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[WOTLK 4.0] Restoration Discussion


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#1 Carebare

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 05:39 AM

Patch 4.0 is live. You will find patch relevant discussion toward the end of this thread.

This is far from comprehensive, but should address some questions/general concerns. Feel free to PM me if you want something added here.

The basic Restoration build goes like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

There is a lot of subjectivity with the following talents:
  • Revitalize: 1 point is mandatory, 2 might be preferred, 3 seems to be overkill at least during WOTLK
  • Nature's Cure: This is something you should discuss with your raid leader, personally I took it, but it's reasonable in a level 80 spec that you skip it
  • Blessing of the Grove: Depends on how you spend the rest of your talent points, it is not a bad talent, but at level 80 it's not a mandatory talent
  • Swift Rejuvenation: Currently bugged, so either you take 2/2 and rely on the talent, or take 0/2 and rely on your haste. WHATEVER YOU DO 1/2 IS BUGGED DO NOT DO IT. To check your GCD
    /run local start, duration = GetSpellCooldown("Rejuvenation") print(duration)
  • Fury of Stormrage/Malfurion's Gift: Generally deemed to not be worth it, especially in a level 80 build, you'll get more mana conservation with Revitalize/Furor and Fury of Stormrage is obviously terrible.
  • Furor (Feral): A good source of additional MP5 if by some weird way you are having mana issues.
  • Nature's Grace: Up to you, the live version does not trigger on Resto spells, so it can be annoying to work with.

Gear:
  • You should reforge as much crit to haste as you can, with the goal after gemming to be around 1016. Rejuvs ticks are still a shade buggy with regard to how many you get.
  • Reforging Spirit into Crit is not a bad idea provided your mana seems to be okay.
  • Meta of choice seems to be Insightful, which means you'll need a blue gem. Some folks are doing Nightmare's Tear to cover the blue, personally I went with Spirit/Haste green gem to get me over the cap, but whatever works for you.
  • The moonkin idol is better since it has haste. You may care to swap out for now.

Bugs:
  • Swift Rejuvenation as explained above. We may not see this fixed until release.
  • There is a delay in refreshing LB stacks with Nourish, don't cut it too close. We may not see this fixed until release.
  • Tree breaks on balance spells that are not outlined in the tooltip, this is fixed on Beta, so plan on it being fixed for live.

Currently people are finding
:
  • Lifebloom stacks can be refreshed with LB given the overload of mana, Nourish is not finding a tremendous amount of use presently.
  • HT is generally still only paired with NS, but with the current state of Beta this will likely change going into Cataclysm.
  • You should be using Rejuvenation very heavily currently, you have essentially unlimited mana and there is no reason not to.

i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.


#2 Carebare

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 05:55 AM

I think the plan to diversify restoration druids is most definitely the right way to go, but I worry about the execution a bit. Lengthening the cooldown on WG is definitely a step in the right direction, but without a limiting mechanic of some sort (likely mana) I'm not sure how they expect to stop folks from RJing everything in sight, if for nothing else for the instant heal portion granted by talents. This is especially concerning given that we've already been told that health pools will be larger and heals will be smaller, this carves out a pretty large area for druids to (ab)use.

There are definitely some interesting talent changes, and like Hamlet previously posted in the old Cataclysm thread, I too am not crazy about the "execution range" type healing talents. Those talents will probably have situational uses, but similar to the Glyph of Rejuvenation in WOTLK will likely end up null and void. Afterall, 50% hp when healing for more (WOTLK) is not terribly different from 25% hp when healing for less (CATA).

It's still too early to tell how things will pan out, some talents seem very exciting, others lackluster. In terms of how we heal it won't be extremely different from now (assuming you've already bound keys other than RJ/WG). You'll see a larger spread in heal type, but rejuvenation will likely still account for 50%ish of your healing done. Regrowth will definitely be used more, possibly in conjunction with the glyph if you'll be spamming it on the tank and using the HL-glyph type dividends of Efflorescence. Those who found Swiftmend glyph irreplaceable in WOTLK will still rely on it as heavily. It seems like there is still work to go on ToL, so I'll hold off on that talent for now. It definitely has potential, I'm just not entirely hooked on 3/7 of the affected spells being offensive. I'd have rather seen Nourish, Swiftmend, and Rejuvenation in there (not that Rejuvenation needs much buffing, but if it remains my most used spell I think it's reasonable that ToL affects it).

i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.


#3 Reckoner

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 06:07 AM

It seems reasonable to assume that if true spell diversity will be something that's achieved, what would keep you from just RJing everything would be the difference in healing done to more wounded targets through deep healing from mastery. Maybe it won't be worthwhile hotting a target that's not (going to be) below a certain health threshold.

#4 Carebare

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 06:16 AM

Possibly, though depending on how wounded they are, you'd likely still want a rejuvenation on them anyhow to give you the opportunity to mend and also just the benefit of the instant heal amount.

i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.


#5 Vendelin

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 10:12 AM

If Efflorescence is effective enough it might lead druid healing from Rejuv spamming. Especially on fights with an important melee group. However, as it relies on a critical strike it might be dangerous to rely on. However Regrowth does get extra critical chance on low health targets. This might lead to a Tank/raid hybrid way of healing, using regrowth on the tank (often low health) and get some boost healing on the melees. For this to work the relative efficience of this healing tactic must be high enough.

On ToL: I generally like this spell and it gives druid a healing CD which they've been lacking. However the duration and cooldown seems to be a bit long. Important though is that an effective cooldown useable too often might be overpowered. On the speedreduction it is possible that it will be removed according too this qoute by Ghostcrawler:

The speed reduction thing is something we're trying again. We know it's going to be controversial and it's possible it won't stick. We really want the ability to be used at the right time, not just on cooldown. There has to be a wrong time to use it. In PvP, we want there to be a way to counter the druid, especially given that the built-in crowd control is gone. The other consideration is that we plan on getting a new model that looks more like an ancient and less like a treant, so moving slower might fit.

Source

#6 Fallenangel

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 12:09 PM

That quote / explanation by GC is really unclear. First off healing cds in general don't tend to be used whenever they're up - no one uses SM just because it's up. This is even more true for abilities that have a long cd in the first place and therefore are not likely to be used more than once or twice in per encounter (this is also a problem with imp ToL talent which seems particularly weak).
That said I'm not too concerned about the mobility issue. Druids are by far the most mobile healers and having instant-cast regrowth when ToL is up will certainly help with that as well.
As for ToL being the healing CD druids needed - jury is still out on that one, and the effects are probably still a work in progress. Druids mostly need a tank CD which is not granted by the existing implementation.

#7 Carebare

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 01:16 PM

That quote / explanation by GC is really unclear. First off healing cds in general don't tend to be used whenever they're up - no one uses SM just because it's up.


I think Swiftmend might be a poor example. If Swiftmend is up and any target can benefit from the heal, personally I use it as close to on cooldown as possible on the raid/tanks and leave NSHT as pretty much a tank/other encounter dependent person emergency heal. NS is a longer cooldown (similar to TOL) and therefore it's something that tends to be reserved. Mend's cooldown is so short that I feel like, for the most part, a lot of people don't use it nearly as much as they could/should. Some of that might also have to do with my ping. I can land swiftmend reliably in many cases with no overheal, but honestly even if it does overheal by a bit -- who cares? It's back up again fairly soon so it's not like I've lost anything by casting it. I can't say I've ever lost a raid member (tank or otherwise) because I had used Swiftmend incorrectly. I can definitely say that someone has died because NS wasn't up, but chances are that whenever I did cast it prior to that it more than likely prevented a death.

i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.


#8 Fallenangel

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 02:22 PM

Thing is that when SM is up it doesn't always become "this is the next spell I'm going to cast" - something which WG for instance is a lot of the time. Regardless I agree that NS is a better example but I covered it with the longer CD clause (not sure why I didn't mention is but I had it in mind).
Consider BQL, SM are much better saved for Pack of the Darkfallen, using it on CD just leads to it not being up when it's needed the most. Other examples I can think of are post-defile / pre-frostbeacon patching up, or ooze targets on putricide, and naturally there are many more.
SM usage is also be linked to the glyph which might be replaced by something new and exciting. If the cost for casting SM goes up than naturally it will be used less.
Regardless tacking a slow to a 5 minute CD ability so that "it's not used on CD but at the right moment" is just a senseless argument.

#9 Rijndael

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 09:17 PM

Blizzard is moving towards healer homogenization. As Ghostcrawler said, they are trying to walk a fine between keeping class identity distinct, and having raids be called because wrong healer classes are online. Right now healers are not homogenized enough -- paladins are too good on tanks and not good enough on raid, disc are too good on LK, druids are not good enough on LK, etc.

It seems pretty clear to me that Nature's Bounty + Efflorescence is broken and will change in some way. What's interesting though, is what the designer intent is.

I think the designers are intending to nerf Rejuv and boost Regrowth so Rejuv will only be worth casting when you move, and Regrowth will be cast when you stand still. This accomplishes a few things:

(a) Diversifies the spells druids actually will use

(B) Forces druids to stand still more. This may seem bad, but Blizzard has been pretty consistent in making the movement/burst/cooldown tradeoff. In other words, a healing spell always has one of three disadvantages: it either forces you to stand still, or it heals over time, or has a cooldown. In encouraging druids to use a cast time spell, Blizzard is freeing themselves to buff druid burst, which is what we need to be a more well rounded healer. I suspect druids in Cata will be more like priests -- good when forced to move but optimal when standing still.

© Make druids think about where they cast, rather than spam. This is the intent behind Nature's Bounty interaction with Regrowth, and I think this idea is sound as long as they "smooth" it, and just give a bonus that scales with lower target hp.

#10 Needforcreed

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 10:48 AM

In terms of how we heal it won't be extremely different from now (assuming you've already bound keys other than RJ/WG). You'll see a larger spread in heal type, but rejuvenation will likely still account for 50%ish of your healing done. Regrowth will definitely be used more, possibly in conjunction with the glyph if you'll be spamming it on the tank and using the HL-glyph type dividends of Efflorescence. Those who found Swiftmend glyph irreplaceable in WOTLK will still rely on it as heavily. It seems like there is still work to go on ToL, so I'll hold off on that talent for now. It definitely has potential, I'm just not entirely hooked on 3/7 of the affected spells being offensive. I'd have rather seen Nourish, Swiftmend, and Rejuvenation in there (not that Rejuvenation needs much buffing, but if it remains my most used spell I think it's reasonable that ToL affects it).


Hard to make predictions without knowing the actual mana v healing numbers of the various spells, but I doubt Blizz will let Rejuve remain this important:

1. As far as how Rejuve is affected by the new talent tree, then relative to other heals I see a couple of buffs (Blessing of the Grove, GOTEM), a specific nerf (Revitalize), and a bunch of talents where either other heals are nerfed less e.g. the ToL/ImpToL changes, or other heals are buffed and Rejuve is not e.g. Regrowth now gives as big a Swiftmend as Rejuve does and can produce Efflorescence, it and Lifebloom can both return mana, Nourish renews Lifebloom and reduces Swiftmend cooldown, etc. Overall, I have no doubt that other heals have become much more attractive than they were.

2. Against that, is the fact that if raid members are going to spend less time at full health or near death, as Blizz states is the intention, then HoT ticks won't overheal as much. With tree overheal running at 60-70% last time I looked, it would only take a small decrease in overhealing to produce a big increase in effective healing (and probably means that Cataclysm gives druids a big start on other healers from the get go).

3. Wrath buffed Rejuve early, and kept buffing it (to the point that I fell asleep, but that's another story). When Blizz's opening shot in Cataclysm is to buff other heals and not Rejuve, I think we can assume that they want us to change playstyles (or at least that other playstyles will be situationally more appropriate). If 3.9/4.0 doesn't do that, they will buff other heals some more till the argument is made.

A separate question about Efflorescence: will that be a buff on the target who received the Regrowth (meaning: it will move with him, like the herbalism healing talent does; it can be dispelled; could it even be affected by his own +heal??), or an effect centred on the ground where he was standing when he received the Regrowth crit? If the latter, wouldn't a second Efflorescence within 7 seconds of the first, be additive, rather than merely renewing the first? i.e. will we become quasi-pally Regrowth spammers so that the raid is awash with multiple Efflorescence procs?

#11 Fallenangel

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 11:20 AM

Hard to make predictions without knowing the actual mana v healing numbers of the various spells, but I doubt Blizz will let Rejuve remain this important:

1. As far as how Rejuve is affected by the new talent tree, then relative to other heals I see a couple of buffs (Blessing of the Grove, GOTEM), a specific nerf (Revitalize), and a bunch of talents where either other heals are nerfed less e.g. the ToL/ImpToL changes, or other heals are buffed and Rejuve is not e.g. Regrowth now gives as big a Swiftmend as Rejuve does and can produce Efflorescence, it and Lifebloom can both return mana, Nourish renews Lifebloom and reduces Swiftmend cooldown, etc. Overall, I have no doubt that other heals have become much more attractive than they were.

2. Against that, is the fact that if raid members are going to spend less time at full health or near death, as Blizz states is the intention, then HoT ticks won't overheal as much. With tree overheal running at 60-70% last time I looked, it would only take a small decrease in overhealing to produce a big increase in effective healing (and probably means that Cataclysm gives druids a big start on other healers from the get go).

3. Wrath buffed Rejuve early, and kept buffing it (to the point that I fell asleep, but that's another story). When Blizz's opening shot in Cataclysm is to buff other heals and not Rejuve, I think we can assume that they want us to change playstyles (or at least that other playstyles will be situationally more appropriate). If 3.9/4.0 doesn't do that, they will buff other heals some more till the argument is made.

A separate question about Efflorescence: will that be a buff on the target who received the Regrowth (meaning: it will move with him, like the herbalism healing talent does; it can be dispelled; could it even be affected by his own +heal??), or an effect centred on the ground where he was standing when he received the Regrowth crit? If the latter, wouldn't a second Efflorescence within 7 seconds of the first, be additive, rather than merely renewing the first? i.e. will we become quasi-pally Regrowth spammers so that the raid is awash with multiple Efflorescence procs?


Efflorescence is quite unreliable barring healing targets on HP levels that don't exist. The mana gain from revitalize is capped so that any additional proccing effect after the 1st has little to contribute, especially seeing how LB ticks 3 times as often as regrowth. Rejuv and LB are not even competing heals. OTOH, the rejuv buff, GotEM, is a major buff to the spell and will prompt its usage greatly.
I do hope regrowth will be viable much like it was in SWP-era, and the problem really is with rejuv's combination of high duration (went from 12 to 18s in WotlK while regrowth went from 21 to 27) and cheap cost. Saying that the want us to use more healing spells is nice and all but words are cheap, and just saying so without actually providing an incentive won't really pan out.

Re:healer homogenization, that exact notion was a healine for the WotlK changes. We got our own flash heal, and other healers got some heals to flesh out their toolboxes. However that goal failed badly for WotLK, and the niches are carved out deep right now. Whether Blizzard is truly ready to make healers more similar remains to be seen.

#12 Needforcreed

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 12:18 PM

Efflorescence is quite unreliable barring healing targets on HP levels that don't exist.


Not sure what you mean by this?

The mana gain from revitalize is capped so that any additional proccing effect after the 1st has little to contribute, especially seeing how LB ticks 3 times as often as regrowth.


Agreed.

OTOH, the rejuv buff, GotEM, is a major buff to the spell and will prompt its usage greatly.


Yes, but it replaces tier bonuses of similar worth, doesn't it? I don't know what Blizz has in mind for Cata tier bonuses.

Saying that the want us to use more healing spells is nice and all but words are cheap, and just saying so without actually providing an incentive won't really pan out.



I'm not pretending I can read Ghostcrawler's mind. But on the face of it the talent tree changes make non-Rejuve heals relatively more attractive. All I'm saying is that "the trend was Rejuve's friend" in Wrath, and now there is evidence that the tide has turned. Whether that is a false alarm, or whether in a year's time the pendulum will have swung heavily towards some other heal style, I can't say. But we haven't always been dedicated raid healers.

#13 Hamlet

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 06:03 PM

I wouldn't say we've seen anything too specific to support the idea that our spell usage will be serious overhauled. But then, I'm not sure it needs to be. If LB is bumped up enough to be decent, it's a nice spell to keep on a tank. RG can be made a bit stronger to compete with Rejuv when there's direct healing to be done (or Nourish, but it would be would be easier to pull off with RG). WG I'm not convinced will be any different from what we have now (longer cooldown of like 10s yes, but no different in function). We cast all these spells a little, (i.e. a little more than we do now), and Rejuv is still the workhorse. It would take quite significant spell changes to change that.

#14 Feya

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 07:18 PM

I too am having a difficult time wrapping my head around these supposed healing changes. So from what i've put together; It seems as if they want raid health across the board to look like a war had just ended and the typical raiders health to be around the 40% mark. Tanks could be higher, due to being the focus of a bosses wrath. If this is to be accomplished they'd certainly have to increase the value of stamina (or increase the amount of stamina which they've stated to be doing). At the same time, our mana pools would have to remain stagnant or shrink (or followed with minor adjustments to spell cost).

By doing all this, it seems certainly plausable that they are making strides for healers to have time to chose which spell to cast in which situation. Yet despite this, it also seems as if most of the healing classes are going to rely on go-to spells we already use. I also join Hamlet in wondering what change to Rejuv (because I certainly haven't seen one announced yet) will make it a spell we won't continue to rely on.

Finally, the changes to the other spells certainly do seem useful in terms of helping us attain semi-reasonable levels of tank healing capabilities. I am wondering as to the effectiveness of Efflorescence in a raiding situation, but it seems very similar to Paladin Holy Light splash which continues to be incredibly useful for them in throughput.

On another note, has anyone read or heard of changes to Judgement of Light? In a world where healing spells are at a premium in terms of cost, a spell like JoL could seriously give healers significant levels of envy due to its healing output....

#15 Hamlet

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 07:36 PM

I think Efflorescence is looking to be both useful and fun; the bigger issue is making Regrowth strong and usable enough to carry it. We saw in 3.3 that even when Regrowth is given comparable numerical power to Rejuv, it has trouble finding a use.

#16 Fallenangel

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 08:41 PM

Regarding raid HP levels, it seems like their goal just can't be obtained.
If the raid hovers around 40% (just taking the number tossed here), what exactly got it to 40%? Why isn't it bringing them lower? If someone at 40% is at constant danger of dying, then obviously you can't have the entire raid at that HP level or you will lose people. If it ticked down slowly to 40%, then it means that passive heals (and hots) are extremely weak.
Keeping (nearly) constant HP level that isn't 100% on a raid just doesn't work, barring some exotic mechanics like Leeching Swarm.

#17 Rijndael

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 09:00 PM

Regarding raid HP levels, it seems like their goal just can't be obtained.
If the raid hovers around 40% (just taking the number tossed here), what exactly got it to 40%? Why isn't it bringing them lower? If someone at 40% is at constant danger of dying, then obviously you can't have the entire raid at that HP level or you will lose people. If it ticked down slowly to 40%, then it means that passive heals (and hots) are extremely weak.
Keeping (nearly) constant HP level that isn't 100% on a raid just doesn't work, barring some exotic mechanics like Leeching Swarm.


I guess if we are to take Blizzard seriously, we have to believe that incoming DPS on raid will be balanced in such a way that it outpaces normal healer HPS, but is outpaced by "execute" healer HPS (e.g. HPS boosted by talents like Efflorescence+Nature's Bounty).

That will cause raid hp to behave as you say.

#18 Norfair

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 06:36 PM

I think Efflorescence is looking to be both useful and fun; the bigger issue is making Regrowth strong and usable enough to carry it. We saw in 3.3 that even when Regrowth is given comparable numerical power to Rejuv, it has trouble finding a use.


From what I understand they will make Regrowth a 1.5 sec cast, as it will be the new 'flash heal'. I could definitely see myself using a 1.5 sec emergency heal (1 sec with enough haste) which leaves a HoT + AoE-heal on the ground in situations where many people are low, as opposed to how Nourish is now. I also wonder if Efflorescence will stack, although I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't.

#19 Mavara

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 09:55 PM

The ToL cooldown combating the raid damage would seem like the most likely solution, but have we forgotten of the significant damage increases the cooldown provides? I was hoping our damage could actually provide a 'Touch of Nightmare'-esque debuff when used, so that our cooldown could be used to either maintain this 40% raidwide health pool, or provide some way of countering the H Festergut 25 equivalent in Cataclysm, whichever might be needed. Afterall, we are expected to be capable tank healers in the next expansion, but we have nothing to literally prevent a death.

#20 Hamlet

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 03:16 AM

I guess if we are to take Blizzard seriously, we have to believe that incoming DPS on raid will be balanced in such a way that it outpaces normal healer HPS, but is outpaced by "execute" healer HPS (e.g. HPS boosted by talents like Efflorescence+Nature's Bounty).

That will cause raid hp to behave as you say.


Or even more importantly, by Deep Healing.

Overall though you guys are taking this too literally, as far as the raid always being at 40%. The more salient point has always been that far more people on average will be anywhere other than 100% or 0 at all times. It does the issue that HoT's will probably overheal for a lot less than they do now, so they probably won't have nearly as much raw output as they currently do.




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