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The Way of the Light: Holy in Cataclysm


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#321 Sethronu

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 10:57 AM

I don't feel, especially on the wave of the recent HS nerf, that any Holy pally can skip Crusade. HS is our passive HP heal, and one we will be using more or less on CD, or any time we are moving without a 3 stack of HP. I'll have to run a few parses and see how much healing 30% of HS is as opposed to 6% overall healing. But speaking from a usefulness point of view, I personally feel 30% on one of my main nukes to be more practically useful.

Edit: Also, I would think PoTI procing beacon is intended, unless LoD procing beacon is NOT intended as well.


I suppose in a way it's a matter of playstyle and also depends on your synergy with the rest of your raid group, but I personally feel that HS (especially after the nerf) is more of a filler to trigger procs and get that HP charge than a real heal. The healing it does is underwhelming even with 3/3 Crusade, and that will be even more noticeable with the enormous Cata healthpools.

Right now, HS is roughly 10-15% of my overall healing, so Crusade would be at best around 5% overall increase - but much of it is wasted because it's just random sniping people at 90% to get that Holy Power, whereas the 6% from Divinity is always there to benefit when I actually need heavy throughput. There's also the small increase to heals done to me, not exactly a big deal since PotI+Bubble alone is enough to take care of my survivability most of the time, but still a bonus.

@ Aradhir, I'm pretty sure LoD proccing beacon will get nerfed - it is really overpowered in its current state, and has to go, most likely with a nerf to its healing done on top of it. As for Spirit... I don't have a lot of beta raiding experience or any real calculations to back this up, but I'd imagine Spirit will be a key stat at the very least throughout all of first raiding tier. Being able to use DL / FoL more liberally is likely more useful than having a couple extra % of Crit or whatever, and our mana regen does need every bit of help we can get - Divine Plea is extremely situational, and combined with even more situational (and weak) Judgement spam, that is all we have for regen apart from Spirit.

#322 Milney2007

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 04:10 PM

I'm pretty sure LoD proccing beacon will get nerfed - it is really overpowered in its current state, and has to go, most likely with a nerf to its healing done on top of it.


Agreed. I am finding that in it's current form my best rotation is a ToR HS>HL*>HL*>LoD for any heavy damage tank fights. The raw healing is pretty uninspiring, but the PoI/LoD beacon transfers are more than enough to keep that tank up and LoD/HS heals are continuously on the raid (admittedly melee mostly). This is the Fire and Forget idea of beacon they were looking to remove by nerfing it in the first place. Add to that a 5k heal to 6 people (glyphed) every 6 seconds for free.....

Until they do change it this will most certainly be my rotation. Spamming LoD is too OP to do anything else.

(* Substituting DL where needed)

#323 Naronas

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 02:14 AM

Agreed. I am finding that in it's current form my best rotation is a ToR HS>HL*>HL*>LoD for any heavy damage tank fights. The raw healing is pretty uninspiring, but the PoI/LoD beacon transfers are more than enough to keep that tank up and LoD/HS heals are continuously on the raid (admittedly melee mostly). This is the Fire and Forget idea of beacon they were looking to remove by nerfing it in the first place. Add to that a 5k heal to 6 people (glyphed) every 6 seconds for free.....

Until they do change it this will most certainly be my rotation. Spamming LoD is too OP to do anything else.

(* Substituting DL where needed)


What I would hope will happen is LoD healing will no longer transfer on to beacon targets. Takes the question of what to use out of HP dumping in its current state. But, experience tells me odds are LoD healing WILL get nerfed (into the ground), not long after the first tier of raiding. Right now, it is incredibly powerful, and costs no mana. Something has got to give there.

As to the Crusade v. Divinity. personaly, I will be taking both at the moment come 85. But I think that it really comes down to Situational Usefulness against overall throughput. Do you find yourself needing to pop off lots of Insta-Cast heals on a fight with heavy movement, or are you spamming DL every non HS cooldown? THese talents will end up being usefull differently in different fights.

#324 relaxo

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 02:38 PM

calculations regarding the comparison of Intellect and Spirit heavy gemming below.

#325 LorDC

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 03:31 PM

I think the biggest mistake is to ignore SP and crit gains. Gemming for int will give you roughly 10% bonus to SP. Which translates in 10% stronger heals. Maybe I am wrong but in Cataclysm environment it is not negligible.
But again maybe ability to use DL more freely(with bigger effective mana pool) will be more important than overall stronger heals.

Edit: Well, with last calculations I think it is obvious that int gemming is better.

#326 Naronas

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 06:01 AM

Crit is still a bad stat for healers in general. I don't like my healing to be RNG dependent. The real trick is going to be knowing the balance of Int-Haste-SP that works for you in Cata.

#327 Nodrak

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 06:08 AM

I've redone my calculations and come to the conclusion, that Spirit is in fact not that much superior, about 8k Mana over the course of a five minute fight.


You cannot assume AT, even more so now that Tauren can be paladins. AT is amazingly powerful for mana regen, and it is Maxmana based so it makes Int look better. You also have the mana regen part wrong, should be:
(0.005 + 5 * Spirit * Sqrt(Int) * 0.003345) * 0.5 = Mp5 in combat from spirit.

However, some numbers that might be amusing:
Level 85, 6000 spellpower, 5% Raid haste buff, 0 Haste from gear, No Crits, LoD and SoI Glyphs, 3/3 Crusade, 3/3 Divinity:
		Beacon	Beacon		Beacon		Tower	Tower
		HL	3HS:6HL:LoD	3HS:8HL:LoD	3HL:LoD	HS:2HL:LoD

Heal Max	13878	189541		221236		100638	102517
Cast Time	2.12	18.79		22.06		7.63	6.79
Max HPS		6544	10089		10031		13182	15106
								
BeaconHPS	2181	3433		n/a		6990	7047
RaidHPS		4363	6656		n/a		6192	8060
								
Mana		2108	18269		22485		6324	6090
HPM Max		6.58	10.37		9.84		15.91	16.83
								
		Beacon	Beacon		Beacon		Tower	Tower
		DL	3HS:6DL:LoD	3HS:8DL:LoD	3DL:LoD	HS:2DL:LoD

Heal Max	37025	332362		406411		146932	133379
Cast Time	2.12	18.79		22.06		7.63	6.79
Max HPS		17458	17692		18427		19245	19654
								
BeaconHPS	5819	n/a		n/a		13053	11594
RaidHPS		11639	n/a		n/a		6192	8060
								
Mana		7027	47781		61834		21080	15927
HPM Max		5.27	6.96		6.57		6.97	8.37


Using similar stats I used to generate those, priests are expecting somewhere around 40,000+ HPS from PoH + CoH spam rotation. Given that I ignored PotI and don't have numbers for Holy Radiance, this is off, but by that much seems a strech. When I get more time I will do the FoL numbers, but my spreadsheet is an ungodly mess right now.

One interesting fact about HL v DL. Going from HL to Divine light, we gain 4,548 HPS at the cost of 7,243 mp5, which is going to destroy anything resembling a need for spirit. Using HL/LoD we can heal for over 100,000 for less then the cost of a Divine Light. Ofcourse a rotation with FoL would be better, but I will get to that some time.

#328 Fallenangel

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 09:12 AM

Using the figures above (~4.2K int, ~2.2K spirit), using 2 +spirit trinkets such as and during mana tide will grant 45K mana every 3 minutes. Having 2 resto shamans makes that every 2 minutes and it's fully controllable - using a proc trinket such as should also work nicely, though. A holy priest will get an extra 40% on top of that, or a whopping 63K.
This seems to pose serious balance issues especially for 10 man where a lack of a MT can dramatically alter the mana balance.

edit: linked to the wrong item, thanks.

#329 relaxo

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 01:17 PM

You cannot assume AT, even more so now that Tauren can be paladins. AT is amazingly powerful for mana regen, and it is Maxmana based so it makes Int look better. You also have the mana regen part wrong, should be:
(0.005 + 5 * Spirit * Sqrt(Int) * 0.003345) * 0.5 = Mp5 in combat from spirit.


Thanks for pointing that out!

Here finally the hopefully correct calculation which should leave no doubt on what to gem for.
Bloodelves profit even more from Intellect due to Arcane Torrent.

I'm using [URL="http://www.wowhead.com/profile=21783517"]this equipment[/URL] as a basis.


BaseMana = 23422 (@ 85)
INT = 4227
SPI = 2174

MaxMana = BaseMana + 20 + 15 * (INT - 20) = 86547
MP5 = 0.0025 + 5 * SPI *  sqrt(INT) * 0.003345 * 0.5 = 1181.99
TotalMana = MaxMana + 60 * MP5 + Mana(DivinePlea) + Mana(Replenishment)

Mana(DivinePlea) = MaxMana * 0.15 * 2 = 25964
Mana(Replenishment) = MaxMana * 0.001 * 300 = 25964

-> TotalMana = 209394

The above is assuming a five minute fight and the usage of DP two times.

Now I'm assuming you're using 10 gems independant of socket bonuses etc.

We choose between 10 * 40 Int or 10 * 40 Spirit:

[B]SPIRIT[/B]
INT = 4227
SPI = 2574

-> MP5 = 1399.46
-> TotalMana = 222443
-> ManaGain = 13049  ≈ 6.23%

[B]INTELLECT[/B]
INT = 4647
SPI = 2174

-> MP5 = 1239.32
-> MaxMana = 92847
-> Mana(DivinePlea) = MaxMana * 0.15 * 2 = 27854
-> Mana(Replenishment) = MaxMana * 0.001 * 300 = 27854

-> TotalMana = 222914
-> ManaGain = 13520  ≈ 6.46%

Additionally, you gain 420 spell power (about 10% gain) and 0.65% crit chance from Intellect.

@ Fallenangel: Do you mean

#330 Nodrak

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 02:53 PM

Those spirit trinkets can be assumed to share a 30 cooldown. Also, is better unless you align the Use on the Core up with every other mana tide, at which it slightly pulls ahead. Logging out ate my post with math, but the numbers were basically:

DMC
No MT: 400 Avg spirit
With MT 426 Avg spirit

Core
No MT: 321 Avg spirit
With MT: 481 Avg spirit

#331 Fallenangel

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 03:29 PM

The average spirit you gain from Core if you use it every 3 minutes is 775. Assuming a 15s overlap with MT, it counts as (5*1926 + 15*1926*4.5) / 180 = 775.
DCT, assuming 100% uptime, has an average spirit value of (17*400*4.5 + 163*400) / 180 = 532.
Not sure how you derived a value of 426 for DCT?
As for shared cooldown that is a concern. wowhead doesn't list any shared CDs for Core which is suspicious. Combining DCT and Core or using a proc trinket like FoM gets around that issue.
MT is not far behind other mana CDs without any spirit trinkets and for a single target. Now factor in the spirit trinkets and affecting up to 5 targets, and you get a balance problem.

#332 Nodrak

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 04:02 PM

The average spirit you gain from Core if you use it every 3 minutes is 775. Assuming a 15s overlap with MT, it counts as (5*1926 + 15*1926*4.5) / 180 = 775.
DCT, assuming 100% uptime, has an average spirit value of (17*400*4.5 + 163*400) / 180 = 532.
Not sure how you derived a value of 426 for DCT?
As for shared cooldown that is a concern. wowhead doesn't list any shared CDs for Core which is suspicious. Combining DCT and Core or using a proc trinket like FoM gets around that issue.
MT is not far behind other mana CDs without any spirit trinkets and for a single target. Now factor in the spirit trinkets and affecting up to 5 targets, and you get a balance problem.


I assumed MT was 350% of X instead of X + 350%. I had factored both as I wasn't sure, but that was in the post that didn't make it. Mana tide is also only 12s as far as I know. I forgot about waiting for each MT, which does produce a boost in the average spirit, I also forgot the second mana tide for the DMC, but thats what I get for doing too many things at once.

For 12s mana tide, (8*1926 + 12*1926*4.5)/180 = 663, vs (168*400 + 12*400*4.5)/180 = 493

DMC: 400 | 493 spirit
Core: 321 | 663 spirit

On the power of Mana Tide, lets consider the boost for Core, of ~342 spirit. At 6000 Int and 3000 Spirit, this mana tide boosted the Mp5 from just the trinket by ~221.5 Mp5. However, this is 1926 spirit getting boosted by MT, when we only have 3000 spirit to start with (rough 85 numbers). This is more of a case of the trinket giving a large boost to a stat we won't be stacking. However, there are many powerful trinkets it will have to contend with, and they will not require a resto shaman. The 663 avg spirit from Core with MT gives around 430 Mp5 at that gear level. Tyrande's Favorite Doll is 350 Mp5 at all gear levels and does not need MT.

MT has always been powerful, Wrath's Divine Plea was pretty much matched in total mana return by Wrath's MTT, but the current/cata MT is kind of wonky. For example poping it gives moonkins 4.5x more Hit rating >.>

Edit again: Bah I even read that talent like 10 times since 4.0 came out and never tied it to the MTT... Math is off in this post by a bit.

#333 Fallenangel

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 04:16 PM

Tide can be talented to last 16.8s - an odd figure, for sure, as it's a 40% boost from the base 12s. The general purpose resto shaman spec can accommodate this talent, so the 15s overlap between the spirit procs and MT is not the actual best case scenario.
As a simple rule of thumb, having a tide is the same as a 30% boost to spirit. This is true for static spirit on gear.

#334 Lantern214

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:20 AM

Let's not forget

[(discovered via Archeology.)
I see this leaning towards a dps then a healer.

and



#335 Xanro

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 03:29 PM

Another possibility to stack spirit with MT is the T11 4 set bonus.

(4) Set: Whenever your Holy Radiance spell is active, you gain 1620 Spirit.


This is an average Spirit gain of 1620*10/30=540 spirit.
(if used on CD)

with only one MT (assuming you can use HR on cd, which is quite improbable as it is one of the strongest AE healing effects...) you could increase to an average spirit of ((1620*10*4,5)+(1620*50))/180=855 spirit

As the effect of HR lasts only 10s there should be no problem to overlap with MT.

#336 malthrin

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:31 PM

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