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The Way of the Sword: Retribution in Cataclysm


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#41 Durinix

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:41 AM

Blizzard mentioned they'd like Haste to also increase our mana regeneration. If that's the case they might make Divine Plea benefit from haste too or something to that effect. We can be pretty sure they'll try to balance things such that we won't be ignoring haste like we are armor penetration right now even if it's indirect like meaning more mana for later/continuous stream of it.


Haste affecting mana regen is only useful if we're designed to be mana constrained rather than cooldown constrained. At this point I'm not ruling anything out. There's too many things about our class (ret and holy, not so much prot) that don't line up with blizzard's design goals. They're also iterating on our design fairly rapidly (as indicated by the DS change and the recent holy comment).

If they do decide to go with mana management, then I'd fully expect an attack power to mana conversion (probably 1-2 mana per AP). If we're meant to be holy warriors (which is once interpretation of GC's comment of we're warriors which give up mobility and bleeds for heals and holy damage) then, in my opinion, this feels like the right change. Should we feel more like a melee caster than a melee? Maybe that's the answer to the mobility question as well. We should want to be in melee range but if we're not, we could still do our job (at a reduced effectiveness). Something like we have a mix of ranged and melee holy damage abilities. The ranged stuff would be instant cast when in melee (or reasonably close to melee) but has a cast time outside this range. The mechanics are in the game to do this (Art of War but instead of a buff check, its a range check).

The reason I say this is that holy is meant to be able to solo effectively enough that you could farm/level with a holy spec. Holy really needs some spamable damage ability if it's going to solo, preferably ranged as holy really feels like a caster. Giving something like this to all paladins kills about three birds with one stone (prot ranged threat, holy solo, ret mobility).

The closest to Ret is Enhance, here is how haste affects their mana regeneration.
Primal Wisdom - Your melee attacks have a 20/40% chance to immediately restore 35% of your base mana.

Shaman have some spells that do decent damage but are mana inefficient such as the AoE moves Fire Nova and sometimes Chain Lightning is better than Lightning Bolt on a single target, so with more haste they should be able to use the higher damage/mana inefficient attacks, so that would be interesting to see if the two new Ret abilities follow that style.


Actually, removing the cooldown off exorcism (and buffing the damage quite a bit - about a 4k nuke in holy gear and 6k in ret gear at the current content level and bump the mana up to about 18% of base) would do this. Art of war is our maelstrom weapon equivalent. More haste would mean more exorcism procs. Crit and haste would play off eachother (more crit makes more haste valuable and vice versa). Holy dps would be about 4k (with good haste, exorcism has about a 1.0-1.15 second cast) giving holy good soloability while Art of War becomes something we have to watch for and want to use. The more I think about it, the more I think that this is likely.

Whatever design they choose to make for us, we will be viable. We will see improvements from all stats which affect melee damage that make it worth the itemisation. That doesn't mean that we won't prefer one over the other but we won't see things like crit being twice as good as haste. We will be fun to play... well, I hope we'll be fun to play.

An interesting question is what is likely to remain in our talent trees, given blizzard's design goals? Here's my opinion:
  • Art of War
  • Righteous Vengeance
  • Divine Storm
  • Vindication
  • Vengeance? (Not completely certain)
  • Swift Retribution (will probably have some other bonus attached as well so it's worth taking if we're duplicating raid buffs)
  • Replenishment (I'd say the self mana part of Judgements of the Wise will be a passive given at lvl 10)
  • Sanctified Wrath
  • Eye for an Eye (Maybe, it's an interesting talent but isn't exactly useful, maybe if it's changed into a reflection?)

Everything else is either passive damage, a cleave (Seal of Command), pvp talent (we'll probably keep just one with a modified Pursuit of Justice being the likely candidate), a boring talent (eg. Imp Judgement) or buff to a buff. That's about 20 points using the current design and none of these are 5 point talents (so it's likely to stay at 20ish points). Sheath of Light (or similar) will be a specialisation passive (we probably lose the hot part).

We still need half a tree. Some of which will be things affecting our active specialisation ability, an end of tree ability and some synergy talents but the rest will be entirely new ret design.

#42 flyingtoastr

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:53 AM

From the MMOC datamining it seems Holy Shock will not be baseline, but will instead be the Holy specialization ability.

Right now they have the following listed for the ret benefits:
-Divine Storm (which GC said was going to be replaced)
-Two Handed Weapon Spec
-Sheath of Light
-Divine Purpose

More info is incoming.

#43 Durinix

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 02:02 AM

Divine purpose appears to be a mana regen ability and not the current divine purpose Divine Purpose - Spells - Sigrie. I'm guessing placeholder numbers

#44 frmorrison

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 02:18 AM

From the MMOC datamining it seems Holy Shock will not be baseline, but will instead be the Holy specialization ability.

Right now they have the following listed for the ret benefits:
-Divine Storm (which GC said was going to be replaced)
-Two Handed Weapon Spec
-Sheath of Light
-Divine Purpose

More info is incoming.


I think Bibi may have made a mistake, GC already said that Divine Storm is going to be a talented ability. I assume Divine Purpose is similar to the Enhance mana regen ability on autoattacks. The other three seem fine for the abilities you get at level 10.

There was another note that looked interesting: Judgement - Now also prevents them from fleeing.

#45 Durinix

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 02:22 AM

DS being a talent again probably didn't make it into this build. I'd expect that we'll see that change in the next build (which means that we won't see one of our new abilities).

Edit: Provided divine purpose is correct, I'd say that this means that haste probably won't increase our mana regen. Why add a second knob to fiddle with our mana?

#46 flyingtoastr

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 02:34 AM

Some other minor updates from the Nihilum digging. Note that they only have the Holy changes up so the list is definitely going to get longer once ret and maybe prot are done.

-Exorcism now has a 10 second cooldown (down from 15).
-Cleanse has officially been changed to no longer dispel magic baseline (a Holy talent restores this function)
-Judgements seem to have a built in JoJustice effect now

E: Talent Calculator seems to be up.

There are some really interesting choices for sub-speccing now. JotP is within reach now (an extra 9% melee haste) but you won't be able to pick up full Seals of the Pure (which was moved to Prot). The ret tree is pretty dull right now, nothing to change rotations in yet. Some fun new talents and changes though (E4E useful for PvE!!!!).

#47 Durinix

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 03:29 AM

I'm taking those trees with a very large grain of salt. There's way too many things in there that are downright wrong (contradicting a blue post). However, of the new stuff:
  • Exorcism with a 6s cooldown when talented - Looks like we'll be using a lot more Art of War procs.
  • Hammer of Wrath with wings - very nice.
  • Seals of Retribution - I like this change. Considering that being able to take some pressure of the healers in cata is going to be important, this allows us to have a lower penalty for switching to SoL.
  • I can see E4E being very useful to a holy paladin. I wonder if it puts your Judgement on cooldown if the cooldown is up (or resets the cooldown).
  • I'm guessing that crusade still ends up being about 3% extra damage overall.
  • Fanaticism looks like it's been copy and pasted and is there just to fill a gap in the tree. If not, we can go into holy for a ridiculous 33% extra crit on judgement. In fact, that entire tier looks a little bare.
  • Divine Retribution. Cool name.

I'm not sure that we're going to want to spend more than about 6 points outside our tree for PvE. Our tree is incomplete, so this is somewhat speculation, but I'd say that it's likely that there's going to be about 31 points in personal dps talents and the rest are raid buffs and other utility. So we have to choose between the buffs (awesome if someone else brings them) or the shiny 2 tier talents (well, really just Judgements of the Pure).

Did the cooldown on CS go up or did prot just get a 2s cooldown CS that will hit nearly as hard as ours does?

Edit:

These are old talents. This is not the paladin revamp that we said was coming. Sorry, you'll just have to wait a little bit longer.

This is true. JoW was really only a big deal for hunters, shaman and paladins themselves, and those are all solvable in other ways.
(World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Paladin Changes: Build 12479)
Like I said, bag of salt.

I'm not so sure I agree with the JoW thing, but hey, as long as we don't overwrite other paladins judgements, I'd be happy.

#48 frmorrison

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 03:58 AM

The ret tree is pretty dull right now, nothing to change rotations in yet. Some fun new talents and changes though (E4E useful for PvE!!!!).


I don't know about dull, there is the Exorcism cooldown reduction to six seconds and you can use Hammer of Wrath while Wings is up, that changes some things around. Also Divine Storm is weaker than CS and likely HoW and Exorcism.
E4E may be nice for PvE, but that is hard to pickup. I had to drop Repent to get pure dps talents, going 3/3/35. I know the trees will change in future builds.

I'm not so sure I agree with the JoW thing, but hey, as long as we don't overwrite other paladins judgements, I'd be happy.


The changes to mana (Ret and Enhance get some passive ability to gain mana and hunters get focus) allows them to simplify the spell book by removing JoW.

#49 Glutton

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 03:58 AM

Judgments of the Just is actually a DPS talent. One point in it will allow seals to proc on Judgement of Vengeance/Corruption, or roughly a ~4% DPS increase in a single target situation. 6% spell/melee haste from JotP would be a ~2% DPS increase. Although it's possible that Blizzard will finally fix this Protection "bug" that's been present ever since I can remember.

JotJ's debuff effect would also contribute an additional proc chance on Judgement for mechanics like Shadowmourne shards and TAiaJ. The DPS contribution from these additional proc chances would be minor, but nevertheless real.

#50 flyingtoastr

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:05 AM

I don't know about dull, there is the Exorcism cooldown reduction to six seconds and you can use Hammer of Wrath while Wings is up, that changes some things around. Also Divine Storm is weaker than CS and likely HoW and Exorcism.
E4E may be nice for PvE, but that is hard to pickup. I had to drop Repent to get pure dps talents, going 3/3/35. I know the trees will change in future builds.


Dull wasn't quite the best word I suppose. More along the lines of "nothing to change our rotation from FCFS". Now, as it is with this current tree the priorities would change drastically. If Exorcism continues with it's current relative damage it would jump pretty far up the priority with the greatly reduced cooldown, while Divine Storm would fall quite a bit.

I've been able to work in E4E pretty easily, actually. Dropping Swift Retribution will be a no-brainer as it is right now - Shamans bring the same buff as a baseline class ability.

#51 Durinix

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:06 AM

Judgments of the Just is actually a DPS talent. One point in it will allow seals to proc on Judgement of Vengeance/Corruption, or roughly a ~4% DPS increase in a single target situation.


Am I looking at the same Judgements of the Just as you are? I'm seeing 1s more on Seal of Justice and melee speed reduction on judgement target.

Edit: Sorry, never mind, I see you're talking about a bug. not a feature.

#52 flyingtoastr

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:09 AM

Am I looking at the same Judgements of the Just as you are? I'm seeing 1s more on Seal of Justice and melee speed reduction on judgement target.


It's a bug with the current implementation of JotJ where the application of the debuff is counting as a melee swing (IIRC).

#53 frmorrison

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:16 AM

I've been able to work in E4E pretty easily, actually. Dropping Swift Retribution will be a no-brainer as it is right now - Shamans bring the same buff as a baseline class ability.


Since WoL doesn't track totem buffs very well (that I know of), it is hard to tell if you always are getting the totem buff (unless you have an Enhance), since the range is still 30 yards. I like getting buffing talents, but it should have a little "selfish" bonus (like DK's 5% haste on their version).

When JotJ is applied by Judgement, it procs an extra Seal hit. It is bug, but it always has been there.

#54 Durinix

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:25 AM

Hey Art of War is on Holy light now rather than Flash. It makes sense as it's now the cheaper of the two.

Divine Purpose looks like 2% of max mana per second. Nihilum - World of Warcraft. That's pretty much the same amount of mana per second as the current Judgements of the Wise 25% of base mana. I guess this makes sense as all the free judgements would have been extra mana (causing the same problem that saw SA go prot only).

#55 Jeh

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:46 AM

Don't get too happy about Eye for an Eye just yet, if its anything like the warrior Enrage talent then it'll be worthless as it does not proc from environmental damage.

Edit
Quote from GC on the change to warrior enrage, now a 2 point ability like eye for an eye:

Enrage procs on all damage (including raid AE damage). We also want Fury to be a viable PvP spec in any case.


So it might be really good on certain fights.

#56 Durinix

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:57 AM

Questions for someone with a beta invite. Does range matter on an Eye for an Eye judgement? Does it reset the cooldown or is it a free judgement? Are all our seals (minus command) still around and what (if any) changes have been made? Has the Judgements of the Just bug been fixed?

#57 Nätion

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 05:14 AM

Um... why does the prot tree look so much better than the ret tree for dps? Imp CS, HotR, AS, Sacred Oath, Imp Exo, subspec'd into the first two tiers of ret. Cons(if stationary) > Judge > HotR > CS spam, while having instant exo and HS along with AS while at range. Numbers still to be seen, but still....

#58 Glutton

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 05:17 AM

It's not fair to compare until we get our two new abilities. Retribution isn't going to look appealing with a big fat NYI as our final talent.

Although if they don't nerf Shield of Righteousness hard, then one handed Retribution is unfortunately going to be viable in PVE. It's currently more powerful than Judgement.

Edit: for those who don't have access to the beta, Shield of Righteousness now scales with static+100% AP rather than static+shield block value. Shield of Righteousness is Holy damage, so it scales with our Holy damage mastery. It also procs seals. All of which lead to some fairly ridiculous damage numbers as Retribution.

#59 Durinix

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 05:24 AM

Forget 1 handed retribution. 2 handed prot PvP is where it's at! http://talent.mmo-ch...0ffL9LLN,,12479

A no cooldown, 230% of weapon damage CS with all of prot's shiny survivability tools

And Instant cast exorcisms...

Edit: Actually, Ret anything.
http://talent.mmo-ch...hv2XENG9,,12479
No cooldown on CS at 230% weapon damage means that CS alone pulls around 8-10k dps with current gear. Add in melee, righteous vengeance and judgement procs and that's some serious no brainer dps.

#60 Zalinda

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 08:49 AM

Regarding FCFS:
I think it was already established that the 2T10 effect (DS reset) will be baked into ret somehow. Reducing exo CD to 6sec sort of has the same FCFS disturbing effect in a single target rotation. Not that exo resets at random, but using exo requires an AOW proc, which will require a small amount of attention to use. At 15sec cd now, Exo is pretty much a no brainer. The chances to NOT have aow up by the time exo comes of CD is pretty much zero, unless you've been using AOW procs for FOL. At 6sec CD, there is a small yet reasonable chance that AoW won't have procced yet. Enough to make paying attention to the aow proc matter.

There's some other things already planned to make Exo a more effective means for damage as it is now, which could very well bump Exo up in the priority. Mastery for more holy damage, no more partial spell resists etc. It could very well bump exo in front of DS for single target damage. Assuming we'll still want to be DSing on a single target.


With each round of changes coming out, I'm getting more of a confirmation that making us resource locked is indeed where we're going to. And it's probably the way to go as well provided we get a reasonable (not good) means to recover in a no-mana situation.
We can DP (on a 1Min cd), this might end up being haste related so more haste = more mana. making haste part of our means for faster recovery similar to rogues/warriors.
We have replenishment.
We have Judgement.

The above is now enough to keep us at a comfortable amount of mana while keeping a full rotation. it isn't unless you have 2T10 proc streaks and spamming DS that you risk of ooming.

With just a slightly higher mana cost on abilities however, we could very well end up being mana constrained. Spam brainless, and you run oom, forcing you into a low ability usage and low dps. Be smart, and NOT hit that mana intensive button that came off cd, so you can hit a better damage (or mana recovery) button a bit later and result in more damage overall. It may need some tweaks to get this model to work but it may be possible. Otoh, the hunter mana issue (trying to constain hunter DPS by regulating mana) that have been happening in wotlk and being changed to focus in cata may be a sign that trying to mana constrain a non-caster is a bad idea.




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