guys are speaking that "Hey, let's put a defensive cooldown in Pulverize's place instead of another attack!"?

Sure. Or have pulverize be a net threat loss (the cost of building up the lacerate stack + loss of bleeds) but provide something more defensively. I wouldn't even mind if it did a lot of frontloaded threat right away to counterbalance the slow tick of lacerates, in the same way that FB works well at finishing off mobs when you don't want a bleed.

But in general, I think bears have been very much starved for abilities to use that actually affect their defensive damage intake. It's been demo roar, and that's it outside of cooldowns. There's a lot of room to add to this, and pulverize is perfect for that sort of thing. If it isn't pulverize, it should be something like pulverize - something that costs threat but adds defense.

#22 Paona

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 07:46 AM

Hm. Maybe. But with a name like Pulverize? It demands a power with appropriately brutal effects. Instead of +10 to 15% dodge, it'd be nice if it were something like trading all the stacks of Lacerate for -Hit debuff and maybe a Disarm effect. Maybe a +Crit debuff. It'd keep things interesting, to say the least. (I'd suggest a Sunder Armor/FFF effect, but that would be duplicating the effect and thus redundant... unless it's meant to be used that way to quickly apply multiple stacks of Sunder Armor.)

#23 Haloran

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 07:48 AM

There is a DPS gain involved, albeit a marginal one: with (a single) point in primal madness, you can effectively berserk 10 energy higher without wasting any due to overflow, which means an effective gain of 10 energy every time berserk is used...


The possibility is, that increased maximum energy also increases energy regeneration for the duration. That might make Primal Madness quite a nice talent.

#24 Paona

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 07:16 AM

So, Allison Robert over at Wow.com has a different take on Pulverize... Which pretty much completely changes how we've been looking at it so far. Instead of consuming all the stacks of Lacerate at once... well, I'll let her explain it.

(NEW) Pulverize: Requires Dire Bear Form. Deals 100% weapon damage plus additional 786 damage for each of your Lacerate applications on the target, and increases your melee critical strike chance by 2% for each Lacerate application consumed for 10 seconds.

The wording has been changed a bit from when we first saw it. I'm still not completely clear on what it does, but I think it costs you one Lacerate on your target in return for the instant damage and the 10-second (16 seconds with Endless Carnage) critical strike boost. There's no cooldown and it's an instant attack, but it'll also run you 20 rage each time, so this really isn't a spammable deal unless you're in a high-rage scenario. With a full rage bar and a full stack of 5 Lacerates, you could theoretically spam Pulverize, obliterate your stack (and your rage bar in the process), and get a huge threat boost in return.


It's not quite the threat vs. survival ability we were hoping for, but this makes things just a *wee* bit more interesting. Now, I don't know *what* is supposed to stop you from just continually eating a charge of Lacerate every sixteen seconds, then re-applying the next GCD... but I have to say, that *does* seem like it would change our current low-threat problem, and it feels like it would fit in just fine as part of our tanking rotation. Heck, I can see us seeing us... well. Basically what she said. We see our threat getting a little dicey, popping Enrage, then mashing Pulverize out five times to pad our threat lead back out.

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 07:24 AM

I dont quite understand why some of you would want to trade Pulverize(an addition to our otherwise boring threat rotation) for a defensive cooldown of sorts, thus making a scenario where we sacrifice threat for survivability. We should be able to get both an addition to our threat arsenal(tuning the diff abilities are easy so it wont get over the top) and have a medium cooldown addition to our defensive capabilities to make us feel more tanky, and less dps-from-the-front.

#26 Hamlet

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 07:25 AM

I don't really see why you would read it that way. It would also be very strange for the damage to be proportional to the stacks on the target if it only consumed one stack.

#27 Vaccine

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 07:42 AM

That's a completely retarded way to read what is a pretty self-explanatory ability. How on earth do you read "for each stack consumed" as "consumes one stack"?

The obvious intent is for it to be an ability you use to keep the crit buff up for your other attacks. I don't know why people are pining for it to become a defensive cooldown when it makes our rotation more interesting, if you feel we need another defensive cooldown why try to cannibalise an existing ability? Why not ask for the 4pT10 baseline on Berserk or a new CD?
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#28 Paona

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 09:57 AM

That's a completely retarded way to read what is a pretty self-explanatory ability. How on earth do you read "for each stack consumed" as "consumes one stack"?

The obvious intent is for it to be an ability you use to keep the crit buff up for your other attacks. I don't know why people are pining for it to become a defensive cooldown when it makes our rotation more interesting, if you feel we need another defensive cooldown why try to cannibalise an existing ability? Why not ask for the 4pT10 baseline on Berserk or a new CD?


Because we all know that Blizzard's tooltips are always absolutely precise and completely free of ambiguity, right? (See: Survival of the Fittest, and where it's easily misconstrued that you only get all three benefits when in Bear form.)

Honestly, now. I'm not the one who misread it (if it is misread at all), but I saw how it could be interesting if it functioned that way, and thought I'd call some attention to it.

It could also be argued that how on earth do you read "for each stack consumed" as "consumes all stacks?"

Pulverize: Deals 120% weapon damage plus additional 943 damage for each of your Lacerate applications on the target, and increases your melee critical strike chance by 2% for each Lacerate application consumed for 10 seconds.

I shall defer answering the question to the need of another defensive cooldown to Kalbear or Alarron to answer that, they know why they want one, I don't.

I don't really see why you would read it that way. It would also be very strange for the damage to be proportional to the stacks on the target if it only consumed one stack.


My feeling is that Blizzard likes the ramp-up mechanic that they added into many of the ICC items. I would not be surprised if Blizzard wants us to ramp-up five-stack of Pulverize +crit buff and juggle that with a five-stack of Lacerate. Now, since Druids are the only tank class that have been released so far, we can't really tell whether or not this is how tanking will work in the new expansion, but I think it's significant enough to keep in mind until we either see more previews, or are able to actually test what the power does exactly.

Previous contents below,

Not really. I see it as incentivizing using Pulverize at a full stack of Lacerate, as well as an additional reward for rolling a full stack of Lacerate and not letting it drop off. I can also see an argument for encouraging it to not use as an opener, so you don't wind up with wacky interactions with the Bear effect of Improved Feral Charge.

#29 kalbear

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 06:11 PM

I don't want a specifically large cooldown on defense; I want tanks to have more control about the damage they take and use that as a skill separator. Having just things that do more damage isn't as interesting to me, as that's not a tank's primary job.

I think things like shield block are interesting abilities. I think that with overall damage being important due to mana consumption, things like avoidance cooldowns can be useful.

Also, pulverize doesn't work like Allison Robert says.

#30 Glandur

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 08:31 PM

Since we haven't seen the crit values for Cataclysm yet, the 10% crit from Pulverize may turn out to be a bigger part of our Savage Defense uptime than it is now.
Blizzard has stated many times that they want to make it harder to reach very high crit values - I see Pulverize as a mixture between an offensive and a defensive ability, with more emphasis on offense.

#31 Rainman5419

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 03:26 PM

So, Allison Robert over at Wow.com has a different take on Pulverize
...Now, I don't know *what* is supposed to stop you from just continually eating a charge of Lacerate every sixteen seconds, then re-applying the next GCD... but I have to say, that *does* seem like it would change our current low-threat problem, and it feels like it would fit in just fine as part of our tanking rotation. Heck, I can see us seeing us... well. Basically what she said. We see our threat getting a little dicey, popping Enrage, then mashing Pulverize out five times to pad our threat lead back out.


Arawethion is right here. This interpretation ignores the "for each Lacerate application" part of the ability and makes it sound like a rage dump, which Blizz seems to be making Maul/Heroic Strike territory. If it worked as this person described I'd expect wording much more similar to Conflag or Swiftmend.

I see Pulverize as a dual function ability as Glandur says, which plays into Blizzard's intent with Savage Defense turning DPS stats into tanking stats. That said, I'm sure I'll miss the 4pc t10 bonus if our tank CDs stay as is.

#32 Hinalover

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 04:26 PM

I am not sure if anyone has realized this, since it wasn't mentioned in the OP, but apparently they are taking out Feral Attack Power stat altogether. Instead of having the Feral Attack Power formula

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We are basing our attacks solely on our Weapon Damage. Hence the reason why we are seeing all of these "Deals 120% Weapon Damage". Granted this was mentioned in the Stats Changes thread linked in the OP, but as stated, it was not specifically mentioned by the OP.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Cataclysm Stat & System Changes

Feral attack power will be gone. The damage of the weapon affects cat and bear attacks like other melee classes.



#33 Paona

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:44 AM

Excerpted from the new ability tooltips released in today shift from Closed Alpha to Closed Beta, posted on MMO-Champion:

Lacerate: Lacerates the enemy target, dealing 31 damage and making them bleed for 155 damage over 15 sec and causing a high amount of threat. Damage increased by attack power. This effect stacks up to 5 times on the same target. 15 Rage, 5 yd range, Instant

Well, there's your threat right there. I note that neither Swipe nor Thrash have this "high amount of threat" text in them, which leads me to believe that our AoE threat will not be as strong as it once was. I feel like Blizzard wants to move us away from our Swipe-swipe-swipe method of AoE tanking, more towards the Warrior school of tab-targetting around hitting things.

Another thing of note: Mangle's energy cost is unchanged, but the damage is changed from 200% weapon damage + 198 to 230% + 228 at level 50. (Using the level 50 numbers, because MMO-champion doesn't have the level 85 numbers on Mangle posted.) Obviously, a move on Blizzard's part to make Mangle scale better. I'm still hopeful that Shredless hybrid builds will be viable for tanking/swing DPS. Now, I know that they were going to buff Mangle, but that's... kind of hefty, isn't it?

#34 Glandur

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:56 AM

Bear changes that I picked up:

Faerie Fire (Bear) now costs 15 rage:

Faerie Fire (Bear)
30 yd range
15 Rage
6 sec cooldown
Instant cast
Decrease the armor of the target by 4% for 30 sec. While affected, the target cannot stealth or turn invisible. Stacks up to 3 times. Deals [AP*0.15+1] damage and additional threat.


So, spammable with 5/5 Feral aggression, pending rage.
Needs to be refreshed every 30 seconds - but still has additional threat and packs a decent punch.

Loosing a rage-free pulling tool will take some minor adjustment. It's too bad that the rage cost is above the rage gained from furor.

Vengeance
Vengeance bonus at 51 talent points in the tanking tree is set to 5% for all tanks.

The mastery tooltip for the different tank specs all indicate that
"Each time you take damage, you gain a percentage of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of twice your Vengeance percentage of your health.".
There is no different wording for druids, giving us a potential massive AP buff. We'll see if it makes it to live in this unmodified state.

Feral interrupt
Skull bash requires two talent points in brutal impact to reduce it to a 10 second cooldown, untalented cooldown is one minute:

Skull Bash
18 yd range
25 Energy
1 min cooldown
Instant
You charge and skull bash the target, interrupting spellcasting and preventing any spell in that school from being cast for 5 sec.

Skull Bash
18 yd range
1 Rage
1 min cooldown
Instant
You charge and skull bash the target, interrupting spellcasting and preventing any spell in that school from being cast for 5 sec.



#35 Mjoedgaard

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 09:50 AM

Excerpted from the new ability tooltips released in today shift from Closed Alpha to Closed Beta, posted on MMO-Champion:

Lacerate: Lacerates the enemy target, dealing 31 damage and making them bleed for 155 damage over 15 sec and causing a high amount of threat. Damage increased by attack power. This effect stacks up to 5 times on the same target. 15 Rage, 5 yd range, Instant

Well, there's your threat right there. I note that neither Swipe nor Thrash have this "high amount of threat" text in them, which leads me to believe that our AoE threat will not be as strong as it once was. I feel like Blizzard wants to move us away from our Swipe-swipe-swipe method of AoE tanking, more towards the Warrior school of tab-targetting around hitting things.

Another thing of note: Mangle's energy cost is unchanged, but the damage is changed from 200% weapon damage + 198 to 230% + 228 at level 50. (Using the level 50 numbers, because MMO-champion doesn't have the level 85 numbers on Mangle posted.) Obviously, a move on Blizzard's part to make Mangle scale better. I'm still hopeful that Shredless hybrid builds will be viable for tanking/swing DPS. Now, I know that they were going to buff Mangle, but that's... kind of hefty, isn't it?


Shred will still be supirior to mangle, because of glyph of rip, shredding attacks and mangle debuff, but if forced too mangle is no longer a huge dps lose.

#36 Hoofhearted

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 10:02 AM

Lacerate: Lacerates the enemy target, dealing 31 damage and making them bleed for 155 damage over 15 sec and causing a high amount of threat. Damage increased by attack power. This effect stacks up to 5 times on the same target. 15 Rage, 5 yd range, Instant

Well, there's your threat right there.

Lacerate - Spell - World of Warcraft It is like this on live.

#37 Paona

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 05:05 PM

Lacerate - Spell - World of Warcraft It is like this on live.


I know it's like that on live, but my point being that Lacerate now looks to be definitively the focus point around which our ST tanking rotation revolves around, with all of its Pulverize interactions, instead of sharing spots with Mangle/Maul. Should have made that more clear, sorry.

Also: Something Glandur posted caught my eye:

Skull Bash
18 yd range
1 Rage
1 min cooldown
Instant
You charge and skull bash the target, interrupting spellcasting and preventing any spell in that school from being cast for 5 sec.


....One rage? That's a bit odd. Tooltip typo, maybe? Then I did some digging and found this:

Feral Charge
8-25 yd range
5 Rage
15 sec cooldown
Instant
Causes you to charge an enemy, immobilizing them for 4 sec.


So instead of giving us a new interrupt, basically all they did was unlink our current interrupt from our Feral Charge. Slightly disappointing, but reasonable. What annoys me, though, is that we have to talent into Brutal Impact in order to bring Skull Bash into the role of Shield Bash-analogue that we were promised.

Shred will still be superior to mangle, because of glyph of rip, shredding attacks and mangle debuff, but if forced to mangle is no longer a huge dps loss.


Fixed your spelling for you. And yes, Shred has always been superior to Mangle. Now the question remains is, "How good are the numbers that a mangle-based scrub Feral puts up relative to a Feral that does the full rotation?"

#38 Paona

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 05:24 PM

whoops, DP.

#39 blacksuit

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 07:42 PM

On my first try it seemed easy to pick up all of the cat dps talents needed for single target dps, but on further reflection some choices will have to be made. I can see uses for Imp Feral Charge, Feral Instinct, Imp Mangle, Brutal Impact, even Survival of the Fittest has some situational uses.

The content will dictate which talents are most useful. Brutal Impact seems too good to pass up. It's kind of disappointing that naturalist was moved further down the tree. Nom Nom Nom is nice but it seems to mandate taking Feral Aggression. The 5 extra talent points we have get used up pretty quickly with those changes.

#40 kalbear

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 10:15 PM

Imp mangle has almost no situational use. Survival of the Fittest is only useful in hybrid builds. I was able to take virtually every optional talent that would have any reasonable use for cats - and point of fact, with the tree the way it is currently you have to take non-cat talents early on to get anywhere. And that's at level 80.

Nom Nom Nom requires no feral aggression; you use FB instead of rip when your target is at 25% or less. It's a huge win of DPS at that point regardless; essentially it makes rip do 20-25k damage on initial application.




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