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The Way of the Light: Holy in Cataclysm


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#21 Blutelf

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 06:20 PM

I would actually want Seal of Wisdom and Seal of Light to be removed from the game now. Judgement is now one spell, combining Light and Justice effects. There is no reason for SoW to exist now that its Judgement effect is gone and there is no reason for SoL to exist. They are remnants of a different era.

Especially the mana restore effect of SOW does not fit what we know about Cataclysm and its focus on mana conservation. As it is now, Holy Paladins are receiving Meditation and maybe something will be done to Divine Plea to balance it against our combination of Illumination and Meditation. SoW restoring mana like it does right now on live would be very much in favour of paladins indeed, so I do not think this will be kept as it is.

SoW could be made % of base mana instead of total to offer a last resort mana restore mechanism for paladins in PVP, and SoL could be kept ingame by pretending it may be useful for a Prot or a Ret when the healers are stressed, but I would rather see them go.

#22 silkens

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 06:31 PM

I would rather see them combined and/or reworked to incorporate the current effects of Glyph of Seal of Wisdom or Glyph of Seal of Light. Perhaps have Seal of Light increase your spell critical chance or spell haste by 5%. Alternatively they could make it a more unique proc (e.g. "Seal of Light: causes your healing spells to heal targets under 25% health for an additional X over 12 sec..."). The important thing is that while Prot and Ret have a choice between SoV and SoR, Holy doesnt have any useful Seals. Since Seals are an important part of being a Paladin, they should get one that is useful for healing, which means reworking SoL or SoW.

#23 silkens

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 06:57 PM

OK, these are quite drastic changes and we haven't seen all the new stuff yet.
EDIT: Just noticed I was evaluating Word of Glory a bit unfairly. If mana is going to be a real issue in Cataclysm, then I imagine that replacing a HL/GHL with WoG might be a valid mana-saving strategy.


Yes, but I expect that there is at least another Holy ability that feeds off Holy Power. A combo point mechanic only makes sense if there is more than finisher to choose from. Otherwise, you are just replacing one HL with WoG every 18 sec, regardless of the circumstances.

For instance, if Light of Dawn scaled through Holy Power, you would be choosing WoG vs. LoD, making the mechanic much more interesting. This is how the mechanic seems to work for Ret, since they are choosing between spending their Holy Power on Inquisition, Divine Storm or Templar's Verdict.

#24 Wolfies

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 08:58 AM

Has anyone thought of WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie for your spec? You lose a few things, but it seems like it would be nice for when you have very long fights, no? Would this spec justify losing the talents in holy? Thoughts?

Edit: Come to think of it...something like this will probably be changed, right?

#25 cremor

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 09:36 AM

You have to spend 31 points in your primary tree before you can go to any other tree.

#26 Hidden

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 09:46 AM

Has anyone thought of WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie for your spec? You lose a few things, but it seems like it would be nice for when you have very long fights, no? Would this spec justify losing the talents in holy? Thoughts?

Edit: Come to think of it...something like this will probably be changed, right?


You have to spend 31 points into your primary tree first. Thus your build wouldn't be possible.

#27 Nätion

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 02:28 PM

Not to mention the fact that those trees are going to be wildly inaccurate, based on what has already been said about the state of paladin trees.

#28 Nnr

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 06:05 AM

The new trees are up on WoWtal. By the looks of it it's still pretty much impossible to get Divine Guardian as Holy, yet putting points in Prot for Protector of the Innocent (6% more healing in general) looks more viable than going deep Ret, unless instant heals from Judgements are gonna be pretty overpowered.
Also note that now you need to take Divine Favor to get Aura Mastery and our new 31-pointer is the "holy breath" Light of Dawn.

Given that haste will still be one of the best stats every caster dives deep into, I would think about something like 31/8/2 or similar, with Protector of the Innocent in Prot and Rule of Law in Ret for more critical healing. Considering leaving something out to get at least one point in Enlighted Judgements, but if the Light of Dawn turns out to be a cone healing used on melee group, you should be pretty close anyway.

#29 iatnuolas

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 06:20 AM

The new trees are up on WoWtal. By the looks of it it's still pretty much impossible to get Divine Guardian as Holyp


I was just typing this exact thing. After I saw the change, I started thinking of a more Ret oriented spec, putting points into Crusade (this is gonna vary with how good HS is, plus I have no doubt that the early Ret tree will change a lot more), Rule of Law for the HL crit (since they removed the Holy Light portion of Sanctified Light, as I said, this will probably change), and Conviction, since it's now changed to give a 9% healing increase on spell crit.

My spec is looking like WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie, since the only real beneficial talent you'll get from Prot will be Protector of the Innocent. We might be swapping points from Imp. LoH to Denounce, depending on if Exorcism generates Holy Power (doubtful, but one can hope), and how well LoH will be scaling with the increased health pools, or if it's modified in a later beta patch.

#30 [ Duracell-]

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 06:30 AM

Talking from a PvE perspective, going ret would be pretty viable, as well, due to the change in Conviction (9% healing at a full stack of 3) if you can keep it up. Something like 33/0/8. It shouldn't be a problem since we have Sanctified Light, Rule of Law, and Divine Favor to help us with the crit. And if I'm thinking correctly, if healing is going to be more predictable and less whack-a-mole, we won't be as pressure to spam-heal and can get the stacks of Conviction up without worrying about a tank gib.

A few things to note:
- Speed of Light looks to be one of those essential must-have talents. 30% haste on a direct healing spell plus reducing our PBAOE HoT to a 30s CD. Infusion of Light reduces the cast time of Holy Light to 0.5s, and Speed of Light reduces it further by 30% after casting Holy Shock, down to 0.35s. With Clarity of Purpose, this reduces Holy Light to near instant (0.05s). Divine Light is reduced to 1.89s with the Speed of Light proc.
- Not sure why Denounce is in the tree, especially when there's no other talent in Holy that synergizes with Exorcism. More of a PvP/soloing talent than anything, I suppose. Gives holy that extra pressure much needed in arenas.
- Tower of Radiance seems to be pretty interesting, but so far, the only Holy spell at our disposal that uses Holy Power is Word of Glory. I might stick those points in Imp Concentration Aura if that seems to be the case. It does give us another way to stack Holy Power, though, which means more free heals.

#31 Mex

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 06:34 AM

I think a ret sub-spec looks more attractive that prot. You gain PoJ (although how valuable this will be with Speed of Light remains to be seen), but the real winner looks like Conviction. 3% increase to damage and healing following a crit, but stacks 3 times, for a total of 9% as long as you crit once every 30 seconds. Plus you don't need any filler, you get either 5% HL crit or 10% holy shock effect per point, instead of some very marginally useful armour / damage.

The holy tree looks very dense though. I don't think that there's any way to spend 31 talents in there without skipping some good talents.
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#32 [ Duracell-]

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 06:56 AM

The only real "bad" talent right now (from a PvE standpoint) is Denounce. Maybe it's working as intended? GC did mention that they wanted players to make choices and not be held down to a cookie-cutter.

If anything, you can take out a point in Clarity of Purpose and Enlightened Judgements and stick those two in PoJ (something like this).

#33 Blutelf

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 07:42 AM

31 (Divinity not maxed) points in Holy and subspeccing Ret looks very attractive (or a must have if you like). Unfortunately PoJ cannot be maxed out by default, so a point will have to be moved from the other Ret talents, alternatively with 32 points Divinity can be maxed and PoJ ignored.

I do not like Beacon of Light - it's still a MT healing talent and two paladins swapping BoL are still absolutely the best choice for MT healing. The reduction to 50% just means less overheal, really. At the same time it makes the talent work less well in 5 mans.

#34 Noraj

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 07:51 AM

31 (Divinity not maxed) points in Holy and subspeccing Ret looks very attractive (or a must have if you like). Unfortunately PoJ cannot be maxed out by default, so a point will have to be moved from the other Ret talents, alternatively with 32 points Divinity can be maxed and PoJ ignored.

I do not like Beacon of Light - it's still a MT healing talent and two paladins swapping BoL are still absolutely the best choice for MT healing. The reduction to 50% just means less overheal, really. At the same time it makes the talent work less well in 5 mans.


Assuming I'm reading the current build correctly, and BoL transfers 50% of ALL healing, the reduction is fully justifiable. If paladins were still stuck with single target heals, it would be a different story, but with Light of Dawn, and more importantly Healing Hands, 50% really isn't so bad. With a 30% possible uptime on Healing Hands with 3/3 Speed of Light and proper positioning, you'd be streaming massive amounts of health back to a tank at 100% BoL effectiveness.

Even with its tooltip of ~680 hps / target, a single full duration HH in a 5 man hitting all targets would yield 6,800 health to the tank, with another 13,600 from BoL transferral (6800 health over 10 seconds on four additional targets, 50% transferral). That's 2.4k HPS on top of everything else you cast during those 10 seconds. Now imagine that applied to a melee or ranged cluster.
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#35 Nnr

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 08:01 AM

Tower of Radiance doesn't look so awesome after I looked closer at a tooltip - it means you have to directly heal your beacon target, which I hardly do right now.

While I do agree that Ret subspec might be more useful in early game, crit was never a reliable tool and while more healing per cast usually just means more overhealing, Protector of the Innocent looks very promising giving a flat increase. There's no indication if it will stack with Divinity, though.

Also, some meat from summary of the changes:

[Specialization] Holy Shock - Now also grants a charge of Holy Power when used.
Seal of Light - Removed.
Seal of Mana - Removed.
Seal of the Pure - Fills the Paladin with divine power for 30 min, giving each single-target melee attack a chance to heal the Paladin for [0.15*AP+0.15*SPH] and restore % of the paladin's maximum mana. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal [1+0.25*SPH+0.16*AP] Holy damage to an enemy.
Word of Glory (5) - Consumes all Holy Power to heal a friendly target for 92 to 101 per application of Holy Power. (@24)
Divine Illumination - Removed.


Seal of the Pure looks very nice. Word of Glory (as expected) is supposed to be the new "oh sh*t" heal, while it looks like that Holy Shock will be used more, so you don't get Power starved.

#36 Tifordin

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 08:41 AM

My spec is looking like WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie, since the only real beneficial talent you'll get from Prot will be Protector of the Innocent.

I arrived at the exact same spec. +15% crit to HL and +30% to HS might well be needed to make either of those spells viable, and as others have said, the Conviction bonus to healing looks fantastic. Sure looks more appealing than two dud talents to get Protector of the Innocent to me.

#37 stevorino

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 08:49 AM

Looks quite good in general. But is there anybody but me worrying about the double 30sec cooldown on both aoe heals?

#38 Blutelf

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:42 AM

Assuming I'm reading the current build correctly, and BoL transfers 50% of ALL healing, the reduction is fully justifiable.


This is true and I haven't considered that. However, supposedly none of our AE heals are being transferred to Beacon right now on beta. This may or may not be an oversight.

While I do agree that Ret subspec might be more useful in early game, crit was never a reliable tool and while more healing per cast usually just means more overhealing, Protector of the Innocent looks very promising giving a flat increase. There's no indication if it will stack with Divinity, though.


One would have to compare the following:

PoI is no doubt a good raid-wide talent with its +3% damage reduction and +6% received healing increased

vs.

+9% healing done from Conviction (3 stacks of +3%, at 30 sec, triggered by ability/spell crit)
+15% crit chance on HL
+30% healing done on Holy Shock

#39 Nnr

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 11:11 AM

PoI is no doubt a good raid-wide talent with its +3% damage reduction and +6% received healing increased

vs.

+9% healing done from Conviction (3 stacks of +3%, at 30 sec, triggered by ability/spell crit)
+15% crit chance on HL
+30% healing done on Holy Shock


I think we can't really tell until itemization will be completely clear - if you'll be able to stack crit up to ridiculous amounts, just like you did in Ulduar, it's gonna be pretty viable. Also, you need to know how much Holy Shocks you'll be able to pull off during an average fight - I suppose it's gonna be much more than now mostly due to Holy Shock giving you free Holy Power and the mentioned talents.

#40 Proudmoore

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 11:45 AM

PoI is no doubt a good raid-wide talent with its +3% damage reduction and +6% received healing increased


I'm not sure that PoI will be a raid-wide damage reduction. The exact wording is "Reduces your damage taken and the amount healed on any target..." - implying that the two effects are mutually independant. Plus, damage reduction is no longer found anywhere else in the Protection tree - the damage reduction on Sanctuary has been replaced by the crit reduction. Finally, Discipline Priests no longer have the 3% damage reduction buff, suggesting that it has been done away with completely.

Hence, I would suggest that the only raid wide bonus is the healing modifier.




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