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[Elemental] Cataclysm changes collected (updated: 10/08/22)


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#41 Shokkina

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 09:47 AM

I got some ideas to solve the haste and scaling issues for elemental shaman.
It would be done through changing the way lava fows and lava surge work.

For lava surge the change is easy: give each thick of flame shock a 100% chance to reduce lava burst CD by a fixed amount of time.

For lava flows i would change it to work this way: "Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Lava Burst spell by a percentage equal to you spell crit %, and when your Flame Shock is dispelled your spell casting speed is increased by 30% for 6 sec.".

What this will give to elemental shaman?
Better scaling through haste, cause it will give the chance to cast more lava burst (as it is with the current implementation) but without random procs. I think 1 sec for each thick of FS could be a good amount.
Also "double lava burst" in pvp could make someone cry for nerf, just as it was back i vanilla for "double wf procs" with the current system.

Better scaling through crit, since it would affect lava burst damage.

Potential issues:
If the amount of haste goes "out of control" as in WotlK the rotation could end up being too much boring. Anyways assuming blizzard will avoid the same mistakes, is should not happen in cataclysm.
For pvp dispelling FS would gimp elemental shaman more than now, but having a 30% haste in cataclsym should be even more powerful than now because of less haste spread through talents and gear.
It's worth to note that both these problems exist with the current cataclysm implementation.

Lava burst could do more burst than now only when we will reach an amount of crit > 24%.
While this is true we have to keep in mind that all increases in % to crits are additive(just like many increases in this game) so the overall increase in damage is at best half effective as one could think(if you go from 200% to 250% you increase your damage output by 25%) and again, since crit should be kept at lower levels this expansion, this would not be really a problem.

I left this game a couple months ago, but it looks like i can't leave the "theorycrafting world of warcraft" XD

#42 Throktar

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 08:03 AM

Sorry I can't find the blue post to refer to but this is whats currently on mmo:

Elemental
Totemic Wrath is now a Tier 4 talent, down from Tier 5.

  • Unrelenting Storm is gone.
  • Fulmination (Tier 5) *New* - When you have more than 3 Lightning Shield charges active, your Earth Shock spell will consume any surplus charges, instantly dealing their total damage to the enemy target.
  • Rolling Thunder (Tier 4) *New* - When you deal damage with Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning while your Lightning Shield ability is active, you have a 30/60% chance to recover 1% of your mana and to generate an additional Lightning Shield charge, up to a maximum of 0/9 charges.


Assuming you are at 9 charges and use earth shock, I wonder how much each off these 6 consumed lightning shield charges will grant to the shock. Since earth shock does not benefit from haste it would add an element that only benefits from sp and crit.

I guess using earth shock whenever charges are filled up will become part of our rotation. Together with the rng of lava surge and the rng of the orb generation our rotation will become purely priority based.

I wonder if the lightning overload procs of lb and cl will also generate orbs. I think they should.

#43 Atren

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 09:07 AM

Sorry i can´t find the blue post to refer to but this is whats currently on mmo:


Elemental

Totemic Wrath is now a Tier 4 talent, down from Tier 5.

  • Unrelenting Storm is gone.
  • Fulmination (Tier 5) *New* - When you have more than 3 Lightning Shield charges active, your Earth Shock spell will consume any surplus charges, instantly dealing their total damage to the enemy target.
  • Rolling Thunder (Tier 4) *New* - When you deal damage with Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning while your Lightning Shield ability is active, you have a 30/60% chance to recover 1% of your mana and to generate an additional Lightning Shield charge, up to a maximum of 0/9 charges.


Assuming you are at 9 charges and use earthshock i wonder how much each off these 6 consumed lightning shield charges will grant to the shock.

I guess using earthshock whenever charges are filled up will become part of our rotation.

Together with the rng of lavasurge and the rng of the orb generation our rotation will become purely priority based.

Since earthshock does not benefit from haste it would add an element that only benefits from sp and crit.


While haste does not affect earthshock directly, it still would indirectly affect its damage by charging up shield faster.

#44 Keldion

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 02:00 PM

While haste does not affect earthshock directly, it still would indirectly affect its damage by charging up shield faster.


Haste affects Earth Shock in two subtle fashions.

As you have observed, LS will charge faster with a shaman hurling more bolts in a given period of time. Additionally, being an instant cast, the benefit of haste is applied to the global cooldown.

#45 Lucitron

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 04:39 PM

From PvE point of view, the Beta build 12803 locks Elemental firmly into a 34/7/0-build. There is 1 point that is slightly free. You can freely place it in a tier 1-3 talent, but it must be placed and it must be in the Elemental tree. If we should have more flexibility then the number of dps-increasing talents have to be reduced.

The problem, as I see it, is that most talents from tier 3 to tier 7 are good old fun talents that change our spell rotation and make it more interactive. I for one don't want them to remove any of these talents. However, the same good old fun talents are also the ones that eat so many talent points that we have only 7 points left to place outside the Elemental tree. If we wish to have flexibility, then logically some of the fun talents need to be changed, otherwise the only flexibility we will have is in tier 1-3 when we try to go through the tier 3 bottleneck.

To walk out on thin ice and throw out a solution, then one possibility is to remove Storm, Earth and Fire. The 60% damage increase to Flame Shock could easily be baked into Lava Flows. The rooting effect of Earthbind Totem is one of the stronger parts of the Storm, Earth and Fire talent. It could probably manage to be its very own talent.
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#46 Borninexile

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:27 PM

Just wanted to share some interesting information about what i tested today about Fulmination.

Posted Image

As you can see, as soon as i used Earth Shock, it did it's damage to the target and then the Fulmination hit me.

I know this is a bug, so i am not completely sure if the damage will stay the same. If the damage does stay the same, it could be a force to be reckoned with. How i tested this was went to a target dummy, dropped all my totems and cast until i had 9 stacks of lightning shield. I had 10 stacks of Mauradins Spyglass up also. The only buff that i was not able to have up was the ICC exalted ring buff. 9k non crits were hitting me, 10 on occasion, but when i had 400 extra spell power from the ring buff, the non crit damage went up to 12k damage to me from Fulmination.

I can give you more stats, spell power and tests when i get back tonight, but i thought i would share this with you.

Another thing people were discussing on the beta forums is the validity of us having to keep lighting shield up. There are almost 0 PVP uses for this, as people will target the Elemental Shamans first, therefore voiding us ever getting 9 stacks of lighting shield.

*Edit* typos.

#47 quiddity

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 10:26 AM

So with the new Fulmination/Rolling Thunder (RT) addition, I did some testing. For the purposes of the testing I didn't have Flametongue Weapon (FT) on or use Unleash Elements (UE). I basically just used a Flame Shock (FS) -> Lighting Shield (LS) x9 Earth Shock (ES) -> Lava Burst (LvB) -> Lighting Bolt (LB) priority. I also removed my Ashen Band of Endless Destruction, Dislodged Foreign Object and Muradin's Spyglass so as to not incur any deviations from RNG buffs.

First off, I was kind of worried about how this would affect our mana even though it didn't seem like it should, I tested a normal WotLK rotation with Water Shield (WS) against the above priority system, obviously with LS, and had nearly the same time until my mana pool was depleted. For the sake of the test I healed myself twice with Greater Healing Wave since Fulmination is hitting me and not the dummy in both tests for fairness. There was like a 3 second difference, so pretty inconsequential.

Since Fulmination was hitting me and not the dummy (I'm assuming this is a bug, if not...worst talent ever!) I added the ES and Fulmination damage for each (21 in my tests) hit. Over the course of testing I had 371 LB's and 99 LvB's. Note: this data includes both my LS and WS tests. Obviously, how many times you get to hit a full RT/Fulmination charge is going to be relatively RNG.

ES + Fulmination average: 10,982
LvB: 9893,13
LB: 5410.42

I was thinking about it and initially thought that they might tune the Fulmination damage down, but then reconsidered. We're going to hit full RT/Fulmination ES's less than LvB, so it would make sense that it could hit harder, although it is an instant cast and this is beta so things are prone to change.

In any event, it was annoying to keep track of with the default interface, but with addons helping you track things, it seems like it could be really fun. It also gives us a spell to use as we move if Spiritealker's Grace isn't up and we're on the move. We'd also be saving GCD by not refreshing WS during a fight since RT refreshes LS's time. The only other issue I ran into was clipping FS. This probably won't be such an issue when we can actually see the time left on our FS debuffs, but in these tests a few times FS fell off because I hit ES and the shared CD didn't let me get it back up in time. That'll be a risk, but assuming you can tell if a number is greater or less than five (5), you should be ok.

Link to the spreadsheet containing raw logs.

#48 Throktar

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 11:00 AM

It will be quite tricky in a few occasion when a full 9 LS stack earthshock will have priority over a lava surge lvb proc depending how the damage numbers finalise.

For PvP fulminating power would be a nice finishing move where you save the 9 stack of LS when a target is like below 20-15% and a heavy hitting instant is needed - might have its use in PvP.

#49 Moshne

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 08:31 PM

It will seldom, if ever, get to 9 in an any match that matters. Aside from being dispellable, you are almost always going to be getting peppered with damage that will reduce the number of charges you have. While they'll still be taking damage from those discharges, it won't be in a large burst. It wouldn't surprise me if we find ourselves unable to break even with the rate at which it discharges vs. charges in a PVP, or even in some PVE environments.

For those that are able to test it, have you been able to generate LS charges on consecutive Lightning Bolts? I'm wondering if it has any ICD similar to the Reign of Misery/Lightning Capacitor?

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#50 Throktar

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 08:56 PM

For our priority it would be interesting how many charges LS needs for earth shock to take precedence to casting lvb because at say 7 charges of LS ES does higher damage than lvb. In a scenario where the 6th LS orb just procced and we know that the 7th can not proc until ICD is over we would cast lvb and wait for the 7th LS orb to proc.

#51 quiddity

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 09:07 PM

There does not appear to be an ICD right now, although that is obviously subject to change. The fact it stacks up to nine (9) seems like an ICD would make it less appealing since its already once every two (2) or three (3) LvB's anyway. Although I guess its an instant so maybe its a useful filler regardless. If our damage is going to be scaled based on usage of this, it seems like they should avoid the ICD, but that's just my opinion.
8/22 03:13:28.812  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,0xF13079A8000063D5,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,403,"Lightning Bolt",0x8,9322,9321,8,0,0,0,1,nil,nil^M
8/22 03:13:28.896  SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,324,"Lightning Shield",0x8,BUFF^M
8/22 03:13:29.279  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,88765,"Rolling Thunder",0x1,322,0^M
8/22 03:13:30.513  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,0xF13079A8000063D5,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,403,"Lightning Bolt",0x8,4409,4408,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil^M
8/22 03:13:30.513  SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,324,"Lightning Shield",0x8,BUFF^M
8/22 03:13:30.948  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,88765,"Rolling Thunder",0x1,322,0

8/22 03:14:00.645  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,0xF13079A8000063D5,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,403,"Lightning Bolt",0x8,4466,4465,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil^M
8/22 03:14:00.645  SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,324,"Lightning Shield",0x8,BUFF^M
8/22 03:14:00.895  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,88765,"Rolling Thunder",0x1,321,0^M
8/22 03:14:02.280  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,0xF13079A8000063D5,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,403,"Lightning Bolt",0x8,4467,4466,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil^M
8/22 03:14:02.680  SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,324,"Lightning Shield",0x8,BUFF^M
8/22 03:14:03.080  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,0x01000000001258A9,"Phyltr",0x511,88765,"Rolling Thunder",0x1,321,0


#52 fhnhf

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 11:18 PM

Correct me if I am mistaken, but do we have the ability to earth shock at 35 yds? I beleive the talent that lengthens shocks applies only to flame shock thus effectively making us 20yd casters again.

#53 quiddity

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 11:54 PM

Well...25yd, but the point remains. Everything else is on a 40yd range, ES is at 25yd. It wouldn't be hard to include it into the range extending talent that FS gets. I'll speculate that its an oversight and that it'll get fixed, that is unless this is part of Blizzard's plan for us, but that seems unlikely.

[edit] Unleash Elements is also a 30y range, so if we end up using that to buff out LvB's, that hurts our range too.

#54 Zamir

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 11:57 PM

If you use Chain Lightning to hit several targets, each hit has its own chance to proc the LS orb. So CL hitting 3 targets can presently give you 3 orbs immediately. There's also no ICD between orb gains, which means that in theory it wouldn't be entirely impossible to quickly get more than 3 charges in PvP - it just wouldn't be very likely.

In around 30 LB overloads I didn't get a single LS orb or mana return proc (they're linked, so you always get both at once), which suggests that Overloads probably don't proc Rolling Thunder. However I did do a Lightning Shield -> Lightning Bolt -> Chain Lightning (3 targets) combo on the dummies which left me at 8 charges of Lightning Shield, which suggests that it's possible that overloads might proc it (unfortunately I wasn't logging at the time and wasn't thinking clearly enough to check through the in-game combat log before I quit). Regardless LB -> CL -> instant LB from EM can generate sufficient charges quickly if unreliably.

[e] Shock range has already been addressed in internal builds: source.

Elemental Reach affects all shocks. (Elemental only).
[...]
Yes, we have made further changes to the tree since the build that you have available now. They are predominantly talent changes and not gameplay changes. Earth Shock was the big one.


Zamir's Blog // Cataclysm Elemental Primer // TotemSpot Community

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#55 Rahdik

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 01:48 AM

The following was a blue post regarding build 12803

Totemic Reach increases the range of Searing Totem. (Tier 2 Enhance, so available to all shaman.)


Source Same as Zamir's

Note we can only take Totemic Reach if we spend the minimum amount of points in Elemental (34, not 31) which means forgoing 1% crit or 5% mana reduc on all spells in addition to skipping Ancestral Swiftness. If we cannot take Totemic Reach then is there any point in taking Elemental Reach? If we can skip TR and ER, then we get 1 point of filler in the Elemental tree which is 1 more than we currently have.

#56 masanbol

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 02:11 AM

Totemic Reach increases Searing's range by only 6 yards, from 20 to 26. That's not much of a gain, and it's pretty unattractive compared to our other options. Totemic Reach in general is a pretty unattractive talent, and a better solution four Elemental's specific issues would be to increase Searing's range to 30 yards by default and not take the talent.

#57 fhnhf

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 04:28 AM

If totemic reach becomes attractive again (i.e. massively boosted and the only way to gain 35 yd searing) would it be worth dropping 2 points of earth storm and fire? A 32/9/0 looks workable, if not a bit gimped on AoE but I'm still uncertain of how much 40% of FS is terms of overall dps.

#58 Kirion

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 06:11 AM

Well...25yd, but the point remains. Everything else is on a 40yd range, ES is at 25yd. It wouldn't be hard to include it into the range extending talent that FS gets. I'll speculate that its an oversight and that it'll get fixed, that is unless this is part of Blizzard's plan for us, but that seems unlikely.

[edit] Unleash Elements is also a 30y range, so if we end up using that to buff out LvB's, that hurts our range too.



Elemental Reach affects all shocks now, and I believe there was a blue post about extending range of UE via some elemental talent.
42.

#59 Throktar

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 07:48 AM

Elemental Reach affects all shocks now, and I believe there was a blue post about extending range of UE via some elemental talent.


Yep:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> GC, any 12759 Shaman comments?

Elemental's range talent needs to affect Unleash Weapon too. - Ghostcrawler

#60 davek

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 08:13 AM

For our priority it would be interesting how many charges LS needs for earth shock to take precedence to casting lvb because at say 7 charges of LS ES does higher damage than lvb. In a scenario where the 6th LS orb just procced and we know that the 7th can not proc until ICD is over we would cast lvb and wait for the 7th LS orb to proc.

I think the key thing to remember is that you only generate LS Orbs from LB/CL and they don't discharge. So, there's no hard locked reason to cast ES before LvB at all really - well, baring unforeseen burst considerations - because they're just going to sit there being good to go 1.5 seconds later and LvB can't generate any to "waste". In that sense, Fulmination is not a hard proc like MW for Enhancement simply because it's tied to an ability of choice, not AA.

The more interesting question to me is the possible consideration of "what, if any, situation do you cast ES in place of FlS even if that means FlS falls off". Primarily because you want to keep building stacks of LS Orbs to consume and, if LvB is a) off cooldown and B) there's ~just enough time to get it off before the current FlS ends, then it could be possible getting your LvB off and sacrificing 5.5 seconds of FlS to discharge a full stack ES might be an overall DPS increase given how hard the ability appears to hit at a full stack. But at the same time, assuming a 1.5 second GCD, FlS -> LvB -> LB runs 4.5 seconds before latency does it's magic and with a 5.5 second Reverb build means you're likely only risking the loss of one LB Orb charge to keep the possibility of Lava Surge alive...




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