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The Way of the Sword: Retribution in Cataclysm


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#1 malthrin

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 02:29 PM

This thread is the home for Cataclysm discussion about the Ret tree and dps specs in general. I'll keep this post updated with relevant links to blue posts and other previews as they become available. Constructive criticism is fine; whining will be infracted.

Here's what we know so far:
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Cataclysm Class Preview: Paladin

New Paladin Spells

Blinding Shield (level 81): Causes damage and blinds all nearby targets. This effect might end up only damaging those facing the paladin’s shield, in a manner similar to Eadric the Pure's ability Radiance in Trial of the Champion. The Holy tree will have a talent to increase the damage and critical strike chance, while the Protection tree will have a talent to make this spell instant cast. 2-second base cast time. Requires a shield.

Healing Hands (level 83): Healing Hands is a new healing spell. The paladin radiates heals from him or herself, almost like a Healing Stream Totem. It has a short range, but a long enough duration that the paladin can cast other heals while Healing Hands remains active. 15-second cooldown. 6-second duration.

Guardian of Ancient Kings (level 85): Summons a temporary guardian that looks like a winged creature of light armed with a sword. The visual is similar to that of the Resurrection spell used by the paladin in Warcraft III. The guardian has a different effect depending on the talent spec of the paladin. For Holy paladins, the guardian heals the most wounded ally in the area. For Protection paladins, the guardian absorbs some incoming damage. For Retribution paladins, it damages an enemy, similar to the death knight Gargoyle or the Nibelung staff. 3-minute cooldown. 30-second duration (this might vary depending on which guardian appears).


  • Crusader Strike will be a core ability for all paladins, gained at level 1. We think the paladin leveling experience is hurt by not having an instant attack. Retribution will be getting a new talent in its place that either modifies Crusader Strike or replaces it completely.
  • Blessing of Might will provide the benefit of Wisdom as well. If you have two paladins in your group, one will do Kings on everyone and the other will do Might on everyone. There should be much less need, and ideally no need, to provide specific buffs to specific classes.
  • We want to ease off the defensive capabilities of Retribution and Holy paladins slightly. We think the powerful paladin defenses have been one of the things holding Retribution paladins back, especially in Arenas. One change we’re considering is lowering Divine Shield’s duration by a couple of seconds. Having said that, Retribution does pretty well in Battlegrounds, and Battlegrounds will be a much bigger focus in Cataclysm since they can provide the best PvP rewards. Furthermore, the healing environment of Cataclysm is going to be different such that a paladin may not be able to fully heal themselves during the duration of Divine Shield to begin with, so this may not be a problem.
  • We feel Retribution paladins need one more mechanic which involves some risk of the player pushing the wrong button, making the rotation a bit less forgiving. In addition, we want to add to this spec more PvP utility. Right now the successes of the Retribution paladin in PvP seem to be reduced to either doing decent burst damage, or just being good at staying alive.


World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> #BlizzChat Developer Chat on Twitter -- 7.16
7/16/2010 - Dual Resource System Looks like it's kind of like combo points?

Q: What is the goal when re-designing the paladin class? How do you plan to change rotations, talents, etc?
A. All of the paladin specializations will make use of a new resource called Holy Power. Holy Power accumulates from using Crusader Strike, Holy Shock, and some other talents. Holy Power can be consumed to augment a variety of abilities, including:
An instant mana-free heal: Word of Glory
A buff to increase holy damage done: Inquisition
A massive physical melee attack for Retribution paladins: Templar’s Verdict
Holy Shield’s duration is now extended by Holy Power
Divine Storm’s damage is now increased by Holy Power

Q: Can you give us a sneak peek at one or two of the new Retribution abilities or talents?
A. Templar’s Verdict: An instant weapon attack that causes a percentage of weapon damage. Consumes all applications of Holy Power to increase damage dealt:

1 Holy Power: 55% Weapon Damage
2 Holy Power: 125% Weapon Damage
3 Holy Power: 225% Weapon Damage


World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Cataclysm Class & Mastery Systems Update
7/21/2010 - NEW TALENT TREES! WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie
Retribution signature abilities, gained at level 10:

Paladin - Retribution
A righteous crusader who judges and punishes opponents with weapons and Holy magic.
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization
Divine Storm
Sheath of Light
Divine Purpose


Expect the above to change:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker | Retribution Paladin's: Whats your opinion?

Divine Storm is a big deal because Retribution paladins get it at level 10. You'll get a new bottom o' the tree talent.

After further reflection, we don't think Divine Storm makes a good level 10 Ret ability. It really wants to be an AE attack, and it's just hard to make an AE attack a signature ability usable in as many situations as a signature attack deserves to be.

Divine Storm will probably go back into the talent tree. It won't be the 31-point though. Both the 31-point and the 10 ability need to have more single-target use. That means something like 3 new abilities for Retribution and several new or modified talents on top of that. Crazy.


It's okay in practice, but really we're trying to have different rotations for single vs. multi-target fights, so it doesn't really help with that problem.


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#2 malthrin

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 02:36 PM

Since the NDA has been lifted, here's a comprehensive list of Retribution relevant changes in the Cataclysm closed beta that I've been able to observe so far. Retribution's proper Cataclysm talent and ability revamp hasn't occurred yet, although I would expect it within the next month.

Consecration

  • Can now crit at 150% damage. Uses spell crit table.
  • Damage calculation (per tick) has been decreased from 4% of AP and SP to 2% of AP and SP.
  • Duration has been increased from 8 seconds to 15 seconds. Cooldown remains 8 seconds.
Crusader Strike
  • Crusader Strike is now a baseline ability.
  • Damage calculation has been increased from 75% to 100% of weapon damage.
  • Improved Crusader Strike increases the damage done by 10%. Presumably a placeholder; the talent is broken/bugged and no effect on Crusader Strike damage when talented.
Divine Storm
  • Damage calculation has been decreased from 110% to 55% of weapon damage.
  • No longer procs seals.
  • The target cap of 4 has been removed; now can hit an unlimited amount of targets.
Exorcism
  • Damage calculation and cooldown are unchanged relative to live.
Hammer of Wrath
  • Damage calculation and cooldown are unchanged relative to live.
Hand of Reckoning
  • Damage calculation and cooldown are unchanged relative to live.
  • Can now proc seals. Presumably a bug.
Holy Shock
  • Holy Shock is now a baseline ability.
  • Damage currently scales with 43% of SP and 0% of AP; 6 second cooldown.
  • Healing Light (Tier 2 talent, Holy tree) now increases the damage of Holy Shock by 4/8/12%.
  • Sanctified Light (increases Holy Shock critical strike chance by 5/10/15%) has been moved from Tier 5 Holy to Tier 4 Holy. At level 85 it may be a viable DPS talent if the Retribution tree remains bare bones.
Holy Wrath
  • Damage calculation and cooldown are unchanged relative to live.
Holy Vengeance
  • Can now crit at 150% damage. Uses melee crit table.
  • Damage calculation is unchanged relative to live.
Judgement
  • Seals of the Pure now increases the damage of Judgement of Command/Light/Wisdom/Justice.
  • Sanctified Light (increases Judgement critical strike by chance 5/10/15%) has been moved from Tier 5 Holy to Tier 4 Holy. At level 85 it may be a viable DPS talent if the Retribution tree remains bare bones.
  • The Judgement of Light healing debuff has been decreased from 2% to 1% of maximum HP.
Seals
  • Seals of the Pure now increases the damage of Seal of Command.
  • Divine Storm no longer procs seals.
Righteous Vengeance
  • Can now crit at 150% damage. Uses melee crit table.
  • Damage calculation is unchanged relative to live.
General
  • All partial resists on spells have been removed.
  • Swift Retribution is now identical to Windfury or Icy Talons (20% melee and ranged haste.) All 3% haste buffs have been eliminated.
  • Vindication and all other AP debuffs now decrease physical damage taken by 10%.
  • Heart of the Crusader and all other 3% crit debuffs are slated for removal.
  • Blessing of Might has been merged with Blessing of Wisdom. All static AP buffs have been eliminated. Provides 10% AP and 249 MP5. One cast now buffs all party/raid members.
  • Blessing of Kings now increases AGI, INT, STA, and STR by 5% and all magical resistances by 214. One cast now buffs all party/raid members.
  • Fire, Frost, and Shadow Auras have been merged into a single Resistance Aura. Doesn't stack with Blessing of Kings' resistance component.
  • Retribution Aura provides 40% melee haste while all other auras provide 20% melee haste when Swift Retribution is talented. Presumably a bug.
  • Dragonkin has been added as an additional race for the conditional portion of the Crusade talent.

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#3 Wrathblood

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 05:48 PM

Interesting that they are effectively making ret 2piece t9 baseline. Since this was a fairly substantial boost to the value of Crit, I'm curious how they end up balancing it from a stat-valuation standpoint.

#4 Nätion

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 10:27 PM

It's more than just the 2pc t9 bonus tho, it should be a really boon to the relative value of crit, ceteris paribus, of course. But I doubt everything else will be the same.

Seems like they're just doing it across the board for all spells/abilities for all classes. This could easily be countered by a larger amount of critical strike rating needed per percentage of critical strike, relative to stat values.

#5 Odinage

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 08:28 AM

Sanctified Light (increases Holy Shock critical strike chance by 5/10/15%) has been moved from Tier 5 Holy to Tier 4 Holy. At level 85 it may be a viable DPS talent if the Retribution tree remains bare bones.


This is going to be unlikely with the recent announcements regarding 31-point trees. I would imagine the 31 point talent in Ret will be worth going for which will only leave 14 points for another tree (at the very most), which isn't enough to get a 4th tier talent in another tree.

#6 Zalinda

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 10:11 AM

This is going to be unlikely with the recent announcements regarding 31-point trees. I would imagine the 31 point talent in Ret will be worth going for which will only leave 14 points for another tree (at the very most), which isn't enough to get a 4th tier talent in another tree.


Baring changes on how the trees will work to announced (see the 'Getting down to the grit' post, under the 'to recap' heading): You will HAVE to spend 31 points in ret before you can even spec into the other trees. So unless the 31pointer is really 'meh', there is no reason not to take it. Part of the new design it to move away from hybrid/split specs, Such as some of the weird 20/20/21 or 36/25/0 or so you can find now.

Since we'll have 41 points at 85, this means that after spending the mandatory 31 in the ret tree, you'll have at most 10 points to spend anywhere you want. You can spend those in more ret talents, or some points in holy and/or prot.

#7 Fiola

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 07:10 PM

For the Consecration change, what happens if you cast 2 Consecrations (same player) in the same spot? Will enemies take 1x or 2x damage?


For BoK's resist component - I'd assume the resistance value scales with level? Or did they change how resistance works?

#8 Zurm

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 07:20 PM

For the Consecration change, what happens if you cast 2 Consecrations (same player) in the same spot? Will enemies take 1x or 2x damage?


Only one can be up at a time. If you recast it, it will remove the original. Also of note, as I mentioned in the now-locked Cataclysm thread, there is a consecrate icon next to your character frame with a timer in beta. If you right click this icon, the consecrate disappears (this isn't properly implemented currently in beta; right now the graphic disappears but the damage/effect remains).

For BoK's resist component - I'd assume the resistance value scales with level? Or did they change how resistance works?


Like all spells in Cataclysm, this ability will scale with level. It will be equivalent and mutually exclusive with Mark of the Wild.
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#9 Fiola

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 07:50 PM

Thanks for the quick response. Sorry for duplicating a question from the other thread.
http://elitistjerks....din_changes/p5/

Haven't read these forums for a while, and didn't think to look for another thread on Cataclysm Paladin changes.


I like how with the current talent changes (Healing Light, SotP) it seems Ret/Holy might be the raid DPS spec and Ret/Prot would probably be the PvP/utility spec.

Another question for someone in the Cata beta: How does Ret off-healing feel with the changes to FoL/HL and the new slow heal? Am curious how the HPS/HPM per cast compare to a Holy spec, and whether the dynamics of Ret healing have changed much from WotLK.

#10 frmorrison

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 08:37 PM

I like how with the current talent changes (Healing Light, SotP) it seems Ret/Holy might be the raid DPS spec and Ret/Prot would probably be the PvP/utility spec.

Another question for someone in the Cata beta: How does Ret off-healing feel with the changes to FoL/HL and the new slow heal? Am curious how the HPS/HPM per cast compare to a Holy spec, and whether the dynamics of Ret healing have changed much from WotLK.


Yah, "boring" talents like 15% strength/10% int are likely going away, so holy will likely have the outside Ret dps talents. Early Prot is likely going to keep the PvP talents.

FoL is less efficient in Cata, so Ret will not be able to throw as many heals as before. SS is 30 minutes, so that is nice to help out with tank healing (assuming no other Pally). I think the new healing spell (Divine Light) is going to be a Holy talent. It is going to be the slow, mana efficient big heal.

#11 Charmin

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 02:09 AM

Yah, "boring" talents like 15% strength/10% int are likely going away, so holy will likely have the outside Ret dps talents. Early Prot is likely going to keep the PvP talents.

FoL is less efficient in Cata, so Ret will not be able to throw as many heals as before. SS is 30 minutes, so that is nice to help out with tank healing (assuming no other Pally). I think the new healing spell (Divine Light) is going to be a Holy talent. It is going to be the slow, mana efficient big heal.


FoL is very mana heavy, but I actually like it a lot more. Basically takes the place of what Holy Light does now for us except that we can instant cast FoL. Very, very handy for me so far. Even though the other classes I have come across while leveling have way more burst and damage potential using FoL in conjunction with AoW and Holy Shock have kept me up long enough to get a kill.

I really just can't wait until the next build. It can't come fast enough.

#12 flyingtoastr

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 05:06 AM

Looks like they're going really full-bore with the "DS becomes an AoE ability only".

After further reflection, we don't think Divine Storm makes a good level 10 Ret ability. It really wants to be an AE attack, and it's just hard to make an AE attack a signature ability usable in as many situations as a signature attack deserves to be.

Divine Storm will probably go back into the talent tree. It won't be the 31-point though. Both the 31-point and the 10 ability need to have more single-target use. That means something like 3 new abilities for Retribution and several new or modified talents on top of that. Crazy.

As you can see, we're still iterating a lot on paladins. Our lack of communication is because things are changing quickly, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to share it all until things feel a little more stable.


Source

#13 Roywyn

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 10:22 AM

General
* All partial resists on spells have been removed.

Does this apply to all spells? All classes? Or just holy damage (since Holy Resistance is not an actual stat, and level-based partial resists are quite a mess in many regards)? Or just paladins? And has that been verified with mobs above your level and orange mobs as well?

It does sound like a large change and I haven't heard anything else about that at all, hence I'm asking.
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#14 Durinix

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 01:30 PM

Regarding the DS thing, I was right but for the wrong reasons... (old thread) http://elitistjerks....p6/#post1694663.

This is a great change. It's a shame that it still is a talent but on the up side, two new single target dps abilities! I'm guessing that this is the end of consecration and DS in our single target rotation.

3 new abilities?? So the 31 point talent is one, the specialisation is another, what's the third GC! I hope that he's not talking about Guardian of Ancient Kings or the interrupt.

Given that we'll now have an actual AoE rotation, maybe they're going to change/remove SoC. The current design feels very cleavy (making it more likely that they're going to remove it in my opinion). DS definitly feels like it should be a 11 or 21 point talent. Maybe this new ability will be other one. I like that design, 1 new attack every 20 levels (one at 10, 30, 50 and 70).

#15 Daeluin

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 05:39 PM

3 new abilities?? So the 31 point talent is one, the specialisation is another, what's the third GC! I hope that he's not talking about Guardian of Ancient Kings or the interrupt.


I would imagine that GC is referring to Holy Shock.

#16 smashbro

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 09:06 AM

I don't see it anywhere else on the thread, but I believe it has been stated that they plan to have haste lower the CD of retribution paladin abilities.

#17 Soulblazer

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 10:12 AM

I don't see it anywhere else on the thread, but I believe it has been stated that they plan to have haste lower the CD of retribution paladin abilities.


What you are talking about is what the ret mastery was supposed to be in earlier preview of the mastery system. However the mastery got changed in +% Holy Damage.
It has been supposed that if haste in cata should somehow affect resouces regen (eg rage, energy, mana), it may affect the CD of judgement, as Judgement of The Wise is our main regen ability. But that's pretty old story, much has changed since then.

#18 smashbro

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 10:40 AM

What you are talking about is what the ret mastery was supposed to be in earlier preview of the mastery system. However the mastery got changed in +% Holy Damage.
It has been supposed that if haste in cata should somehow affect resouces regen (eg rage, energy, mana), it may affect the CD of judgement, as Judgement of The Wise is our main regen ability. But that's pretty old story, much has changed since then.


What I'm referencing is fairly recent. Let me see if I can find the source.

Edit: I can't find it, but I swear I'm not crazy!

They've said that they want haste to let you "do stuff faster," and just getting more mana regen would fail to accomplish this. Logically, the only way for a ret to "do stuff faster" is lower our cooldowns... I know I saw some sort of official post on it somewhere... eh...

#19 Entropie

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 10:49 AM

Haste - Haste will become more attractive for melee classes by allowing them to recover resources such as energy and runes more quickly. Our intention is for Haste to let you "do stuff" more often.

<snip>

Our plan is to make haste good for all classes, even warriors. The goal is to make all the stats that appear on your gear attractive.


Considering these two quotes (page 1 and 57, they will do something with it I imagine. Granted, the posts are from march, but I believe their intention is to make the 'extra' stats about as attractive. In the case of warriors and rogues(fdruids), having more resources directly converts into doing more damage. As this is not the case for retribution paladins, we are CD-limited, they will -at least try- to make haste worthwhile.
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#20 smashbro

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 11:09 AM

Okay, I might've seen it here: The Light and How to Swing It: New talent system changes for melee paladins

One thing that they've said they have wanted to do for retribution is give us a way to lower our cooldowns based on haste. I'm not talking about our global cooldown, but our actual ability cooldowns. This might be a way to bake it into the spec without it being available to either protection or holy.

I know its not exactly an official source...




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