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Retadin use in raids?


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#1 Sarcy

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 05:08 AM

Hello , New to teh forums so hello all :)

I was wondering if any have a indication of how useful a DPSadin is with in a 25 man raid

the maths are beyound me and my understanding of what benfits each class is granted by him been there. IE X dmg by rogue and mage and so on. Also healing done by seals and mana back Plus the possibel DPS of teh paladin its self with raid buffs and pots

If some one could help with the theory or how pratical one could be. It would be a great help as then i can see if the benfits outweigh a pure dps class due to refrsh of judges and 3% crit chance given to raid

a Prime example would be Gruul what benfits would be done

#2 Jager

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 05:20 AM

I've heard that a ret cycle against Patchwerk is pretty awesome.

#3 Ragnor

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 05:22 AM

While I enjoy ret spec and over time I alternative between holy and ret spec's... ret has marginal utility as dedicated dps in raids.

A list of issues are:
1: Lack of passive threat reduction (other than salvation)
2 Melee range with probably a much lower dodge rate than warriors/rogues (hello cleave)
3: Misplacement of dps talents like holy strength and precision in the talent trees
4: Requires too many stats to be effective eg:
Crit/Agi, Str/Ap, +Hit, Stm, Int, +dmg, +spell hit
5: Poor itemization to achieve #4 (item budget wasted on +spirit or mana/5sec on dps gear QQ)
6: Too few abilities with too long cooldowns (Crusader strike 10sec, Judgement of Command 8sec, Consercrate 8sec).

In my opinion ret is a 1v1/duel, solo grinding, solo pvp, pug pvp spec. Ret simply doesn't do enough sustained pve dps to justify a spot full time dps.

Now ret spec but in healing gear, mostly healing.. occasionally using crusader strike to refresh all judgements.. well that's a different story somewhat... However it still falls over in that if cs misses or is dodged all the judgements will fall off and not be refreshed.

Bottom line: 20/0/41 you can still heal fine in raids and have alot of fun solo/pug/pvp.

PS: A true pve raid dps paladin would have to spec at least 8 prot for precision and 41 ret (probably more like 44 ret) leaving you pretty gimp for healing.

#4 mek

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 05:29 AM

I've heard that a ret cycle against Patchwerk is pretty awesome.


I think this is a valid topic; shadow priests, feral druids, and enhancement shamans are pretty much raid staples now, all three warrior trees are raid viable, and moonkins and ele shamans are even becoming less than a joke. To what extent have ret paladins gained acceptance? My guild personally still views anything other than a holy paladin less than optimal, but 25 man raiding has barely begun, and keeping 3+ judgements up permanently in that sort of raid environment would be way more powerful than anything they're capable of in a 10man. However, that sort of utility is very difficult to measure - keeping JoW, JoL and imp crusader up all fight would definitely be handy.

Anyone used ret paladins in Gruul's or even SS?

#5 Quigon

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 05:55 AM

Jager almost turned this thread to gold.

#6 Sebudai

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 06:11 AM

We've been trying a Ret paladin out just to see. I don't really have an opinion either way yet, but I'll just say the point of a Ret paladin to me is not their personal dps, it's Improved Blessing of Might, Improved Sanctity Aura, Sanctified Crusader and the ability to keep each paladins Judgement going by themselves for the whole fight via Crusader Strike.

#7 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 07:36 AM

I think this is a valid topic; shadow priests, feral druids, and enhancement shamans are pretty much raid staples now, all three warrior trees are raid viable, and moonkins and ele shamans are even becoming less than a joke.

Ragnor pretty well rattled off the list of reasons why Ret just isn't a very good raid spec unless you are sorely lacking in DPS classes. Beyond Crusader Strike's questionable usefulness (we'll know better once we see extended 25 man dungeons) and 3% raid crit the major selling point of the tree is Improved Sanctity Aura, which is shallow enough that a Holy build can pick it up without major sacrifice. The gear disparity from both prot and holy builds is pretty killer and the returns on the tree aren't nearly as good as Shamans in terms of both personal and party damage for it to be a truly worthwhile raiding build, imo.

#8 Edgewalker

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 08:46 AM

Imp. Sanctity Aura, Imp. Blessing of Might, CS (Judgement Refreshment for all Paladin judgements), and Sanctified Crusader are the "Raid" friendly buffs a Retribution paladin would bring. The 10 second CD on Crusader Strike makes the judgement refreshment argument a hard point to push, as is Imp. Sanctity Aura and Imp. Blessing of Might which can be picked up easily from another paladin without losing Prot/Holy valuable talents.
Spot would be better used on a shadow priest or enhancement shaman 99% of the time.

#9 levk

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 02:51 PM

We've been trying a Ret paladin out just to see. I don't really have an opinion either way yet, but I'll just say the point of a Ret paladin to me is not their personal dps, it's Improved Blessing of Might, Improved Sanctity Aura, Sanctified Crusader and the ability to keep each paladins Judgement going by themselves for the whole fight via Crusader Strike.


This made sense in a 40 man raid. It definately doesn't in 10 and pretty sketchy in 25. All this stuff is child's play compared to how game-changing a shadowpriest is in my group.

e:

Oh, and ofcourse, the cycle is indeed delicious.

#10 Gid

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 03:03 PM

I have been able to see a use for several hybrid specs on raids (notably shadow priests) but there are two that stick out as being difficult to justify:

- Retribution Paladin
- Moonkin Druid

Since this thread talks specifically about the Retribution Paladin I would also add that it has been my experience that if we're trying to justify the danger of putting someone in melee (rather than doing DPS more safely at range) then we want them to put out a lot of DPS. At the moment a ret paladin simply doesn't do that.

#11 Shakkha

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 03:50 PM

Since this thread talks specifically about the Retribution Paladin I would also add that it has been my experience that if we're trying to justify the danger of putting someone in melee (rather than doing DPS more safely at range) then we want them to put out a lot of DPS. At the moment a ret paladin simply doesn't do that.

Well you can't just take into account the dps of the Retadin himself to decide if he's worth the spot or not. And theorically the 'danger' of being in melee range should get lowered in the near future according to the devs (frontal cleaves, etc.).

If you want to rationally study the pro/cons of having a Retadin, you need to consider what is your raid setup, how much dps does having Sanctified Crusader up on your target add to your raid, how much dps in the long term does JoW add to your raid, through mana regen, and the added benefit of the 6% healing bonus on your Main tank.

Add to this the little extra heals of JoLight for your melees and you can have an approximative idea on what a Retribution Paladin adds to your raid.

There are no easy answer to the question of having a retribution paladin or not in your raid, it really depends too much on your raid setup, the encounter you're facing etc. If your guild roster is on the healer heavy side, it would probably benefit you more to have one of the Paladins Retribution, than just another Holy Paladin.

What is clear in my opinion, is that this spec not adapted to a 10man situation, however it might become more valuable in the near future when guilds will be only doing 25man raids all the time.

#12 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 03:52 PM

The only thing you listed in that post that is not doable by a Paladin with 35 points in Holy is 3% raid crit, Shakkha. That is the problem with a Ret paladin. There is no single unique ability that they bring to the table like Vampiric Embrace or Unleashed Rage, all they get to do is marginally improve something that affects their own class and add a token amount of crit for the raid while crippling their healing ability. If they have no redeeming DPS to speak of there's not much reason for them to be in the raid.

#13 Amera

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 04:40 PM

Well, that, and the fact that you don't even have to be meleeing the mob to provide those benefits to the raid. You can wear healing gear just fine and still give Sanc Aura and judge santified crusader on a mob.

They seem to have really gotten it right with Enhancement shaman. Good DPS, good utility, a buff that synergizes when they are actually meleeing their target. I'm hoping they figure out a way to impliment this with the Ret tree, but as of yet it isn't there.

#14 levk

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 04:48 PM

What is clear in my opinion, is that this spec not adapted to a 10man situation, however it might become more valuable in the near future when guilds will be only doing 25man raids all the time.


Granted I'm hardly the person to speak with authority on the issue of class balance in new 25 mans, but the way I see the 25 man encounters currently tuned, getting the absolute maximum out of a raid spot is vital at this point in the encounters I've seen, much more so than pre-TBC 40 mans. You just can't afford a spot for a minor gimmick 3% crit, especially as melee.

#15 Phantom

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 06:10 PM

Has anyone actually parsed the healing obtained from Judgement of Light? Granted, the Ret Paladin will be judging crusader, but they will (theoretically) be keeping up judgements of Light and Wisdom as well.

Just as a personal anecdote, I was tanking and my group was killing one of those fire giants near the end of arcatraz. We had a DW Fury warrior, and to ease the healing because of meteor, I judged light. He seemed pretty shocked at how often he got healed from it, and I had him check the log after the fight. He healed himself for nearly 1400 in the time it took us to down the giant. I can't remember how long the fight took, but it was just 1 trash mob and 1 melee dps person getting the benefit.

Imagine 4-10 melee people each getting healed for 1400 on each trash mob, in a world where cleaves are now easily avoidable with some skill. How about on Maiden of Virtue, to counter her consecrate? If there's only 10 in the raid, judging light might be better than crusader(or both if 2 pallies). He might toss out a few heals in between crusader strikes, but if he's got the gear, he's doing decent dps on his own in addition to healing half the raid. Judgement of light is essentially an AoE HoT.

With a 10 man, not everyone will get salv. And if the Ret pally casts it on himself, he just about matches the natural threat reduction from a Rogue (30% vs. 29%).

How valuable is a melee that can heal half the raid at the same time? And except for healers that aren't wanding the target, he's healing everyone. I'd be interested to see parses to see which heals for more: judgement of light, or a pally instead spamming healing spells.

#16 Vernichter

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 06:19 PM

Phantom, you are completely correct in saying that Judgement of Light can be a huge healing benefit to melee. Couple that with shadowpriests in the caster groups and the bulk of a raid would have steady incidental healing. However, that still doesn't change the issue of opporunity cost with a ret pali whacking a mob versus another pali healing. A holy pali can swing enough to keep judgement of light up while still primarily healing. In theory, Crusader Strike does help because it allows other palis to stay out of melee range and not worry about refreshing their judgements, but it just doesn't provide the same incentive as the analogous VE, VT, and unleashed rage.

#17 levk

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 06:21 PM

JoL is fixed 40% proc, people who do a lot of attacks will get healed for a lot - that's fury warriors, rogues and enh shamans. MS warriors won't see much for example.

e: besides, you don't need a ret pally doing JoL. Ofcourse running in and out of melee every 20 seconds isn't a way to do it, but if you have a pally tank, it sure is.

#18 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 06:24 PM

stuff

Again, there is nothing in this post that cannot be done by any paladin.

I'd be interested to see parses to see which heals for more: judgement of light, or a pally instead spamming healing spells.

The correct answer is the paladin that does both. It is not a requirement to spec Ret to be able to keep your own judgment up, and any encounter where a Ret paladin can stand in and DPS safely is an encounter where any paladin can stand in and whack away at a mob to keep a judgment up safely.

#19 levk

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 06:33 PM

The correct answer is the paladin that does both.


Improving my gameplay at this point is a constant battle with the global cooldown and better efficiency for moving when I have to move. Keeping a judgement up cuts deep in both of these things especially when you think of all the antimelee nature of a lot of the encounters and the fact that casting a channeling spell resets your autoattack timer. So I either use up a global cd every once in a while to seal up and judge or I stand there and wait for what seems like an eternity to swing to refresh judgement. And I might miss too, I miss a lot.

#20 Vinsent

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 06:42 PM

I agree with what has been said here, right now its about gear utility. If there was amazing ret gear out there they could most likely push the 700dps range which would definately start to justify a spot, however that gear does not exist.

None of their unique utility (+23 points in the tree), thus inacessable for holy or prot, is that huge a gain to justify the off spec.

I really wish that the numbers told me something diffrent, but I currently cant see a good reason to bring a ret paladin if you have another choice for the slot that is more optimal (another dps class if dpsing, another healing class if needed to heal, a feral druid or S. Priest if you need to do both (I kid I kid)).

Im not sure what should change, and I would like to see a ret paladin be truely useful as a raid slot. If raids were still 40 man I could see bringing one, but with a smaller raid cap I think there is all the more reason to bring the more min max classes or if you need another paladin have them be 38/0/23 if you really want improved scanity, and imp BoM.




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