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Cataclysm Balance Theorycraft and Spreadsheet Thread


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#21 Hamlet

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 03:22 AM

I'm getting 88/tick for MF but yeah, 18%. I'm not going to sweat all the +/- 1's for base damage since it will all be updated for 85 and working out the rounding is annoying. I'll put an updated sheet in the OP presently.

#22 lissanna

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 09:30 PM

It is possible that haste scaling is broken on Beta (it really wouldn't surprise me). I'll bug report it in-game. I counted ticks a couple times, and nothing was increasing my number of DOT ticks, regardless of how much haste I stacked (I have more haste in my resto gear than my moonkin set, so combining the two, it's possible to boost haste #'s pretty high). The ticks are critting appropriately, but I'm posting non-crit numbers, since they are easier to work with.

For moonfire testing, I let WoC fall off before I cast it again.

#23 Hamlet

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 09:31 PM

It is possible that haste scaling is broken on Beta (it really wouldn't surprise me). I'll bug report it in-game. I counted ticks a couple times, and nothing was increasing my number of DOT ticks, regardless of how much haste I stacked (I have more haste in my resto gear than my moonkin set, so combining the two, it's possible to boost haste #'s pretty high). The ticks are critting appropriately, but I'm posting non-crit numbers, since they are easier to work with.


Was the duration of the DoT/HoT changing with haste?

#24 lissanna

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 09:36 PM

Was the duration of the DoT/HoT changing with haste?


Sometimes, the duration is a second longer than the tooltip says, but it never gets shorter, and we aren't getting any more ticks, as far as I've been able to tell. Something seems buggy with haste scaling. I'll keep testing & bug report it.

#25 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 10:41 PM

Lissanna, if you have the know how (and are willing) it would be much easier to simply extract the spell data files from the beta client itself and use those to look up the coefficients rather than trying to reverse engineer them through testing (since the game can be rather buggy at times). As of right now though, all the coefficients you've come up with in game are matching up with the information I sent Arawethion a few days back from the 12164 Alpha Build.

For the sake of completion, here's the information I found from the Alpha Build:

Insect Swarm: .26
Moonfire DD: .18
Moonfire DoT: .18
Wrath: .741
Starfire: 1.00
Starsurge: 1.535
Starfall: .127 <~ Might not be correct, if you remember GC couldn't give us an accurate number when he pulled the coefficient from the spell data.
Wild Mushroom: .286

The only thing I can't find at the moment is Typhoon. It's coefficient is listed as 0 in the file I have right now. Not sure what's up with that.

#26 Hamlet

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 12:37 AM

Just recording a computation.

Currently, haste-capping Wrath after raid buffs and talents takes:
1.5 / (1.03*1.03*1.05*1.2) - 1 = 12.21% haste (which is where are 401 haste rating cap comes from).

With currently known Cataclysm mechanics, if NG is unchanged, it will take:
2.0 / (1.05*1.0801*1.2) - 1 = 46.96% haste from gear.

Haste-capping the GCD will take:
1.5 / (1.05*1.0801*1.2) - 1 = 10.22%

#27 lissanna

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 02:46 PM

Lissanna, if you have the know how (and are willing) it would be much easier to simply extract the spell data files from the beta client itself and use those to look up the coefficients rather than trying to reverse engineer them through testing (since the game can be rather buggy at times). As of right now though, all the coefficients you've come up with in game are matching up with the information I sent Arawethion a few days back from the 12164 Alpha Build.

For the sake of completion, here's the information I found from the Alpha Build:

Insect Swarm: .26
Moonfire DD: .18
Moonfire DoT: .18
Wrath: .741
Starfire: 1.00
Starsurge: 1.535
Starfall: .127 <~ Might not be correct, if you remember GC couldn't give us an accurate number when he pulled the coefficient from the spell data.
Wild Mushroom: .286

The only thing I can't find at the moment is Typhoon. It's coefficient is listed as 0 in the file I have right now. Not sure what's up with that.


I really don't like digging into the actual files (and I honestly don't know how). I prefer to just get samples of data from in the game. Also, if we find things that look really high or low from the in-game files (ie. if things aren't matching), then we can bug report it. ;)

Right now, Typhoon's tooltip is bugged, which is why it's showing up as 0 in the files. However, I believe I got the #'s from actually casting it for people to play with posted in another thread.

Starfall as a whole is back to feeling "nerfed", so the value for starfall may be accurate.

#28 lissanna

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 02:55 PM

Just recording a computation.

Currently, haste-capping Wrath after raid buffs and talents takes:
1.5 / (1.03*1.03*1.05*1.2) - 1 = 12.21% haste (which is where are 401 haste rating cap comes from).

With currently known Cataclysm mechanics, if NG is unchanged, it will take:
2.0 / (1.05*1.0801*1.2) - 1 = 46.96% haste from gear.

Haste-capping the GCD will take:
1.5 / (1.05*1.0801*1.2) - 1 = 10.22%


With 11.73% haste from gear (784 haste rating from gear), 8.01% haste from mastery, and the 5% haste from imp moonkin form, and Nature's Grace proc active, I have wrath down to a 1.31 second cast time. So, with even moderate haste values, we can still get wrath to have a fairly short cast time with NG active.

I'm at a 1.58 cast time on wrath without Nature's Grace (with the other buffs described above).

At 7.44% haste from gear (495 haste rating at 82), with haste from mastery and imp moonkin form (NO nature's grace), I have a 1.68 sec cast time.

#29 Hamlet

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 11:10 PM

Ok, it's been a little while and a bunch of stuff has changed, so here's a new spreadsheet update reflecting the current state of things on the beta. All the talents that aren't in the current build are zeroed out.

I tried to model the Twitter Eclipse and the smart energy from SS. The SS setup isn't great yet--it uses it only once per half-cycle, and you choose whether to use it inside Eclipse or outside Eclipse. I'm pretty sure the best DPS will be to just use it on cooldown, but that might be a lot trickier to model.

A few quick things:
--Euphoria obviously very weak for DPS now.
--So is Lunar Guidance.
--Genesis isn't bad, since our DoT's do so much damage now. If we continue to have a bunch of leftover points, it will be standard for DPS.

Anyway, it's there to play with more. Will keep updating when I'm not playing Starcraft.

Attached Files



#30 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 02:39 AM

I've gotta be honest, I'm not following some of the Calculations here with regard to Eclipse.

With the "default" stats, Wrath has ~15.8856 energy per cast. That would equate to about 6.295 casts in the Pre-Lunar phase. But the "Pre Lunar casts" value lists that as 5.1212? Furthermore, it says the phase is going to last 7.645 seconds. Is that accurate? I'm not questioning the value (it checks out with the average wrath cast time) but it just seems extremely short. They probably need to rebalance our Energy gains so that we aren't zipping from one end of Eclipse to the other.

#31 Hamlet

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 03:39 AM

That's 5.12 Wrath casts, assuming one Starsurge in the phase that also gives energy. Right now there are two setting for Starsurge, "Inside Eclipse" and "Outside Eclipse" (i.e. do you use Starsurge to lengthen Eclipse or to reach Eclipses faster?).

All of the listed durations for each Eclipse phase are the time spent casting that nuke only--not including any time spent casting Starsurge or DoT's during the phase.

If you remember from that video I uploaded, the Eclipse cycle moves slower than you think due to all the time spent casting other spells. Now that you basically have an incentive to cast MF/IS/SS all on cooldown, only about 75% of total cast time is spent on the main nukes. The sheet's showing a 44s cycle now, and that's using Starsurge to accelerate it.

#32 Erdluf

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 03:44 AM

Hamlet,

I thought I saw somewhere a statement that all DPS specs would have 200% (or 199.5%) crit damage. Spreadsheet is using 150% (+ meta). Does that match the current beta?

#33 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 04:02 AM

Okay, I see now.

Also, from what I remember of the Beta video he posted, Crits are only giving 150% damage because they haven't given us proper bonuses yet for the balance Specialization.

Also, the new Masteries were just posted. Eclipse gives +12% to Wrath and Starfire. I'm still not sure how that is going to work out since our mastery is essentially split (Eclipse being given to us at lvl 10, but we can't effect it through mastery till level 75+ or whatever it's going to end up as). Upon re-reading it though, it seems as though our mastery is intended to provide a bonus to the base effect of Eclipse (as it says "increases the bonus damage from Eclipse by 12%"). That still doesn't tell us what the base damage is. I assume it's still 0?

Here's a quote on Mastery conversions:

For example, a level 82 player will get 1 Mastery point for each 93 Mastery Rating he has. This mastery point will increase the mastery bonus differently depending on the class, +1 Mastery Point doesn't necessarily means a +1% increase to the bonus. (e.g. A Beast Mastery hunter with +2 Mastery gets +4% increased pet damage)



#34 Hamlet

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 04:51 AM

Oh, looks like we do have built-in Vengeance now, as well as 3% Dreamstate.

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 04:59 AM

Dreamstate is an interesting change, didn't really see that coming.

Is Starlight Wrath still maxing out at .3 seconds? Could you also give us a quick rundown on the passive Balance Specialization bonuses we have thusfar?

#36 Hamlet

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 05:54 AM

SW is currently giving 0.3 seconds off for 3 points.

Balance spec bonuses are currently:
--Starsurge
--Nature's Focus (70% pushback reduction for all of our balance spells)
--Vengeance (100% crit bonus increase for SF/Sfall/MF/W). Have to check sometime if it still interacts funny with Chaotic meta (guessing yes).
--Dreamstate (3%*Int MP5).

A few other things from looking at my character sheet:
--Crit/haste have unchanged conversions at L80.
--Crit% from Int is also unchanged. But the constant term is changed slightly.
--Can't figure out how hit rating is working. I have 268 rating on my gear, and 477 total Spirit on the character sheet. But in the spell hit tab I see 584 hit rating. Maybe they reduced the BoP bonus to 2/3 Spirit and didn't update the tooltip.
--Actually, there's something weird going on with Spirit generally. I have more than I should, and I when I put on or take off a Spirit piece, I lose/gain more than I should. It's like something is amplifying it, but I'm not sure what.
--But aside from that, hit rating is translating to hit% at the usual ratio.
--I have an amount of out-of-combat and in-combat mana regen that corresponds to current level 80 Spirit coefficients and 50% Intensity. In Resto spec, where the spec bonus gets 50% Intensity, I have 100% Intensity.

Thinking about it more, some of the oddities are probably due to leftover talents as the beta trees change. i.e. I stlll show the effects of some talents that I had when I copied over, even though they're deleted. For example, my Mark of the Wild on the beta gives 7% instead of 5%. So my built-in 50% Intensity is probably just due to the fact that I copied my character over in Resto spec and had 3/3 Intensity. Similarly, the hidden Spirit buff is probably Living Spirit (but that still doesn't explain why BoP seems to give less than 100%).

Here's a new sheet with Eclipse and Vengeance changed.

Attached Files



#37 Erdluf

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:43 PM

It looks like the 7/31 spreadsheet is missing Astral Leather Specialization which would need to be undone in the "True Int" calculation, and then added back in the "Total Int" calculation.

For Hurricane, I got the impression that channeled spells were going to get the same Haste treatment as DoTs (more ticks). Has that coefficient been tested? It is the number from live, but other classes are reporting substantial nerfs to their AoE spells.

Also, I've seen a couple of posts (Warlocks, and I believe Rogues), reporting that the number of ticks for DoTs should use ROUND(Base_Duration/Current_Tick_Rate), rather than FLOOR. I don't believe I've seen any Druid tests on this.

#38 Hamlet

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:49 PM

Will add in Astral Leather and a checkbox on the front page. Don't know about Hurricane, think it hasn't been tested. It does constant damage though (I think), so should be easy.

Didn't test the DoT ticks, but that would be an easy change.

Probably won't put up a new sheet now since this is all minor. I might not have time for much testing of anything for a few days now, but will probably stlll be reading and will still have ample time before the end of beta.

#39 iamrelevart

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:52 PM

My DoTs are not scaling with haste at the moment so I cannot test this.

Hurricane's damage coefficient has definitely been lowered but I'm not sure to what as I haven't tested that either. I just know its hitting for less with more SP on Beta than it currently does on live.

#40 Erdluf

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 02:40 PM

Roywyn reported that Blizzard's coef in cata is 1/2 of what it is in live. The two spells are very similar. On live, Hurricanes per/tick coef is 90% of Blizzard's (Hurricane provides a debuf while Blizzard is just damage).

At that damage level, Hurricane (with WG) always does less damage than IS tab-spam (any number of targets, with AoE cap at 10), assuming the targets will live long enough for IS to finish ticking. Hurricane is more convenient, and still provides a nice debuf.

If AoE damage stays that low (and things like IS stay that high), I wouldn't expect Wild Mushrooms to see much use except when

- They can be placed before they are needed or
- You use them for the Fungal Growth debuff or
- You just need a small AoE (for something like killing a snake trap).




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