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Cataclysm Balance Theorycraft and Spreadsheet Thread


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#41 Lucrece

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 06:47 PM

What tooltip values are you getting for your wild mushroom detonations? Assuming tooltip values display at the trainer even if you aren't 85 yet.

Also, are your DoT's critting for 200% damage, or just 150%?

#42 Hamlet

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 06:45 PM

Ok, I should be coming off my long WoW hiatus soon, and one of the things I did today was trying to go through and incorporate all the changes I've seen into the sheet. I skimmed through this thread and MMO and tried to get everything. The only major thing I think I've ignored for now is adjusting base damage of spells. That's never been a high priority since it can very easily be plugged in, even after live, and the focus is more on getting the talent mechanics correct in the sheet for now. If anyone does collect good data on spell damage ranges at level 85 (now that 85 is open on the beta), I'll put them in.

At the moment, HotW gives Int and Furor gives mana, right? I still can't log into the beta for a couple days.

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#43 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:11 PM

Yeah, that's right. HotW gives 2/4/6% mana, Furor gives 5/10/15% mana.

#44 Erdluf

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:00 PM

I'm not in beta, so my sources are second or third hand.

Dreamstate disappeared from the Wowhead baked-in list.

Wowhead shows a baked-in Moonfury with 25% Nature and Arcane spell damage. I'd assume that includes Spellstorm damage, but since we can't get Starsurge without Moonfury, you could code it either way.

I'd argue that Innervate should be counted as MP5, and not as more starting mana.

Base thorns damage (Basic calcs page) is way up (8x or more? Need to find it.) but scaling is below 1%.

Eclipse impacts all Arcane and Nature damage, so a rotation that has 100% IS uptime, and 25% Solar uptime should probably see its IS damage increased by 1+25%*EclipseMastery.

Note: I'm not sure if DoTs gain the Eclipse bonus when cast, or when they tick. I've heard reports both ways, and have not seen raw test numbers.

I think there are potentially four interesting major Eclipse strategies in a generic fight:

1) Rapidly bounce between Lunar and Solar (current spreadsheet)
2) Stay in the current Eclipse long enough to cast SS three times, then rapidly go to the other Eclipse.
3) Stay above 50 energy. When Solar expires, proc it again.
4) Stay below -50 energy. When Lunar expires, proc it again.

A couple of weeks ago Starfox reported those last two rotations are feasible.

For strategies 2 and 3, SF is used to extend Solar Eclipse.

For strategies 2 and 4, there are sub-strategies:

a) Use Wrath to extend Lunar Eclipse.
B) Use MF (with Lunar Shower*3) to extend Lunar Eclipse.

I don't think (B) is favorable with the current spreadsheet numbers until the Eclipse bonus is over 60%, but we should at least have some measure of its worth (or lack thereof).

Edit: Both Wowhead and MMO are showing E&M debuff at 13%, although I did see the earlier blue post that put it at 8% (and Ebon Plaguebringer is showing as 8% at both sites).

#45 copialinex

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:40 PM

Note: I'm not sure if DoTs gain the Eclipse bonus when cast, or when they tick. I've heard reports both ways, and have not seen raw test numbers.


I found a video with the combat log open when casting. (Beta 12803)
The video shows that MF gains Eclipse bonus when cast, so we can assume the same with IS.
Also, notice that the last SF of Eclipse is benefited from Eclipse. (I think it's because the spell_damage event comes before the spellcast_finished event, this shouldn't happen to WR)

#46 Hamlet

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:16 PM

So a DoT cast during Eclipse retains the bonus for its full duration? (This is what we'd expect based on WLK behavior of DoT's, but wondering if you definitely observed it in Cata).

#47 copialinex

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:31 PM

At 0:44 in the video, a MF cast within Lunar Eclipse deals 3563 damage under Lunar Eclipse, at 0:50, the same MF deals 3562 damage, this time, out of Eclipse. I've only found this example, so it can be a bug (the MF was being refreshed by SF glyph), but I don't think so.

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:34 PM

That would make the most sense. I'm actually curious how DoT refreshing will work into this. It used to be that all hard refreshes (actually recasting the dot) would reset their damage modifiers, but soft refreshes (talents/effects that extended durations) would not. But the question is does the new DoT mechanic still count as a hard refresh or will it be considered a soft refresh?

#49 Hamlet

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 02:00 PM

Finally logged into the beta again and played with some things. Notes:
--Spec bonuses don't take effect until you have 1 point in the tree.
--Eclipse seems to give 25% before you train the "Total Eclipse" Mastery.
--You now can re-proc one Eclipse after letting it run for a full 45s. You can't do it after immediately moving to the middle to end it and moving back. There seems to be a cooldown; I'll try to see what it is.
--Think it's around 30s, might be 45s.
--Best I can tell, E&M is actually giving 13%. They might have put the old spell data line back in.
--Tooltip says each point of Mastery gives 1.5% to Eclipse. If each point of Mastery is 93 rating, that appears to make Mastery very weak.
--Starsurge no longer benefits from Euphoria.
--Eclipse does give 37% after training Total Eclipse.
--Eclipse doesn't fade at 0 Energy, only when you move past 0 Energy, even if you drop combat.
--Confirmed that DoT's retain Eclipse bonus after buff fades.
--Confirmed that Dreamstate is gone. It was a rather small amount of mana before though. The mana scene is still dominated by Euphoria.
--DoT's still aren't affected by haste.
--There is some kind of DoT refresh mechanic though: if I reapply a DoT's that's already there, the tick rate is not interrupted, and I get a bit of extra duration. So I think the best time to refresh a DoT is before the last tick.
--Damage is recomputed on re-cast of the DoT.

Sheet with a few tweaks. Haven't decided how to deal with the DoT thing. Will probably at least compute an average Eclipse uptime and use that for now, but eventually there may be more advanced rotations. In general, something I want to do soon is try adding in some more rotation options.

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#50 copialinex

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 06:34 PM

Some time ago, Relevart posted that energy gains were when you finished casting it (and the 12803 video I saw confirmed it), but in 12857 videos it seems that you gain energy when the spell lands, so my question is: If I'm right about the energy gain, will you gain energy if the spell miss?
This leads me to two more questions:
1. Does the last WR from Eclipse benefit from it? Due to travel time, in 12803, last SF in eclipse benefited from it, but WR didn't. (I think it does now, but it's just a feeling)
2. When does SS check the energy you have? I'll explain myself:
If you are at +5 energy and cast a WR, when the WR lands, you will be at -8 energy, so, what happens if following this WR comes a SS?
  • a: SS checks energy when you begin casting it) When you begin casting SS, WR has yet to land, so SS says "you have Solar energy, you'll obtain Solar energy", WR lands, you get to -8, lose Eclipse, SS lands, you get to +8 whitout Eclipse.
  • b: SS checks energy when cast is complete) When you finish casting SS, WR has landed, so SS says "you have Lunar energy, you'll obtain Lunar energy", SS lands, you get to -24. (I think this one, but, as before, it's just a feeling)
  • c: SS checks energy when lands) SS lands, you get to -24.


#51 Consider

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 07:08 PM

Yes, you do not gain energy until the spell lands.

No, you do not gain energy if a spell misses.

Yes, the last Wrath casted from Eclipse does benefit from it, as does the last Starfire. The behavior here is odd though, and it could just be because I'm not that well versed in Balance, and thus am missing something obvious, but you don't actually lose Eclipse (Lunar) until the Starfire casted after the one which brings you to a positive amount of solar energy, as was said on the last post of the previous page. This screenshot should show what I mean; the buff doesn't go away when hitting 0 lunar, but only once you cast Starfire after that point. Eclipse (Solar), on the other hand, will cancel on the Wrath which brings you past the 0 mark - some of the time, seemingly dependent on distance from the mob (i.e, if I was at max range chanining Wrath, it would copy the Starfire behavior, but if I was close, it would cancel the second it hit/crossed 0). Strange.

As to the last scenario, I had it give me Lunar Energy, so b or c, presumably the first.

#52 Erdluf

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 02:54 AM

Five hours ago, Twigele at simulationcraft posted an update to their cata branch that includes the comment

Eclipse: Buffs fade when crossing 0, reaching is no longer enough. Buffs just have a 30s cd, you can proc them again even if you still have one up

No explicit mention that this has been tested, but it would be a strange comment to make without testing.
In my opinion, their Balance modeling and theorycraft has always been extremely good.

#53 lissanna

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 03:06 AM

Five hours ago, Twigele at simulationcraft posted an update to their cata branch that includes the comment
No explicit mention that this has been tested, but it would be a strange comment to make without testing.
In my opinion, their Balance modeling and theorycraft has always been extremely good.


that seems to make sense, given that my power will decay down to 0 between mobs when I'm soloing, but I still have the Eclipse buff for 1 more cast on the next mob.

#54 Hamlet

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 04:08 AM

Just asked someone who's 85 to test--base mana is 18635.

e: someone sent me a PM with screenshots of two Eclipse procs 21s apart. I'd been almost certain when I was playing with it that was 30 or slightly longer. I'll probably tinker with it a little more--I was thinking there might be something odd going on. People should see if they notice anything.

#55 Starfox

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 09:13 AM

Just asked someone who's 85 to test--base mana is 18635.

e: someone sent me a PM with screenshots of two Eclipse procs 21s apart. I'd been almost certain when I was playing with it that was 30 or slightly longer. I'll probably tinker with it a little more--I was thinking there might be something odd going on. People should see if they notice anything.


The eclipse buffs are the same as the ones on live, the only thing they changed seems to be the duration, they still have that 30sec cd.
If you really want I can post you a screen shot with two eclipse procs about 1sec apart, because you still gain solar when you change gear. ;)

Five hours ago, Twigele at simulationcraft posted an update to their cata branch that includes the comment
No explicit mention that this has been tested, but it would be a strange comment to make without testing.
In my opinion, their Balance modeling and theorycraft has always been extremely good.


Hehe, yea I'm a bit ambitious about the balance module, but that goes off-topic. ;)
I did smack the orgrimmar target dummies for a couple of tries, proc eclipse, lose a bit of eclipse energy, wait X seconds, try to proc again. I managed to get eclipse proc again if I timed my spell to land with just under 15s left on the buff, which led my to belief that they did only the change duration and how much %bonus eclipse gives. That's why I redid the 30s cd on the eclipse buffs.
Eclipse has to have a cd, or else it is just unlimited mana, but it can't have a to big one, because in a raid with bloodlust etc you would run through the bar rather quick. So perhaps they could make it so the cooldown resets once you get to the other side of the bar, else it would probably the best to always stay on one side.
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#56 Ereshmilor

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 01:31 PM

With Wrath doing more dps than SF and IS dealing way more dmg than MF, there will be no lunar but 100% solar.

#57 Hamlet

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 02:28 PM

When you tested that 30s cooldown, did you ever drop combat?

#58 Erdluf

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 02:51 PM

With Wrath doing more dps than SF and IS dealing way more dmg than MF, there will be no lunar but 100% solar.


The current spreadsheet numbers make that a good guess. It might turn out that you want to get back to Lunar just for Starfall, but the gains, if any, would be small.

Also, Lunar Shower makes Lunar very favorable if you have mana issues, or for situations with lots of movement.

Lunar might also be better for for DoT+Tab rotations where targets don't stay alive for very long, although Solar is better for our pure AoE spells (Mushrooms, Hurricane, Typhoon).

#59 Starfox

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 08:27 PM

When you tested that 30s cooldown, did you ever drop combat?


oh, so if you drop combat the cd resets. Yea I used the ooc decay for 1sek to get < 100 eclipse, :/
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#60 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 09:15 PM

I'm highly skeptical that we will be allowed a rotation that enables us to simply hover at one end of Eclipse ad infinitum simply because this seems to be exactly what the developers are working against. Either they're going to make it unfavorable for this kind of rotation to work out or they're just going to make it impossible altogether.




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