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[Enhancement] Cataclysm Beta Changes (updated 11/4/10)


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#41 Taowth

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 04:46 AM

Depends if the charges would be able to differentiate between mainhand and offhand attacks, which is why I think the swapped to the duration model in the first place.


Since the effect is currently haste, I dont see any real reason why MH/OH differentiation would be the reason behind a switch as they can easily decide on average how many white attacks to be effected and make the # of charges accordingly. An example being Flurry and a little bit of haste getting attacks down to 2.0. They decide based off that they want 3 extra attacks per weapon so 6 charges or 6 seconds. Charges is essentially a 2nd timer mechanism for a buff, in that you permanently have +X whatever the buff gives you, and then when theres 0 charges the buff dispels itself. Easily balancable for their intended design goals. Unless they intended us to go back to fast OH (and by buffing LL's direct dmg, i dont see that as being their plan) then there isnt really an issue with weapon speeds clipping each other.

What I think was the reason behind the change was that they probably couldnt get the charges to not proc off of SS/LL, and so just did the quick band-aid fix of moving it to a duration so they could prioritize the other classes that were getting more thorough retooling, either with the aim of revisiting it later or just leaving as is. Thats just conjecture though, not based off any quotable information.

#42 Levva

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 10:22 AM

Mana doesn't feel too bad at the moment for leveling in the beta. I drop mana spring in my standard set if I don't have Blessing of Might but that's about the only thing I've changed.

Problem is that shamanistic focus is one of the "bugged" talents so I have it's effects even though it is no longer an available talent. I checked this morning and the same is not true with improved stormstrike so the mana returns aren't completely off but it is something to keep in mind.

Good thing is that adding shamanistic focus onto our specialties probably would be something they would consider if mana does become a concern.


Do you mean Shamanistic Focus or Shamanistic Rage? I can't see Shamanistic Focus in the new trees at all.

With the new build today they have changed SR to "Shamanistic Rage reduces the mana cost of your skills, totems, and offensive spells by 90 for 15 sec.".

Now this means the following. At best (with 1sec GCD) you can get off 15 abilities in 15 seconds. So you would save 15*90 mana = 1350 mana. If you used it religiously every 60 seconds you would get 1350mana/60seconds or 112.5 mp5. Now of course with not being haste soft capped, with movement, with not using SR exactly every 60 seconds the real number is going to be a lot less than that, probably nearer the 50-75 mp5 rate. Either way its a million miles away from the use it to fill up your mana bar talent we have today.

The talent changes the way we use SR completely, at present it is used for its T10 2pc damage boost, and to fill up our mana. In Cataclysm assuming this change sticks it is yet another mana REDUCTION talent it will NOT give mana back. So if you are already out of mana you are screwed.

What I haven't understood yet is what mechanism we are expected to use when we run out of mana? It seems to me that with this change we now have to rely on the new Primal Wisdom mechanism to get mana back so it becomes a mandatory talent. My concern with this is that PW does not scale. Its a 40% chance to get 5% BASE mana back. You could argue that with better gear you swing your weapons more often and thus get more "melee attacks" but its not scaling directly with gear really. I'd also have a concern that going from a 2.6 speed weapon to a 2.7 or 2.8 speed one would reduce your mana return rate and it would be a REAL pain if you had to work out will a slower weapon give me less mana and thus reduce my dps by being OOM earlier vs the dps increase from the new weapon.

I fully appreciate that this is early days and without knowing what gear we get at 85 its very difficult to understand how this will play out. However its looking like we may be heading to the days of mana based "enrage" timers (ie: fight durations limited by mana). They are doing that with healers apparently are they doing it with mana based dps too?

Interesting times. It does add annoyances for EnhSim (or its successor) though in that a mana cap does effectively change the mechanism by which you test. It may mean that we have to forcibly turn on mana usage considerations if that is going to be a major part of Enhancement dps play style in Cataclysm. I'll look forward to testing.

As an aside I got a beta key this morning and so will be able to participate in testing once Blizzard apply a fix to the Battle.net servers they upgraded yesterday so that it once again actually understands EU beta test keys.

Edit:

New Build

Shamanistic Rage - mmo-c is a typo and it must be more like 96% since it takes stormstrike from 901 to 38 mana.


AH now that changes things dramatically if it's not 90 mana saved but 90% mana saved.
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#43 Derfal

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 01:16 PM

Yea, that's true. I'm not sure if that's an issue in this case though. Ultimately I expect the damage to be balanced to be the same, regardless of the system. I trust they can make 12 charges (hypothetical numbers here) the same damage as 6 seconds of the buff effect, the only difference being the window in which the player can use the effect. It's possible I'm not seeing something, though.



Whilst in melee range of a target, having the buff last for 6 seconds allows it to scale with gear, as ultimatley haste increases will lead to more hits within the buff duration. Hmm, this may lead to us using a swing timer to maximise the buff.

#44 Rouncer

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 02:01 PM

Do you mean Shamanistic Focus or Shamanistic Rage? I can't see Shamanistic Focus in the new trees at all.


Shamanistic Focus is a bugged talent in that even though it is no longer in the tree it is still affecting my characters. When they redid the trees to 31 points some talents stayed active even though they were no longer available. Similar to how all our totems had the extra range from that old totem range talent in resto at the start of wrath.

I copied over a pre-made with no talents to compare.

Pre-made @ 80
Flame Shock = 702 mana

Rouncer @ 80 on PvE
Flame Shock = 366 mana

Rouncer @ 83 on PvP
Flame Shock = 1121 mana
Base mana = 13997

Flame Shock should cost 1562 based on the percentages from the premade which works out to 11% base mana. If it's really supposed to be 17% like it is on live at the moment then it should cost 2379 mana. Likely they dropped the shock costs a bit when they pulled shamanistic focus but since it is still active it is skewing any impressions of our current mana regen.

I can also tell it is active since shocks have no mana costs at all while the new shamanistic focus is active but LB and LvB both keep double digit mana costs.

#45 Roywyn

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 02:45 PM

Shamanistic Rage - mmo-c is a typo and it must be more like 96% since it takes stormstrike from 901 to 38 mana.

That's 90% Shamanistic Rage and 6% Mental Quickness then. The level 80 Flame Shock seems to be 16% unless the base mana changed recently. With the given level 83 base mana, this 16% Flsame Shock only makes sense if shamanistic focus was 50% mana reduction. Maybe there are some remnants of having played with the Convection talent (not that it looks great anyway)? All this looks way too messy to even start making sense.
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#46 rava

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 03:18 PM

Whilst in melee range of a target, having the buff last for 6 seconds allows it to scale with gear, as ultimatley haste increases will lead to more hits within the buff duration. Hmm, this may lead to us using a swing timer to maximise the buff.


Wouldn't the most simple solution involve implementation like old windfury/reckoning/tiny abom? The design could parallel original windfury, as tt went from a 20% chance to proc (1/5) to 20% haste (extra swing every 5). Even with 0 haste on gear we have 2.6/1+(1-.8(wf)*.7(flurry)) or 1.8 attack speed on a typical weapon. 20% additional haste spread across both hands adds up to essentially a full swing. If they switched back to a charge system they could put the Tiny Abom spin on it and have it read something like "Your next 2 melee attacks will generate an additional swing causing half damage". The obvious problem with that design is that with lower crit rates there's a good chance that your swings will be perpetually unsyncd causing either double mainhand or double offhand hits. The only real solution to that would be to add a single charge buff called empowered stormstrike or something like that and have your stormstrike strike twice with both hands but with half damage on the extra swings.

I know it's teetering on wishlisting and I'm sorry for that, but it seemed like a decent compromise between PVE and PVP and I am not in the beta to relay such suggestions.
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#47 Mengus

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 08:04 PM

With Elemental Devestation now in the ENH tree (which makes a lot more sense than having it in ELE tbh since it's for ENH's benefit only) our Ele tree is looking very thin...

It's either 6/35 or 7/35 and sacrificing a point in primal wisdom or imp shields in order to get 2/2 Call of Flame... By going 2/2 in convection however, losing a point in Primal Wisdom might end up being a wash. Obviously if mana is a concern, going 2/2 into Primal Wisdom will be necessary, but it's the only talent point I can see (baring mana issues) that is worth giving up since it won't impact DPS.

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For PVP - I can see all talent points going into the ENH tree, everything but static shock basically.

#48 Vesham

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 08:28 PM

With the change in SR, Primal Wisdom becomes our only viable way to gain mana, so I highly doubt a build with 1/2 Primal Wisdom would work. Improved Shields seems to be the logical talent to lose a point from.
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#49 Gondlem

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 12:10 AM

I'm guessing there will also be a place for picking up Improved Fire Nova for certain fights, probably instead of Ancestral Swiftness or Imp. Shields, depending on how the encounter plays out.

#50 Cochice

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 02:00 AM

I'm guessing there will also be a place for picking up Improved Fire Nova for certain fights, probably instead of Ancestral Swiftness or Imp. Shields, depending on how the encounter plays out.


Considering the current design prevents us from using Fire Nova with Searing Totem, and ST is now a pretty important portion of our damage (via imp LL), it would have to be a very AoE focused fight to warrent a special spec and the lack of ST.

#51 Gondlem

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 03:04 AM

Considering the current design prevents us from using Fire Nova with Searing Totem, and ST is now a pretty important portion of our damage (via imp LL), it would have to be a very AoE focused fight to warrent a special spec and the lack of ST.


Yeah, I thought about that after my post. Maybe for an Anub'arak style encounter where there's almost always adds up, assuming that Magma would still be the superior choice on any AoE packs. Would definitely be a niche spec though.

#52 davek

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 05:55 AM

Yeah, I thought about that after my post. Maybe for an Anub'arak style encounter where there's almost always adds up, assuming that Magma would still be the superior choice on any AoE packs. Would definitely be a niche spec though.

I think the big question will be just how much Fire Nova'ing we can practically get up to whilst still keeping Magma down and no more SR to supercharge the tank refill process within the lvl 85 mana pool + raid buffed mana regen because it seems to me that the overall value of putting points there depends on just how long we can sustain a constant high speed AoE Rotation within the scope of that kind of fight.

For example, at the current 22 and 27% base mana costs it wouldn't do us any good to have 6 Second FN vs 10 if casting it and refreshing MT, respectively, merely results in us bouncing off the bottom of our mana pool in short order stalling the rest of the rotation.

#53 Guest_ajrd_*

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 04:02 PM

I may stand corrected, but if SR is now reducing casts by 90% (not clarified), this will mean that spam cast: Totem - TR (during SR 15sec) = mana regain. Am I right? Hope so, it sounds like a nice quirky nuance for the Shaman.

#54 Levva

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 04:06 PM

With all the new stuff especially potential mana limits it's all going to be horribly difficult to calculate manually as with zero responses so far to my request for updates from existing developers or from new volunteers it looks like WotLK will be the last expansion with an EnhSim.

For Cataclysm it looks like you will be back to manual theorycrafting as there is currently no-one prepared to write the changes to EnhSim :'(

So if you know of ANY programmers out there then get them to get in touch or pencil & paper it is.


I may stand corrected, but if SR is now reducing casts by 90% (not clarified), this will mean that spam cast: Totem - TR (during SR 15sec) = mana regain. Am I right? Hope so, it sounds like a nice quirky nuance for the Shaman.


No that sounds more like an exploit that would be fixed by making the mana return of Totemic Recall reduced by 90% also.
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#55 drats

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 04:15 PM

I may stand corrected, but if SR is now reducing casts by 90% (not clarified), this will mean that spam cast: Totem - TR (during SR 15sec) = mana regain. Am I right? Hope so, it sounds like a nice quirky nuance for the Shaman.


When would we have time / want to do this during a fight?

The other wacky thing is it may be worth it for us to pop SR then use magma / FN once a minute. That depends on how much damage MT/FN vs searing/LL will do.

Also, I don't see how this change to SR means we won't be hitting it on cooldown. The previous incarnation at least gave us the choice of using it when low on mana or to counter specific boss abilities (T10 set bonus aside). Now if we know mana is going to be an issue, we'll be using it like the old potion cooldowns.

#56 SentinelBorg

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 05:21 PM

No that sounds more like an exploit that would be fixed by making the mana return of Totemic Recall reduced by 90% also.

Actually that is already the case. Totemic Recall gives you 25% of your current Totem costs back. So with Mental Quickness specced, you get 6% less, than without. The only way to get something out of it, would be the one Totemic Call after SR finishes.

#57 Cochice

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 07:52 PM

The only way to get something out of it, would be the one Totemic Call after SR finishes.


And then you'd be sitting without totems down and no SR to reduce their cost.

I think the new implementation of SR was simply to push us to use it for the damage reduction situationally and only pay attention to the mana aspect in very rare situations (the only thing I can think of is rezzing after a wipe and being able to rez multiple times instead of once!). Perhaps if there's a fight like Vezax, we will have a niche role thanks to SR, but aside from that, I'm just happy I get to use my damage reduction ability more freely.

#58 Rouncer

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 09:04 PM

Res isn't a damaging spell so it should be unaffected by the mana cost reduction of SR.

I'm hopeful that the totemic call thing does work and not just after SR fades. I'd happily give up one of my three calls to have an emergency way to regain a decent chunk of my base mana pool. Seems pretty balanced too actually since that would be at most 56% of base mana to drop (WF+magma+ele resist+SoE) so it would return at most 14% of base mana for 2 GCDs.

#59 Jessamy

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 03:24 AM

The Elitist Jerks forums are primarily a community for discussing end game PVE raiding. PVP is part of WoW, but there are other communities that focus more on that aspect of the game. Still, there are those here who enjoy such things. Rather than stifle discussion, I'm branching that conversation off into a separate thread.

Carry on.

#60 Althor

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 07:24 AM

With all the new stuff especially potential mana limits it's all going to be horribly difficult to calculate manually as with zero responses so far to my request for updates from existing developers or from new volunteers it looks like WotLK will be the last expansion with an EnhSim.

For Cataclysm it looks like you will be back to manual theorycrafting as there is currently no-one prepared to write the changes to EnhSim :'(

So if you know of ANY programmers out there then get them to get in touch or pencil & paper it is.




No that sounds more like an exploit that would be fixed by making the mana return of Totemic Recall reduced by 90% also.



Are the thoughts of the EJ Enh Shaman community that SimulationCraft doesn't support them well enough? Are there any specific areas you feel where SimulationCraft doesn't do what is required?




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