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Retadin use in raids?


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#41 Keline

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 01:52 AM

I've read some snippets about Warhammer having a system where, in order to heal, paladins have to melee in order to build up energy or some such. Is anyone more familiar with this model?


woah, rage bar for paladins! Warriors would be up in arms and fury!

#42 Thelyna

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 01:56 AM

Retribution paladins need a buff to sustained DPS (or raid utility) if they're to ever be considered as worthy of a raid slot (other than as a pity invite).

I was lucky enough to pick up a Despair on our second R&J kill ... even with this (and a gear set aimed toward ret dps), I was routinely getting trounced by mages, locks, hunters, rogues and tanking feral druids (and probably shadow priests, too, but I didn't run with any of them before I packed it in and went back to holy), by which any and all of those were doing 30% more damage than I did (and in the first two cases, 50%-100% more damage depending on gear and ability/aggressiveness).

It seems to me to be fairly obvious that the dev team have their knickers in a twist about potential burst dps paladins *can* do (and yes, when all the planets out to Jupiter were aligned correctly, I could hit something for ~5-6k damage instantly and still have 5 seconds left on stun). The answer to this also seems fairly obvious to me ... Seal of Command is the prime cause of our streaky damage, so double or triple the proc rate and halve or third the damage done per proc.

However, it's still a thorny problem because then you have to balance having plate, heals, the best defensive group support tools and somehow fit reasonable DPS in there as well. I wonder if there's any way to introduce a talent, something like say Spirit of the Avenger, increases all damage done by 15% but disables healing/blessing (so yes, basically shadowform for paladins) in order to sacrifice group utility for individual DPS. Sanctified Crusader is a nice group buff, but as others have said you don't need to be DPSing to get the primary benefits of being a ret paladin, so you either need to add group buffs that revolve around being in melee or add enough raw DPS that ret paladins aren't lagging significantly behind (as-is, I can only beat anyone on DPS if they're either AFK or dead).


PS: Should I be happy or sad that even when I was full ret spec, I was outhealing priests in heroics with better mana conservation?

#43 xi0nic

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 04:05 AM

PS: Should I be happy or sad that even when I was full ret spec, I was outhealing priests in heroics with better mana conservation?


Please Thelyna, don't say things like that without pointing out that either a) you were rolling with some piss-terrible priests or 2)you have really really good healing gear, and up to Illumination in the holy tree. =D

I do agree with the rest of your post though. Paladins are capable of decent burst damage right now. The reality of it though, is that it requires some nice gear, and a really good spot of luck to boot. A string of crits sucks to see when you're on the receiving end, but let's be honest with each other here.

The other classes have stun/immobilize/root effects at their disposal. The other classes have the capability for huge burst damage, and in most cases, lots more than the Paladin can put out. Why pick on the Paladin? Is it the fact that a Paladin has some amazing utilities and defense mechanisms? So do other classes. You can look across the board and find defensive skills and abilities for each class. It's completely unfair to ask that this one single class in the game should not have the ability to deal respectable damage, if they spec/gear for it.

The classic example to me is the Shadow Priest. I know people hate to see this, but it's the straight truth. The priest is hands-down the best healing class in the game. Yet they are still given a talent tree and the gear to go along with it to make them one of the better damage classes out there. When a priest specs Shadow, he gives up a lot of the healing power he had when specced Holy. Why can't a Paladin have that same ability?

The obvious answer is the fact that he wears plate armor, and has blessings, and can heal really well. Priests have fear, mass dispel, heals(even in shadowform)... I don't see the problem here.

Please. Give the Paladins a chance, Blizzard. Everyone else gets to do damage, why can't we?

#44 Fiola

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 04:53 AM

...

The classic example to me is the Shadow Priest. I know people hate to see this, but it's the straight truth. The priest is hands-down the best healing class in the game. Yet they are still given a talent tree and the gear to go along with it to make them one of the better damage classes out there. When a priest specs Shadow, he gives up a lot of the healing power he had when specced Holy. Why can't a Paladin have that same ability?

The obvious answer is the fact that he wears plate armor, and has blessings, and can heal really well. Priests have fear, mass dispel, heals(even in shadowform)... I don't see the problem here.

Please. Give the Paladins a chance, Blizzard. Everyone else gets to do damage, why can't we?

The baseline paladin is a heal/tank hybrid. You have high durability, high survivability, and low-medium DPS.

The baseline priest is a heal/dps hybrid. You have low-medium durability, good survivability, good damage output.


If you want to improve the DPS of the former such that it is competitive in sheer damage output with the latter. . . that would require the talent trees to make a much larger difference than they do now - and would be difficult to balance.


Considering how Blizzard is trying to reign in paladin damage output ("we do feel that the Paladin is currently capable of producing too much burst damage" - Eyonix), I'd consider it futile to ask that the Ret paladin "earn his raid slot" by boosting his damage output. It's not feasible without greatly altering the baseline capabilities of the paladin. (it would essentially become a new class)


A more realistic approach is to look to add more raid utility to heavy Ret. Preferably without resorting to "Holy Vampiric Embrace" and "Retribution Form" (can't use heals, lawl!).

#45 Eej

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 04:57 AM

I've read some snippets about Warhammer having a system where, in order to heal, paladins have to melee in order to build up energy or some such. Is anyone more familiar with this model?


According to previews, Warrior-Priests will essentially charge up their spells (buffs and heals, presumably) by hitting people. Then again, you should realize that WAR is being designed such that every single class is a damage dealer, with some of them having abilities such as buffs/debuffs/heals. There is no primary healer class in WAR.

#46 Thelyna

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 05:24 AM

Please Thelyna, don't say things like that without pointing out that either a) you were rolling with some piss-terrible priests or 2)you have really really good healing gear, and up to Illumination in the holy tree. =D


I don't run groups with piss-terrible priests. :)

And no, I didn't even have Illumination (*or* Healing Light, I was either 11/0/50 or 10/0/51), I was basically chain-flashing (stopcasting macro, I can get my flash time down to about 1.6-1.7 seconds, but a burst of lag foobars that up) and letting the priest in the run cover anything else ... there wasn't much else to cover on trash (well-geared tank).

Anyhow, we're getting off point, and I certainly don't want to see our baseline healing abilities get nerfed so we can get DPS.

#47 Cathela

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 08:07 AM

The baseline paladin is a heal/tank hybrid. You have high durability, high survivability, and low-medium DPS.

The baseline priest is a heal/dps hybrid. You have low-medium durability, good survivability, good damage output.


If you want to improve the DPS of the former such that it is competitive in sheer damage output with the latter. . . that would require the talent trees to make a much larger difference than they do now - and would be difficult to balance.

This brings up something I think interesting.

The Retribution tree is the only one of a Paladin's three trees that doesn't enhance a basic strength of the class. Rather, it elevates a weak area (dps) from "poor" to "okay". And in a world of mini-max raiding, "okay" doesn't cut it.

Is there another talent tree for any class that tries to enhance a weak area of the class?
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#48 Fiola

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 08:28 AM

This brings up something I think interesting.

The Retribution tree is the only one of a Paladin's three trees that doesn't enhance a basic strength of the class. Rather, it elevates a weak area (dps) from "poor" to "okay". And in a world of mini-max raiding, "okay" doesn't cut it.

Is there another talent tree for any class that tries to enhance a weak area of the class?

Ret could be a utility tree. Kind of like pre-TBC Arcane for mages, or Disc for Priests, or Survival for Hunters. A tree that "focuses" on being well-rounded, rather than having maximized output or efficiency.


As a tree that makes the paladin into more of a "melee fighter", the Ret tree does a reasonable job - (adds controlled damage options, control with Repentence) but what use does a party or raid have for a "melee fighter" with low-medium DPS? (I'd like to think I'm useful as a 5th man - but the number of instance runs the past few weeks where I haven't been healer or tank is . . . close to zero)

#49 Plea

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 08:38 AM

According to previews, Warrior-Priests will essentially charge up their spells (buffs and heals, presumably) by hitting people. Then again, you should realize that WAR is being designed such that every single class is a damage dealer, with some of them having abilities such as buffs/debuffs/heals. There is no primary healer class in WAR.



And they seem to be proud of making fun of support classes in pvp. But then again, its a pvp game; I dont think it would be healthy to compare the 2.

#50 Amera

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 09:10 AM

According to previews, Warrior-Priests will essentially charge up their spells (buffs and heals, presumably) by hitting people. Then again, you should realize that WAR is being designed such that every single class is a damage dealer, with some of them having abilities such as buffs/debuffs/heals. There is no primary healer class in WAR.


Well, I seem to recall WoW once being marketed as having "no true support classes," but that obviously evolved quite differently.


Anyway, the game has some great ideas for making a support spec that isn't healing. Enhancement shaman, shadow priests (some healing), and whatnot. Really all they would have to do is invent something similar and you'd create a viable raiding tree.

This thread is mainly about raids, I know, but it would be a nice bonus of this ret change also gave Ret paladins an place in group PvP somehow. I mean as it stands, it's a great 1 on 1 spec, and a pretty good small battle spec, but by the time you have 5v5 I can't conceive of any use (besides repentance).

#51 Mearis

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 09:16 AM

Ret paladins offer two great advantages though over the other offspecs:
- They can make excellent healers with a 20/0/41 spec (20 holy, 41 ret) due to the placement of the healing talents in the holy tree.
- Their perks do not require them to wear a completely different gearset (imp sanc aura, cs).

This means that while a ret paladin doing melee DPS is a complete waste of a raid spot, a ret paladin who heals is probably the best suited healing offspec. We had a ret paladin main heal (with a shadowpriest) a heroic run, and it was perfectly smooth and he never had any mana issues - I doubt any other offspec would be able to pull that off.

#52 Spatula

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 10:29 AM

This brings up something I think interesting.

The Retribution tree is the only one of a Paladin's three trees that doesn't enhance a basic strength of the class. Rather, it elevates a weak area (dps) from "poor" to "okay". And in a world of mini-max raiding, "okay" doesn't cut it.

Is there another talent tree for any class that tries to enhance a weak area of the class?

The druid's balance tree comes to mind.

#53 Ragnor

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 10:06 PM

Shaman w/ elemental spec can too...

.. but yes a Paladin in a shadow priests group is simply nuts with the extra regen from spiritual attunement.

Pre xpac I've healed on every boss (upto 4h man) with a 20 holy spec but you have to remember health totals were smaller you could flash of light heal spam for most fights and it was pre downranking nerf. Rank 1 FoL / Rank 4 HL forever for big numbers.

It probably isn't going to cut it for many of the fights now where you have to use high rank holy lights to cover the hits being taken.

#54 Amera

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 10:15 PM

It probably isn't going to cut it for many of the fights now where you have to use high rank holy lights to cover the hits being taken.


The only time I feel I have "needed" more than 20 in Holy is for Heroics, typically because I have to main heal them. On 40 mans and 10 mans to this point, it has been mostly superfluous unless your group makeup is bad. And, of course, you need ~34 for PvP, where you need Light's Grace if you want to be a serious 5v5 healer.

#55 Sapp

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 08:26 PM

I consider myself a relatively dedicated Ret Paladin, and I DPS in karazhan. I persist in staying with Retribution despite its long-standing flaws, in the hope that I'll be vindicated by another fix that I only got a taste of during the beta of 2.0, when retribution was really silly overpowered.

I honestly don't think there's that much of a mechanics flaw standing between Ret and doing proper DPS; I have a terrible threat profile (the worst possible, really) so I have to be more careful on that front, but most of the time that doesn't really hurt me too much. We have good tanks. Command scales at a good rate with gear, as well. Which is the problem.

My damage is usually fairly OK; #3-#4 normally in Karazhan and often higher on bosses, though I think I make a much higher effort in terms of consumables than others do oftentimes, probably since I have more to prove. I also know for certain that a Feral or Enhance making as much of an effort for their specialty as I put into Ret would dominate the meters by a colossal margin.

I think a few improvements could be made for the Crusader Strike/judgement interaction, either cutting 1-2 seconds off the CS cooldown or extending the base length of judgements by a few seconds to allow a second chance to reset a judgement that is being pinned up; one chance just isn't enough, most of the time. I also think Sanctified Crusader could perhaps use being a bit stronger, mayhap by extending it to a 5pt talent; Ferals and Enhance shamans have obvious and powerful benefits, between bolstered totems and Unleashed Rage (and Windfury in general) for shamans, and LoTP and the Mangle debuff (and an extra full tank when needed) for ferals. My benefits just seem much more marginal in comparison. I provide 3% crit for the raid (when an improved Grace/wrath or a LOTP provides more than that to everone that actually needs it), a second blessing, and an Imp. LoH from someone who can easily afford to sacrifice his mana on demand, unlike the main healer holy Paladin; it's nice, but I'm not sure it's enough to be a real draw when Holy is what it is.

The biggest flaw, to my eyes, is a lack of appropriate gear. The problem is that I think blizzard believes that a good "ret" set is what I dub the "Blood Knight" set, Lawbringer armor pieces recolored to red and shades of purple. This includes items like:
Head: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27505 (Ruby Helm of the Just)
Shoulder: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27844 (Pauldrons of Swift Retribution)
Chest: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28337 (Breastplate of Righteous Fury)
Belt: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27755 (Girdle of Gallantry)
Legs: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27893 (Ornate Leggings of the Venerated)
Boots: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27884 (Ornate Boots of the Sanctified)
Bracers: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27447 (Bracers of Just Rewards)
Gloves: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27798 (Gauntlets of Vindication)

This set is very very heavy on sta/int/str/spellpower, but rather lightweight when it comes to crit and so on, which are very important. It's just not optimal for doing damage as ret... honestly, I'm not entirely sure what it is optimal for, considering how many of the truly worthwhile pieces of it are sequestered in heroics. The only heroic element of it I've managed to acquire so far is the Breastplate, which is one of the less impressive pieces. Justicar Battlegear is well designed, but beyond those five items there is simply nothing to fill in the remainder. I've begun picking up the unwanted hunter loot in Kara by necessity, and mixing it with various purple PvP items. I'll get Justicar Gloves when we see champion drop, and probably the second or third helmet, and roughly similar priority if Gruul and Magtheridon are retuned such that they can be done without crazy consumables... but for all my other gear slots? There's just nowhere to go, really.

I usually have to force my way into raids a bit, by force of personality and by providing food consumables amongst other things around happily. My raid leader is fairly accomodating, but I am well aware that what he gets from me isn't much; an extra Imp. LoH, a second blessing, medium-ok single-target damage, and a decent and competent but highly eccentric player. Emphasis on highly eccentric.

I'm levelling a resto shaman to provide some versatility. I'm a little worried that once I get it to 70, I'll really never raid on my Paladin again.

It's just... insulting, really, that druids can happily spec Feral without being reviled, and Shamans are free to spec Elemental or Enhance and still be perfectly useful in raids, where I as a Paladin have to face the exact same bias I always did back at 60. Even Balance druids are better off than I am as Ret, in terms of popular perception. Paladins have to fight heavy bias any time they spec something other than Holy, simply because Holy is too amazingly strong for the good of the class.

It was the same story back at 60 when I was given our guild's Sulfuras. At least now there's the opportunity to prove that I'm worthwhile as what I choose to do, rather than it being obvious that I am just being humored. In some ways, that makes it worse...

Edit: in terms of DPS, I generally put up ~400 when solo and left alone to my own devices, but that usually includes a Mongoose or Major Agility and an Adamantine Weightstone, which I generally use as a matter of course. With a battleshout and LOTP on a raid mob that number climbs a good bit, since Glancing attacks still proc Commands, especially since I use full consumables on bosses by my own preference. If I get the opportunity I'll watch DPSes a bit closer on Aran saturday, if I get in. I tend to watch meters more than DPS, usually; I got #1 a few weeks ago on entrance --> moroes --> maiden --> opera, but fair's fair, I used a flask. At least our performance isn't so far behind that a 400 AP bump over everyone else isn't enough to overcome.

#56 Navaash

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 08:31 PM

I would like to express my astonishment that nobody's attempted to slip in the word "retardin" in a non-ironic manner with the thread being alive this long.

Carry on.

#57 Masq

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 08:50 PM

My damage is usually fairly OK; #3-#4 normally in Karazhan


I've offered to my guild the chance to entertain the idea of a retadin in raids, however things like this just make me go....

I'm going to make a small assumption here, but our guild runs with 2 tanks, and 4 healers. So, if you're top 3-4 DPS that means you're basically last.

I think that Blizzard is trying to tune paladin damage to be on the lower end, simply because they can go invulnerable. That is a very, very powerful ability. If paladins were capable of putting out damage that elemental shaman or feral druids could, it would vastly unbalance arena PvP.

Not to mention the damned paladins that are abusing the "Avenging Wrath + Divine Shield" bug in the arena. /shakes fist

#58 goss

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 08:56 PM

Eh, I'm not really overly concerned about Ret use in raid (maybe I'm just having too much fun with the other trees), but I disagree. You can have balanced PvE damage output without overbalancing PvP. Combat rogues and fury warriors are 2 PvE damage kings that come to mind that are actually (relatively) weak in PvP. If Ret paladins had higher consistent damage, without increasing their burst signficantly (buff SoR?), I don't see that has particularly unbalancing.

#59 Sapp

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 09:08 PM

I'm going to make a small assumption here, but our guild runs with 2 tanks, and 4 healers. So, if you're top 3-4 DPS that means you're basically last.

We use two-three primary healers (often excellent holy paladin + excellent holy priest + offspec that is healing), 1 pure Prot warrior tank, and one DPS/tank (often a feral, who was often #1/#2 before the bear nerf and hasn't been raiding since the nerf. It could also be a 30/31 prot/fury warrior or one of a number of more hybrid ferals. We have a lot of druids, a number of whom are crit immune when tanking.). We're often very heavy on offspec hybrids, so if healing gets desperate one of us can role shift. Most of the time 2.5 healers is more than enough, however.

Third means firmly in the middle of the pack. Which is lower than it should be considering the effort expressed, but it isn't terrible. Think of it as 12'th in a 40man, if you want to sort your thoughts better.

Fourth (or lower) means we're on one of those melee discouraging fights and the melee is suffering, or the druid has Swiftmend instead of lotp or Commanding Shout is being used, and anyone dependent on melee range or AP is suffering. Generally, under normal conditions my performance will roughly match our partial cryptstalker hunter, and our position will trade depending on who has more other duties to perform in a given fight (usually him).

We generally are fairly light on melee, in our raids. Melee buffs often have a low-ish priority in group composition.

#60 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 09:17 PM

Combat rogues and fury warriors are 2 PvE damage kings that come to mind that are actually (relatively) weak in PvP.

So are enhancement shamans. The common denominator of all 3 classes is dual wield: fast, small attacks that add up to a mountain of damage. Without giving Paladins dual wield (which will never, ever happen) I'm not really sure how you'd improve their PVE DPS without also improving their PVP DPS since the entire Ret tree is geared toward using a two-handed weapon. Taking a second look at Seal of the Crusader or a permanent haste effect ala the hunter BM tree might be a possibility.




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