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The Way of the Light: Holy in Cataclysm


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#41 CrazyScot

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 01:15 PM

Denounce seems like a strong place to put a single point if you're going with a conviction build, a mana free spell which will be up to use on cooldown the majority of the time to try and maintain conviction stacks and helping out with DPS can't be a waste of a single point.

As has been said we're not going to be spam healers any more and for me it would be a waste to drop the ability to have another ability maintain conviction stacks for free. Dispelling magic is going to be a whole lot less of an issue with all healers now having it so it becomes a prime candidate to drop out.

#42 LorDC

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 02:41 PM

I don't see how Denounce is useful for conviction maintaining since it requires holy spell crit to proc. I hardly see conviction maintaining as problem. Even if we cast one spell per 10 seconds(which is ridiculously low casting rate) and have 30% crit(looking at RoL talent it is easy to achieve) it should be OK.
Dropping dispel is bad idea since Blizzard said that they will design encounters considering that all healers have magic dispel. In 25 mans it may be an option but in 10 and 5 mans it will be very uncomfortable.

#43 iatnuolas

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 04:16 PM

PoI is no doubt a good raid-wide talent with its +3% damage reduction and +6% received healing increased


The filler talents you'd have to take in order to get to PoI really outweigh it's benefits, I think. Plus it's looking like Protection Paladins will be speccing it to get into the third tier (unless they go with Guardian's Favor or Imp. HoJ over it), which leaves us speccing into Retribution as long as there's one Prot in the raid.

Denounce seems like a strong place to put a single point if you're going with a conviction build


Denounce would be good, if we had talent modifiers that brought Exorcism to a reliable crit ratio (over 50%). All of our crit modifiers are applied to Holy Shock, Holy Light and Word of Glory - raising their crit chance by 12%, 15% and 12%, respectively. It would be much more reliable, and much more beneficial to the raid (even thought we aren't supposed to be worrying as much about globals this expansion) to use a healing spell over a damage spell to stack Conviction. Plus, assuming we will crit at least three times every 10 seconds, we'll have three Conviction stacks the entire fight.

#44 levk

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 09:35 PM

The way I read PoI tooltip is: YOU take 3% less damage and YOUR heals are 6% better. If you guys are reading EVERYONE'S heals are 6% better then that's a mandatory buff and at least two other classes should have it.

#45 frmorrison

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 09:50 PM

The way I read PoI tooltip is: YOU take 3% less damage and YOUR heals are 6% better. If you guys are reading EVERYONE'S heals are 6% better then that's a mandatory buff and at least two other classes should have it.


The intent is to make everyone's healing effects to become 6% better, the damage reduction is just the Paladin. Trees used to have this buff, but they lost it when ToL became a healing cooldown.

It is a good talent, but does it outweigh Ret (I guess this is one of those interesting decisions).

#46 Nnr

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:09 PM

As was said already, I think it will be actually a numbers game when you know itemization of the gear with which you're gonna approach raiding in Cataclysm - PoI subspec might win for fights where you have to be able withstand melee damage auras without healing yourself too much (Toughness wins here) and where you need a lot of CC (people do spec into Improved HoJ even now, for fights like Lady Deathwhisper).

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but given that Tree of Life is becoming a cooldown for Druids (45 sec on a 5 minute cooldown or something like that) and Tree of Life Aura will be gone, PoI might outweigh Ret as a general-purpose buff, if it will indeed increase everyone's healing by 6%,

#47 Palados

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:49 PM

It depends on the number of healers. For 10mans it will be not that good compared to 25mans in absolute healing done increase. If you have 2 healers, than ret subspec might give more absolute gains compared to prot subspec (assuming crit rarely overheals like Bliz promises and taking into account our mastery that favors crit).

#48 Noules

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 10:53 PM

Tower of Radiance doesn't look so awesome after I looked closer at a tooltip - it means you have to directly heal your beacon target, which I hardly do right now.


This would likely depend somewhat on whether or not the AoE heals count. The wording on both Tower of Radiance and Beacon of Light are unclear (well, it's actually quite clear - I suppose whether or not the wording is actually the intent is what's unclear). If it works with the AE heals, it doesn't look quite so bad (3 charges every 45s or so, which in practice is probably worth about a Divine Favor).

Also, Tower of Radiance would give a reason to -always- keep up Beacon, even in situations with minimal raid damage. Beacon's cost is quite cheap as it is now (6%, same as HL); if you only have one target to heal, you might as well throw Beacon on that target and get free Holy Power and thus free healing. Even in encounters with significant raid damage, it would likely be beneficial to have an option to chain instant heals while moving (HS + Words on ToR Beacon = another Words? Plus any AE healing and free HL procs from HS also directed at Tor Beacon). Depending on the implementation, it could be an elegant way to get paladins out of the mindset of -never- healing the Beacon target, and instead making it quite situational.

#49 Palados

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 11:52 PM

Keep in mind that HS now puts a hot (as well as FoL on SS target). We might want to keep those on BL target anyway. It might be also benefitial to throw a few fols instead of doing nothing when damage is not high to have free big heal on demand. Just think about holy power as the way to conserve mana. This talent is also great for PvP.

P.S. Due to 50% reduction we might spam tank in heavy burst scenarios. Getting free heals that way is good for conserving mana and sustaining such a spam.

#50 Zaroua

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 07:04 AM

The heal over time effect from casting Flash of Light on a target with Sacred Shield is no longer part of any tooltip, nor has it been for a few builds now. At this point, it's safe to assume that the Flash of Light hot isn't making it in Cataclysm.

And the "datamined" Holy Shock heal over time effect is our T8 2pc bonus. There is no indication that Holy Shock is getting a HoT attached to it. In this case, it's safe to assume that Holy Shock is *NOT* getting a HoT attached to it. If it does, the whole situation can be figured out *AFTER* it's been implemented.

As far as Tower of Radiance goes, the ability is fairly underwhelming right now due to the following facts:

1) Word of Glory cast with 3 stacks of Holy Power heals for about 20% less than Holy Shock while also having 12% less chance to crit and not proc'ing Infusion of Light (which is currently bugged and still working off of Flash instead of HL) making it the second weakest single target heal we have behind Holy Light
2) Holy Light spam on non-Beacon targets is currently our bread and butter in terms of throughput and sustainability
3) There is no reason to directly heal the Beacon target (a tank) unless the tank is taking more damage than you can heal by spamming HL on the party or if the party is taking no damage
4) If you have to spam the tank because the tank damage is otherwise too high, Word of Glory will only serve as a mana saver, not a throughput tool
5) If you have the time to use Word of Glory to heal your Beacon target, then no one is really taking that much damage anyways or you're extremely strained for mana

All things considered, you only get a small amount of mana saved if you're actively spamming your target. In 5 and 10 man scenarios, this would be potentially worth the 3 points. But I can't see too many scenarios for a hard mode encounter where there is a prolonged absence of raid damage and extremely high tank damage going on, meaning the talent points would likely only be picked up for specific encounters. In other words: WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie or WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie.


Light of Dawn doesn't transfer healing done to the Beacon target. A Paladin who reached lvl83 could easily confirm the same for Healing Hands.
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#51 Renew

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 05:04 PM

I figured WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie was the default talent spec from initially looking at the talents. The Protection sub spec seems really underwhelming.

Currently Paladin healing feels the same... Though we have more tools, nothing has changed aside from introducing shock into our rotation.

The new cone heal talent "Light of Dawn" is really bad. I would almost consider skipping it. We'll see how the real content at 85 changes things.
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#52 frmorrison

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 07:08 PM

The point of the talent that gives Holy Power from healing your Beacon is that during a lull in healing, you can save up some HP and use Word of Glory when things get more active. It seems like the % chance of gaining HP needs to go up.
If Cone of Healing is hard to use, they can adjust the range of the cone. Age of Conan had a Cone of healing spell that worked decently.

I didn't expect the Beacon to get healing from Light of Dawn or Healing Hands, because those aren't direct heals (similar to GoHL).

#53 Renew

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 08:21 PM

Gaining Holy Power currently seems really quick and easy, almost everything gives you a charge. The max charges you can have is 3.

It takes 1 charge of Holy Power to cast Word of Glory (though a 3 stack means the WoG will heal for more).
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#54 Zaroua

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 12:04 AM

The point of the talent that gives Holy Power from healing your Beacon is that during a lull in healing, you can save up some HP and use Word of Glory when things get more active. It seems like the % chance of gaining HP needs to go up.


From my tests, it looks like 3/3 Tower of Radiance is 100% chance to generate Holy Power and Holy Shock is also 100% for both healing and offense. Holy Shock also generates 2 Holy Power when cast on your Beacon target with 3/3 Tower of Radiance.
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#55 Noules

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 06:45 AM

From my tests, it looks like 3/3 Tower of Radiance is 100% chance to generate Holy Power and Holy Shock is also 100% for both healing and offense. Holy Shock also generates 2 Holy Power when cast on your Beacon target with 3/3 Tower of Radiance.


Does Word of Glory give you Holy Power with Tower of Radiance? I would assume it does based on the wording.

If so, ToR's most important use might be throughput healing while moving (3WoG + HS = another 3WoG, plus self-sustaining 1WoG spam) or better-than-free healing (1WoG spam while regaining mana with melee swings). Perhaps the scaling makes 1WoG not really a viable option in either case (though in the latter it costs you nothing besides the GCDs).

#56 Zaroua

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 11:34 AM

Does Word of Glory give you Holy Power with Tower of Radiance? I would assume it does based on the wording.

If so, ToR's most important use might be throughput healing while moving (3WoG + HS = another 3WoG, plus self-sustaining 1WoG spam) or better-than-free healing (1WoG spam while regaining mana with melee swings). Perhaps the scaling makes 1WoG not really a viable option in either case (though in the latter it costs you nothing besides the GCDs).


Word of Glory proc's Holy Power when used in conjunction with Tower of Radiance. With the change to Healing Light, Word of Glory is quite powerful now, making my earlier statements obsolete.
Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory

#57 Nätion

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 02:28 PM

So, essentially, with WoG, and ToR, you could WoG the beacon target and follow it up with a HS, and be ready to WoG/HS again soon after and repeat? Depending in HS's cost, this could be some decent cheap healing, especially while moving. If so, Something like: WoG->HS->DoL->HH->WoG->HS should provide decent healing and good mobility, a welcome change of pace.

#58 Palados

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 05:44 AM

In the latest build Speed of light 'sprint' effect duration was nerfed (as expected). And a new talent was added:

Last Word (Tier 2) *New* - Gives your Word of Glory a 30/60% increased critical chance when used on targets with 35% or less health.


That should bring the crit chance to 100% for decent geared pally, I think. Together with our mastery it might be 'the' spell for oh-shit moments and will surely strengthen our niche as tank healers.

This is a nice change as well:

Protector of the Innocent is now a Tier 1 Talent. Down from Tier 2. Now Increases your healing by 1/2/3% on allies affected by Devotion Aura and increases the damage of your Retribution Aura by 20/40/60%.



#59 Nnr

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 10:55 AM

While in the first place I was very happy that Protector of the Innocent is now down to tier 1 in Protection, the effect it gives was pretty much nerfed (down from +6% to +3% healing). Also, it now increases +3% healing on everyone affected by Devotion Aura (any Devotion Aura, by looking at the tooltip), so there's no problem if Prot Paladins start speccing into it. With Prot Paladin refusing to spec into it, you can consider something like 31/3/7, while if you ignore ToR as a talent that nerfs your healing outside burn phases, where 50% transfer with Beacon might not be enough, build with Ret subspec would probably look something like 31/0/10 or similar.

Not sure what is the status of ToR right now and what generates Holy Power, but given that WoG is a very viable (and free) heal, you might consider taking points off Ret tree and putting them in ToR.

#60 Charybdis

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 11:22 AM

While in the first place I was very happy that Protector of the Innocent is now down to tier 1 in Protection, the effect it gives was pretty much nerfed (down from +6% to +3% healing). Also, it now increases +3% healing on everyone affected by Devotion Aura (any Devotion Aura, by looking at the tooltip), so there's no problem if Prot Paladins start speccing into it. With Prot Paladin refusing to spec into it, you can consider something like 31/3/7, while if you ignore ToR as a talent that nerfs your healing outside burn phases, where 50% transfer with Beacon might not be enough, build with Ret subspec would probably look something like 31/0/10 or similar.

Not sure what is the status of ToR right now and what generates Holy Power, but given that WoG is a very viable (and free) heal, you might consider taking points off Ret tree and putting them in ToR.


With the current talents Prot is most likely to take at least two points in Protector of the Innocent given Improved Hammer of Justice likely won't be worthwhile for PVE. Protector also loses against Conviction's newly added +healing granting a possible 9% extra healing for 30 seconds after the last crit. With Divine Favor we're guaranteed at least one crit a minute translating to 50% uptime on a Conviction's baseline 3%. A build such as 33/0/8 seems to maximize our potential healing with the current setup.




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