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Retadin use in raids?


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#21 Phantom

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 06:58 PM

Again, there is nothing in this post that cannot be done by any paladin.

The correct answer is the paladin that does both. It is not a requirement to spec Ret to be able to keep your own judgment up, and any encounter where a Ret paladin can stand in and DPS safely is an encounter where any paladin can stand in and whack away at a mob to keep a judgment up safely.


The problem with this, and other people who say a paladin would be better in healing gear whacking the mob, is time and hit%. A paladin in healing gear means he does not have melee gear, including the +hit. He is going to miss a lot on 72+ trash and bosses, and he's going to lose healing time by trying to get a whack in.

He also loses time, both with the GCD and with moving, to keep that judgement up. It's going to fall off and/or someone will die, depending on what the paladin does. What is that holy paladin doing? Spot healing or healing the MT? If MT(which is the most common), he's spamming heals and can't exactly waste time with JoL or else the tank might die. If spot healing, he can judge, but then his mana pool sits there unused because JoL/VE are doing most of the work. Why not use it to do some damage?

Everyone has issues battling the GCD. It's even more stressful for a healer with cast times. Whenever I've healed in a raid, I usually don't have time to re-judge light, or someone will die. At the start of the fight, yeah. But that's exactly when you don't really need it just yet. A paladin trying to keep JoL up and play a meaningful healer means someone is going to die, and won't do as much healing as a holy paladin totally focused in using just FoL and HL.

Is a Retadin needed? No. Does he bring value equal to any other individual member? That's what we're trying to answer, and my feeling is yes. He's healing nearly the entire raid for minimal mana cost, upping raid dps, and doing his own decent dps.

The Holy/Ret paladin can't do this, because the judgement won't be maintained. In theory it seems like it'll work, but when the tank is taking 4-5k+ hits, I don't believe it's practical.

#22 Vernichter

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 07:03 PM

What if Crusader Strike did more than just refresh judgements; what if it also improved them? If Crusader Strike increased the effect of Judgement of Light, Judgement of Wisdom, and Judgement of the Crusader (just the holy damage portion) by 25%, would that make a ret paladin more enticing?

As mentioned elsewhere, the trouble with Ret paladins in raids is their opportunity cost relative to other paladins. In theory, Crusader Strike helps overcome this by refreshing other judgements, and it is certainly a useful benefit. However, the benefits of other hybrids in DPS roles (shadowpriests, ferals, and enhancement shamen) exceed the benefits of a paladin in a DPS role, so it generally makes more sense for the paladin to fill a healing slot. Sanctified Crusader would be great in a 40-man, but its more difficult to justify in a 25-man. However, if the synergy effect of Crusader Strike were boosted with more unique benefits, it might help justify the slot.

Another option would be for crusader strike to add a debuff like the following in addition to refreshing judgements:

Inquisition: Physical attacks against this target have a 5% chance of causing additional holy damage equal to 50% of the attack. This effect lasts 15 seconds.

#23 zeidrich

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 07:46 PM

Unless they find out some way to make Retribution Paladins a unique snowflake, I don't really see them having very much raid viability at all. Blizzard's already in a twist trying to nerf the burst dps potential of paladins. By reducing the burst potential, there's obviously going to be some reduction is sustained DPS, and paladin's sustained DPS is pretty crap to start with. So we get down to a matter of utility. What does a ret paladin bring to the table that a prot or holy paladin can not?

1: Sanctity Aura
2: Crusader Strike

Sanctity aura can be gotten with an almost complete holy or prot build. Crusader strike's viability is limited in that it requires the paladin to stay in melee range, and doesn't provide any extra utility, only additionally convenience and a bit of GCD time from other paladins.

I haven't been grouped with any well-geared ret paladins, so I don't know how their DPS actually is. I have grouped with one moderately geared one and I outdps'd him in defense gear tanking, the mage easily doubled him up and then some.

Considering that Blizzard intends for paladins to be Tank/Healers and are working to lower our DPS as it is, I don't see much viability for the "DPS" tree in raids in the near future. In fact I think the ret tree really doesn't fit the class very well at all.

#24 Cryect

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 08:04 PM

JoL is pretty worthless on most fights and paladins due to lacking HOTs might not realize this but Paladins are infamous for topping off players that have a HOT on them due to the great efficiency of FoL.

The only encounters where JoL makes a huge differences are encounters like Sapphiron or Loatheb. If you want to talk about a worthwhile Judgement its all about JoW which is always useful.

#25 Cathela

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 08:16 PM

I haven't been grouped with any well-geared ret paladins, so I don't know how their DPS actually is. I have grouped with one moderately geared one and I outdps'd him in defense gear tanking, the mage easily doubled him up and then some.

That doesn't mean much without a bit more context. A paladin tanking in a 5-man puts out a surprising amount of damage, and it can often be a challenge for any single-target dps to keep up with that. If you run 5-mans the way I do, a single-target dps that clocks in a 50% of a mage's damage is performing very well.
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#26 zeidrich

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 08:25 PM

That doesn't mean much without a bit more context. A paladin tanking in a 5-man puts out a surprising amount of damage, and it can often be a challenge for any single-target dps to keep up with that. If you run 5-mans the way I do, a single-target dps that clocks in a 50% of a mage's damage is performing very well.


Fair enough.

I was maintaining about 230 DPS. He was shy of that.

Edit: I haven't been retribution since 2.0 Pre TBC but I know that retribution can pump out more damage than that. What I don't know is by how much. I would assume that using 93+ DPS weapons and TBC gear even an unpracticed ret paladin should have seen some increase. With nerfs to vengeance and CS since I've played ret, and decreasing of crit by new rating system I don't know how much Ret actually brings to the table in terms of DPS. I'm sure an awesome ret paladin with the right gear would surprise me. But I can't see them getting in the same range as even DPS warriors or rogues.

#27 Cathela

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 08:33 PM

Fair enough.

I was maintaining about 230 DPS. He was shy of that.

Ah, well that ain't good then.

Based on what I recall from pre-BC days, 400dps really shouldn't be hard to achieve.
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#28 Vinsent

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 09:22 PM

Ah, well that ain't good then.

Based on what I recall from pre-BC days, 400dps really shouldn't be hard to achieve.


I did some math in an eariler thread and yeah thats pretty terrible ret DPS, 400 should be pretty easy to keep up, 500+ if your fully kitted out and using AW when able etc. I can dig up the math if your intrested.

/edit here's the math, originallly posted here: http://elitistjerks....p?t=9336&page=3

This is with nerfed 10 sec CS, and 10% vengence.

Lets try some math, because honestly Im not sure myself.

CT Profile: http://ctprofiles.net/13568 (Note just something I threw together for math there are most likely other builds that are better.)

So rough numbers from that profile: 23% crit, 1000 attack power, weapon dmg range is 289-495, 156 spell damage, 4217 mana, 11 mana per 5.

So white damage:
That paladin deals (1000/14) = 71 * 3.8 (wep speed) = 269.8 + 362 (av wep damage) = 631*1.03(crusade) = 649.

Now Vegence on top of that, This is the major assumption on my math If we assume that between a 23% natural crit rate, + 3% crit from Scantified crusader + 15% crit on judgements the paladin has a large chance to have vengence up all the time. Luck will play a factor but for ease, Im going to say he does have it up all the time.

649 x 1.10 = 714 white damage per swing, so 714/3.8 = 187 white dps.

Now crits, so the paladin crits for double damage 23% of the time, so out of the 15 swings per minute he will take, on average, 3 will crit.

So, 714 x3 = 2142/60 = 35 crit dps.

So total white dps is 222 before mitigation, lets say the mob mitigates 20% of each attack (fully sundered this sounds about right), so 20% less dps, gives the paladin 177 white dps.

Now Seal of the Crusader, which does 70% holy damage 7 times per mintue.

so 714 *.7 = 500 (approx 499.8).
500 x 7 = 3498 damage over a minute, so per second is) /60 = 58

But it like the above, it crits about 25% of the time so 1 crit per minute. 500/60 = 8 more dps from crits.

Now Judgements 240 holy damage, judged 6 times a minute. = 1680 /60 = 28

Again critting but now with a 38% crit rate so of the 6 judgments 2 will crit. Also 8 more dps from crits.

36 *1.03(crusade) *1.10 (vengence) gives us 40 dps from judging.

Now both of these holy damage sorces are modified by scanity aura so.

58 + 8 + 40 = 106 damage from seal and judge *1.10(scanity) = 116 holy dps.

So total now we are up to 116 + 177 = 293 dps.

So far the paladin is basically doing nothing just sealing and judging, now add in CS

714+62(40% holy) *6 = 4656/60 = 77 dps.

Crits give us: 25 more dps. so CS adds = 102 dps.

So Just CS, Seal and Judge gives the paladin 396 dps.

(Note Im going to basically stop here since I hit 400dps, the paladins DPS would actuall be much higher with spell damage up and Seal of the Cursader Judged, also if they wanted to go all out they could add conceration spam in for another 50 or so dps.)

Sustainablity should not be a problem, they are only using 2705 mana per mintue, and they gain 11 mana per 5 from gear, and 33 mana per 5 from BoW, and lastly gain 686 over the minute from judging so...

They lose 2705 mana and gain 1214 mana, = 1491 mana lost every minute, so with no pots, and no outside healing, they can keep going for approx 3 minutes. If the are burning a pot every cooldown, or getting healed they should never run out of mana.

So long answer short, ret pallys with end game gear can easilly hit 450 dps without pots, or ou

#29 zeidrich

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 10:16 PM

It's easy to show math, especially when you don't have to account for many factors.

Typical sundered DR in my experience in Karazhan according to MobMitigation mod is about 30%.

You are also showing no resists, no glancing blows, no parry/dodge, you're assuming you're fighting level 70 mobs based on crit rates, and that Vengeance is always up, which is not true, especially when you consider your crit rate will be lowered by your opponent's higher level.

You're also assuming that all hits are happening as soon as cooldown is up which is not realistic.

Also the assumption is that you're in range for every hit, the mob doesn't knock away, or melee stun, fear, or any of the other myriad anti-melee abilities.

But the big things that stand out in my opinion are: You're not accounting for mob avoidance, you're assuming crit rate for an equal level monster, you're assuming vengeance constantly up, you're assuming all abilities are hit on cooldown. You're assuming no resists on judgements without any spell hit gear.

These IMHO are big things to miss, which is part of the reason I didn't really try and model it. In my experience, my own modeling has been far off the reality.

#30 Sebudai

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 10:45 PM

Even just ignoring all of those factors I don't think that's an acceptable level of dps. =p

#31 Cathela

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 10:55 PM

Even just ignoring all of those factors I don't think that's an acceptable level of dps. =p

Really really dumb question here, but what is considered an acceptable level of dps for a dps class in a raid?

I lead raids, but I'm always either tanking or healing. I keep SWStats up so I can see who's doing what fraction of the damage, and I can tell in a broad sense whether we have "enough" dps for a given encounter or not, but I've never looked at actual dps numbers.
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#32 Symbul

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 11:18 PM

After personal experience trying full Ret dpsing in 5mans it's just not enough dps. It's especially bad compared to Enh Shamans and Shadow Priests and it's not good compared to Moonkin, Battlekat or Ele Shaman either. The 3% crit is not a huge buff no matter how you spin it and unless we're talking 25man raids with 3+ Paladins it means giving up either JoL or JoW for it (usually Light). I just could not in good conscience justify a raid spot in KZ as Ret (not that I couldn't have gotten away with it).

But even disregarding that Paladins don't offer the group synergy that other hybrids do (vs a healing spec of the same class) they are just low on the dps scale. Admittedly I can't back it up with solid numbers from a fully raid buffed (BS, Totems, Sunder, TSA) Ret pal vs another dps class but from 5mans the dps is not enough. It's not like you can turn around and heal efficiently in melee gear if someone drops.

What needs to be done to make it viable? I'm not sure but old 15% Vengeance, a buff to un-stunned JoC and a shorter CS cooldown would help without going overboard. With new HP values and resilience once it becomes mainstream the HoJ burst people complained about in 2.0 just isn't there. Maybe the devs will realise that and throw us a bone on dps. It doesn't help that Ret needs a silly amount of stats to be effective. Just look at the PvP sets for it. Too much to add so they just skipped Resilience (and gave it lower Sta than other sets).

#33 Tuftears

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 11:21 PM

Really really dumb question here, but what is considered an acceptable level of dps for a dps class in a raid?


I've been running Recap and watching guild members' DPS on 5-man instances. On average it seems to run around 350-400-ish for people that I consider 'reliable raid DPS', but the hard-hitters can hit 500-600 or so. We had a shadow priest doing 500-ish or so while also healing the Black Morass run for a similiar amount, and that's a pretty long series of battles.

Our gear level is around T2/basic level 70 blues, so I think there's room for improvement. I'd want a ret-paladin to bring 450 DPS because of the melee AOE factor increasing the 'cost' of his raid spot, as it were.
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#34 Vinsent

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 11:41 PM

It's easy to show math, especially when you don't have to account for many factors.

Typical sundered DR in my experience in Karazhan according to MobMitigation mod is about 30%.

You are also showing no resists, no glancing blows, no parry/dodge, you're assuming you're fighting level 70 mobs based on crit rates, and that Vengeance is always up, which is not true, especially when you consider your crit rate will be lowered by your opponent's higher level.

You're also assuming that all hits are happening as soon as cooldown is up which is not realistic.

Also the assumption is that you're in range for every hit, the mob doesn't knock away, or melee stun, fear, or any of the other myriad anti-melee abilities.

But the big things that stand out in my opinion are: You're not accounting for mob avoidance, you're assuming crit rate for an equal level monster, you're assuming vengeance constantly up, you're assuming all abilities are hit on cooldown. You're assuming no resists on judgements without any spell hit gear.

These IMHO are big things to miss, which is part of the reason I didn't really try and model it. In my experience, my own modeling has been far off the reality.


Oh I 100% agree, this is really rough math. Its a calulation off gear I threw together in two seconds just grabbing stuff of wowhead, I didnt cacluate out spell damage, glancing, poping AW, misery on the mob, MS debuff on the mob, zero potions for the paladin, zero raid buffs, etc etc, etc, a lot of assumtions and Im sure my numbers a really off.

However, saying a ret paladin only pulled 250 or so DPS is really really low IMHO, I was just refuting that number. In my personal experience with a ret pally friend of mine who is not very well geared pulling down 400 or so DPS is pretty trival to do.

Im not sure what DPS range we should be looking for, but saying that we cant break 250 is just plain untrue, that thats waht I was responding to.

#35 Ngita

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 11:45 PM

Ragnor said it pretty well, among other things ret paladin itemisation has barely improved above level 60 epic pvp gear, judgements while theoritically quite good are problematic in practice especially with the long standing bug that melee hits do not refresh the judgement if it hasnt been refreshed in the first 10 seconds.

We used a Ret paladin in naxx pre-tbc, his dps was excellent but on the constant edge of pulling aggro even with salv. But even with a 6 second crusader strike judgements were dropping and the best numbers I could come up with said that he was deserved a place in a 40 man raid but not 25.

38/0/23 is a very nice holy build and provides most benefits of a retribution Paladin.

Perhaps in a few months a ret paladin with a good selection of arena and farmed T4 gear will be able to be a acceptable part of a raid doing exclusivily 25 man content but 10 man?

#36 Amera

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 12:16 AM

The solution, again, requires two major things:

1) An ability the paladin has to be actively engaged in melee to provide to the raid, and wearing Ret gear
2) An ability that is actually worth providing to the raid (better than 3% crit) versus alternatives


I've read some snippets about Warhammer having a system where, in order to heal, paladins have to melee in order to build up energy or some such. Is anyone more familiar with this model?

#37 Ragnor

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 12:59 AM

About paladin dps in 5 mans...

I've actually found pre 70 5 man dps ok. I was overseas for the first month or so of the xpac but at the moment I've level 68, I'm using the lvl 68 quest reward polearm, full 5/5 T2.5 and crit/ap/hit rings, necks and trinkets.

In successive Auchenai Crypts runs last night over the whole run my dps was 450-500 (measured using recap).

What I find hugely disturbing is my stats are hardly better than at 60 because there are no suitable upgrades. In 8 levels my AP has gone up by ~200-300, however my crit % has decreased due to crit rating scaling. My hit and +dmg are largely the same.

I keep seeing shaman and feral druid blue melee dps drops that are awesome but nothing but tanking or holy gear for paladins.

Next step is working towards crafting thunder and pvp'ing for arena gear. Thunder will be a significant upgrade but the arena gear is pretty meh.

#38 Chicken

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 01:02 AM

The solution, again, requires two major things:

1) An ability the paladin has to be actively engaged in melee to provide to the raid, and wearing Ret gear
2) An ability that is actually worth providing to the raid (better than 3% crit) versus alternatives


I've read some snippets about Warhammer having a system where, in order to heal, paladins have to melee in order to build up energy or some such. Is anyone more familiar with this model?

That could actually be interesting by making a talent along the lines of say, "Your melee [hits/crits] [have a N% chance to] [increase/reduce] the [effect/cost/cast time/whatever] of your next Y by N%, stacks up to X times.".

If we're going for the idea of the Warcraft III Paladin (Swinging it up at the front lines while supporting with heals), giving your melee hits a chance to reduce the cast time on your healing spells for example would be an idea. Of course, typical Ret itemization isn't much good for healing.

#39 Ngita

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 01:24 AM

What needs to be done to make it viable? I'm not sure but old 15% Vengeance, a buff to un-stunned JoC and a shorter CS cooldown would help without going overboard. With new HP values and resilience once it becomes mainstream the HoJ burst people complained about in 2.0 just isn't there. Maybe the devs will realise that and throw us a bone on dps. It doesn't help that Ret needs a silly amount of stats to be effective. Just look at the PvP sets for it. Too much to add so they just skipped Resilience (and gave it lower Sta than other sets).


Unfortunately this appears to be the official viewpoint

With that being said, we do feel that the Paladin is currently capable of producing too much burst damage and are investigating reasonable ways to make minor reductions for the future.

http://forums.worldo...geNo=2&sid=1#23

#40 Symbul

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 01:47 AM

Yeah. =/ It was nice when I crit 3 out of 4 on my HoJ nuke but it's not as if that's something I can reliably dish out. ~5% chance to do nice damage once a minute is not great. And it's not as if we're the top bursters or have meaningful debuffs to put on people. After the HoJ there isn't much going on without some help from the random number generator. Any half-aware healer is going to heal through whatever we put out easily unless he gets caught on half with our HoJ up. Well, at least I can heal.




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