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#41 blacksuit

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 11:11 PM

Imp mangle has almost no situational use. Survival of the Fittest is only useful in hybrid builds. I was able to take virtually every optional talent that would have any reasonable use for cats - and point of fact, with the tree the way it is currently you have to take non-cat talents early on to get anywhere. And that's at level 80.

Nom Nom Nom requires no feral aggression; you use FB instead of rip when your target is at 25% or less. It's a huge win of DPS at that point regardless; essentially it makes rip do 20-25k damage on initial application.


I can't determine what you're referring to when you say "you have to take non-cat talents... to get anywhere."

I think you took me too literally when you say that FA isn't required for NNN. To clarify, I was pointing out that with NNN, we will be using FB quite a bit more, hence FA becomes more valuable. However, this point is probably moot because there seems to be no reason not to take FA in the new talent trees. FA is a no brainer.

One preliminary question I have is to what extent Ravage, with Imp Feral Charge (IFC), will be useful in raids. When movement is required, it might be optimal to charge either out or back in, and use 2-4 ravages rather than the normal rotation.

The second question, as I noted, is to weed out which utility talents are best. Imp Mangle will really only be useful if they throw another meaningful Kologarn fight at us, which seems unlikely. We skip it now, and it seems safe to continue doing that in Cataclysm. Brutal Impact is probably the most important utility talent for cat. Other than that, we have some options, which I believe was the stated design goal. I'm thinking something like this at the present time:

WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie

#42 Wickedgirl

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:30 AM

One thing that struck me as important from the list of items of ILvl 270+, posted on MMO-C - seems they went ahead with making idols "pure stats" items:

Fetish of Azrajar - Items - Sigrie
Can I tell you something about apricots? ... 1 in 30 is a good one. It's such a low percentage fruit.

#43 Paona

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 05:45 AM

I can't determine what you're referring to when you say "you have to take non-cat talents... to get anywhere."

I think you took me too literally when you say that FA isn't required for NNN. To clarify, I was pointing out that with NNN, we will be using FB quite a bit more, hence FA becomes more valuable. However, this point is probably moot because there seems to be no reason not to take FA in the new talent trees. FA is a no brainer.

One preliminary question I have is to what extent Ravage, with Imp Feral Charge (IFC), will be useful in raids. When movement is required, it might be optimal to charge either out or back in, and use 2-4 ravages rather than the normal rotation.

The second question, as I noted, is to weed out which utility talents are best. Imp Mangle will really only be useful if they throw another meaningful Kologarn fight at us, which seems unlikely. We skip it now, and it seems safe to continue doing that in Cataclysm. Brutal Impact is probably the most important utility talent for cat. Other than that, we have some options, which I believe was the stated design goal. I'm thinking something like this at the present time:

WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie


Two at most, I think. Three, if Blizzard somehow takes leave of their senses with the Haste-to-Energy regeneration formula. Four is downright unlikely. I foresee Cats grounding out their energy very quickly with Ravage. The energy cost of Feral Charge usually regenerates completely during travel time, (May as well refresh FFF while travelling. Hey, wait! They didn't remove FFF for Cats! Yay! Wait. That means now Cats are going to be eligible for Sunder Armory duty. Boooooo.) the energy cost of Ravage is still 50 after Shredding Attacks. Assuming that two shots of that will ground your Energy, and I doubt that energy will regenerate fast enough during those two GCDs to enable a 3rd Ravage, which means you'll want to pop Tiger's Fury, and then resume your standard rotation from there.

#44 nightcrowler

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:21 AM

Hi everybody, I was (and still) inactive for a while but I think I'll go back playing for cataclysm.

------Shred vs. Mangle ---------------

Looking at the new talents and ability revamp in mmo-champions, I'm a bit worried about shred.

It seems that the dps incresase of shred usage over mangle spam is "only" around 6%

Actually a mangle build (with mangle glyph) will have:
2.3*1.2*1.1*1.3*1.03*1.1/ 34 = 0.1315 AP/Energy scaling,
while shred will have: 2.25*1.2*1.3*1.03*1.1*1.3*1.04/40 = 0.1344 AP/Energy scaling.

So actually mangle will have a better scaling than shred. Shred wins giving a +6 seconds on rip due to the glyph. But I don't know if it really will make the difference considering the better mangle scaling and faster combo points generation.

Consider around 50% crit.

with mangle you can have a 15 sec cycle (12+4=16 sec rip, 15 sec rake, 9+6=15 sec SR) so a 30 seconds for a double cycle with TF.

you need around 3.5 attack for a 5 point rip so 7 attacks for a double cycle and 1*2 = 2 attacks for 1 point SR = 9 total attacks. 2 of them are rake so 5 will be mangle (without counting in ooc proc).

So you spend (34*7+35*2+25*2+30*2-60)/30 = 11.9 energy / second

A shreding cycle will be different. You still have 15 sec rake, rip will be on a 12+4+6=22 sec cycle.
The easier way to see it is as a 90 sec cycle. We will do 4 rip, 6 rake, 3 (3 points) SR, 3 TF. 4 RIPs need 3.5*4=14 cp generating ability, 3 SR (3 points) need 2.5*3 = 7.5 cp generating abilities so we need 14+7.5= 21.5 abilities. So, approximating we need 6 rake and 15 shred.

So you spend (40*15+35*6+25*3+4*30-60*3)/90 = 9.2 energy / second

Shred cycle seems around 20% more efficient.

Considering rake, rip and SR always up the DPS difference (not considering energy difference) is due to the different numbers of mangle/shred made in that time spam.

In 90 seconds we will do 15 shreds (for shred cycle) or 7*3=21 mangles (for mangle cycle)

MAngle scaling is 4.47
While shred scaling is 5.38


In order to make the shred cycle reach the same efficiency of mangle cycle you can thrown in 6 extra shreds (so you can probably do also something like 3-4 shred and a FB) but considering for simplicity 6 extra shred we will have 5.38/4.47 = 22% more damage for shred or (given around 40% if yellow damage due to shred) around 9% more yellow damage using a shred cycle or, considering that yellow damage are around 65% of total damage, around 6% more dps.

Obviously for a better estimate we should do a better map or a simulation.

------- Ravage y/n? ----------

Due to talents, I suppose that if you talent for ravage you are using the "shred cycle".

I'll not take into account the "always crit" for >90% health, it will probably add up something at the begining but we don't know how will be threat management.

Still we will have 6 ravaging seconds every 30 seconds (feral charge). So let's suppose that every 30 seconds you go back a little, feral charge and then ravage. You can link feral charge and tiger's fury (same CD). So for a 90 second cycle you will do that 3 times. Now. The melee range is 5 yard, while you need 8 yard for FC. We can suppose that you can do that in a pair of seconds, losing around 3 auto-attacks. Actually if everything is fine you will have 120+60 = 180 energy during those 6 seconds allowing for 3 ravage. So actually in 90 seconds you will have +9 ravage -9 shred -9 autoattack.

Ravage multiplier is 5.5*1.1*1.3*1.03= 8.1
While shred is 5.38

Energy wise is: Ravage 8.1/50 = 0.162
Shred is 5.38/40 = 0.1344

So ravage is 20.5% more efficient than shred

Overi 21 shred we are now using 12 shred and 9 ravage. So around 43% of our previous shreds are now ravages. If as before we suppose around 40% of yellow damage coming from shreds and around 65% of total damage as yellow, we have a dps increse of around 0.43*0.4*0.65*0.205= 2.3%

If we think that we will lose around 9 auto attacks over 90 seconds (so around 10% of auto attacks) and that white damage will be around 35% of total, we will lose around 3.5% (without counting ooc) of total damage.

So basically the 2 seems to average out, until simulations and real-raid pratice will be difficult to tell the real margin, but it seems pretty low.

For the moment it seems that ravaging vs. not ravaging will average out considering pros and cons.

#45 Cluey

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:57 PM

Also, just to point out: TF is on a 30 second cooldown now, not 20.

Tigers Fury is currently a 30 second cool down. No idea what you were thinking of.

It's probably worthwhile posting a Ghostcaller post from the beta forums regarding glyphs, seeing as a few posts have been using current glyphs as a basis for one thing being better than another.

We haven't updated glyphs yet to reflect the new spell and talent changes. We are going to change glyphs though -- in some cases dramatically.

In general, I suggest not approaching Cataclysm class feedback with statements such as "But this won't work well with the glyph," or "We already have a glyph for that," or "Because of the glyph, we already prioritize spell A over spell B."

Pretend for the time being that glyphs don't exist. Maybe we should have just wiped them all. :)



#46 Melthu

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 03:20 PM

It's much too early to be thinking in terms of rotations. Glyphs, as Cluey pointed out, might as well be a blank slate right now, the talent tree has only been given a first pass, and even the costs and damage of individual abilities are nowhere near set in stone. All we can say with any degree of certainty is that the fundamentals of our rotation are unlikely to change much: keep up SR, Mangle, Rake, Rip, and Shred for combo points, with some new wrinkles of Ferocious Bite <25% and possibly using Ravage when presented with the opportunity.

What I will say is that as of right now Ravage has gotten the same treatment that Rake did during WotLK and if the talent points are available Improved Feral Charge will likely be well worth the investment, if not Predatory Strikes.

#47 Mews

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 06:02 PM

You might wanna consider that Imp Feral charge(Cat)/Predatory strikes is there as a tool to lessen the impact of target switching to adds rather than an addition to the "standard DPS rotation".

#48 Grend

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 06:16 PM

You might wanna consider that Imp Feral charge(Cat)/Predatory strikes is there as a tool to lessen the impact of target switching to adds rather than an addition to the "standard DPS rotation".


As well as this being strictly an addition for feral PvP. It's quite possible for them to tune this completely towards PvP target switches rather than, "Hey this will help ferals in PvP, but let's do X before release so it's useful in PvE as well".

Doesn't need to be useful for PvE at all.

#49 Duilliath

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 07:43 PM

What I will say is that as of right now Ravage has gotten the same treatment that Rake did during WotLK and if the talent points are available Improved Feral Charge will likely be well worth the investment, if not Predatory Strikes.


Someone on the official forums posted that (I assume talented) Ravage was changed to only cost 40 energy (ie. same as talented Shred), which would most definitely make it a worthwhile contender. MMO-Champion's ability list still has it at 60 (ie. 50 talented), so I'm uncertain which of the two is the updated, correct version. 40 energy would make it possible to Ravage three times after a Feral Charge.
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#50 Melthu

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 07:56 PM

As of this moment that is not true - Ravage still costs 60 energy base, 50 talented in the beta. However it does much more damage than Shred: 550% weapon damage + 1705 vs. 365% weapon damage + 1132 (at level 82, with all modifiers that affect Shred but not Ravage). Like I said before, it's much too early in the process to be thinking in terms of rotations, but Blizzard is certainly making an effort to make Ravage more attractive in some fashion.

#51 Vaccine

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 09:50 PM

Is the buff conusmed when you use 1 ravage or can you cast it multiple times during the duration?
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#52 Bonemage

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 05:32 AM

Is the buff conusmed when you use 1 ravage or can you cast it multiple times during the duration?


It's currently bugged, when you charge with the talents ravage vanishes from your cast bars until the buff is gone.

#53 Grend

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 02:18 PM

It's currently bugged, when you charge with the talents ravage vanishes from your cast bars until the buff is gone.


Does it disappear from the spell book as well?

#54 nightcrowler

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 08:30 AM

I've just seen that Blizzard has removed all the attack power from leather. They have also removed Feral Attack power (now we will use weapon damage). My questions are:
- Are they going to change RIP/Rake/FB scaling (now they scale with AP).
- What about bear? Are they going to give us an agility to AP conversion also for bear? Otherwise I see huge damage scaling problems.

#55 Daefecator

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 10:23 AM

I've just seen that Blizzard has removed all the attack power from leather. They have also removed Feral Attack power (now we will use weapon damage). My questions are:
- Are they going to change RIP/Rake/FB scaling (now they scale with AP).
- What about bear? Are they going to give us an agility to AP conversion also for bear? Otherwise I see huge damage scaling problems.


Yes, the new tooltip for Bear Form (they seem to remove gimmick Dire Bear Form and replace it with actual Savage Defense mechanic available at level 40) also states 'Causes agility to increase attack power'.

Source - MMO-Champion.

Other abilities' coefficients can also be previewed on that page.

#56 Duilliath

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:02 AM

Also note that the mana cost has been dropped to 5% of base mana. If you were worrying about the mana cost reducing talents being scrapped, this should make you feel a bit better again.
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#57 Dastey

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 12:29 PM

Old Savage Defense: Absorbs 25% of your attack power
New: Provides a damage absorption shield that absorbs a percentage of incoming attacks (32% at 51 points)

I guess the way it should be understood is that if a boss hits me for 100k I will absorb 32% where before it was probably what? 2,5k at 10k AP?

#58 Moonpie

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 12:43 PM

It's changed to fit with the new block mechanics that Pallys and Warriors also recieve that will mitigate a set percentage of incomming damage. This is to make the tanking classes view block as a significant mitigation tool rather than something that trivialised fast low damage mobs (such as heroic packs or the adds on AN25HM) but was useless against slow larger hits (That most bosses use). In the context of raid bosses its a nice survivability boost for the three tanking classes that use block.

#59 Odas

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 02:26 PM

Old Savage Defense: Absorbs 25% of your attack power
New: Provides a damage absorption shield that absorbs a percentage of incoming attacks (32% at 51 points)

I guess the way it should be understood is that if a boss hits me for 100k I will absorb 32% where before it was probably what? 2,5k at 10k AP?


I was under the impression that the Savage Defense mastery was going to be the one that scales with our mastery stat instead of talent points. Does anyone know if this is implemented yet, and if so what benefits mastery gives?

Also, I saw some conflicting information in "The Tank Thread" on the Cataclysm forums:

Savage Defense is now a 50% chance on Critical Strike to put up a shield worth 75% of our total Attack Power.

I really hope that this is false. Is anyone able to confirm?

#60 Daefecator

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 03:46 PM

Old Savage Defense: Absorbs 25% of your attack power
New: Provides a damage absorption shield that absorbs a percentage of incoming attacks (32% at 51 points)

I guess the way it should be understood is that if a boss hits me for 100k I will absorb 32% where before it was probably what? 2,5k at 10k AP?


As far as I can see from early abilities description, Savage Defense is now 50% chance to proc after our crit to absorb for our AP * 0.75. Mastery bonus increases absorb value by 32% up to our AP * 0.75 * (1 + 0.32) = AP * 1.

So if, for example, you have 50% crit and 10k AP, then new Savage Defense will give you 25% chance on attack to proc absorb shield for up to 10k damage. Savage Defense that we have now gives 50% chance to proc 2.5k absorb shield.

As it stands now, Savage Defense grants low absorb barriers with good uptime. This gives us very good survivability versus light hitting targets, like trash, when soloing old world dungeons etc. Cataclysm significantly buffs absorb value, making it really matter for hard hitting bosses, but also lowers its overall uptime, leaving us more vulnerable to said trash. I see this reflects Blizzard stance on bringing back CC to raids really well.




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