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[Cata] DK Tank Lead Post Organization


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#1 GravityDK

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 03:21 AM

To the DK tanks.

I had discussed (with Carebare) writing a temporary post to discuss this, but decided it's probably not worth a thread on its own.

I've worked out what I'd like to put into the new EJ OP for DK tanks, and what I will exclude. I'm happy to take suggestions.
I'll start the new tank thread when the Beta changes have settled to a point where we can fruitfully write about raid tanking, which should be when we're close to 3.9 release.

The information structure I plan to use is documented in this mindmap image.
http://pwnwear.com/f...sept 1 2010.png

I do not intend to do all the theorycrafting myself, of course. I will maintain a tidy and organised OP. I believe for many EJ visitors, it's the only part of the thread they read. I'll rely on the tank community to reach conclusions on topics like the value of mastery stat vs stamina, how to best use Outbreak, and all the other various issues for us to research for Cataclysm. I'll then editorialise that into the OP.

The map above shows what information I think should be in the EJ OP, based on this site's focus on endgame raiding.
As you know, I maintain pwnwear.com, within which I'll continue to write off-topic or out-of-scope posts, plus writing for newbie tanks (I like to help new tanks get their head the role).
Where there is a content overlap between EJ and my site, such as endgame raiding, I'll maintain it in both locations. You will not need to contribute at pwnwear to affect the EJ OP. I had to think about how to manage the information spread between the two communities, because I'll have responsibilities to both, thus combined it into a single mindmap.

In deciding what I think should be at EJ, I looked at other OPs, such as Unholy DPS, Ele shaman and Resto druid. I don't intend to match their depth, but do want to have similar content headings.

I'm happy to take input.

#2 Carebare

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 03:55 AM

I moved this to its own thread because it would only derail the current Cataclysm thread and that is not something we want. Please keep responses to this post to the topic presented: the best way to organize data. This thread is NOT for discussing Cataclysm changes. Please keep that conversation to the DK Cataclysm thread.

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#3 Guest_Aliocha_*

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 03:38 PM

Something I've been missing from the WotLK OP is a short, comprehensible paragraph on how to calculate equivalency between Armor and Stamina in terms of Effective Health.

Apparently, Blizz says the damage dealt by raid bosses in Cataclysm will be a lot less spiky, and avoidance will be more important than EH because healer's mana will be a lot tighter, but if there happens to be a few "instagib" bosses in Cataclysm raids, I think this could be a useful addition to the Cataclysm DK Tank OP (assuming we're still given a choice between armor and stamina while gearing up, otherwise it's pointless of course).

#4 Woeful

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:47 PM

I think your table as all the information covered. I suggest that we form a base outline of the topics organized in
terms of the following:

1. What do I need to consider before stepping into the raid.

Talents

Specs

Professions

2. What do I need to wear.

BIS gear

Armor

Weapons

Gems

Enchants

Runes

Stat weight formulas

3. How do I create threat

Threat generation mechanics

Taunt -- Death Grip

Area of Effect Considerations

4. How do I improve my survivability

Armor rating

Cool downs

Trinkets

Burst damage - soft enrages

5. Raid specific -- Specific Boss encounter -- Cross references.

#5 Disargeria

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:20 PM

avoidance will be more important than EH because healer's mana will be a lot tighter


That's just not true, though. Sure, avoidance might be treated as better than shit, but better than EH? Not likely. If healer mana is tuned so tightly that gaining 5% avoidance is the make or break for an encounter, what happens when RNG hits and you don't avoid enough?

Healers will most likely lean towards gemming for mana regen, using spells more wisely, or even having the raid avoid unnecessary damage than rely on a tank to avoid another attack or two.

As for Gravity, I don't think Festering needs its own section. I don't think there's a situation we'd use it in. RE could use an entire section.

#6 riggins

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:38 PM

A quick question:

Is this going to be somewhat of a combined Cata thread for both newcomer DK tanks and 'endgame' DKs or is there going to be a way to separate the two. I would hope we could fit the latter choice in since its quite tedious to cycle through pages and pages of things that are already instinct / muscle memory for a lot of people that frequent these forums.

#7 Asphyxialol

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 05:30 AM

As you know, I maintain pwnwear.com, within which I'll continue to write off-topic or out-of-scope posts, plus writing for newbie tanks (I like to help new tanks get their head the role).
Where there is a content overlap between EJ and my site, such as endgame raiding, I'll maintain it in both locations.

This leads me to believe that more endgame oriented discussion and information will be available on EJ and more generic and entry level information will be available at pwnwear.com and information which falls in between will be mentioned on both sites.

#8 malthrin

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:59 AM

I encourage you to consider one more format (aside from the detailed tank thread OP) for this information: an FAQ in the style of the ones in the Druid or Paladin forums. An FAQ is generally focused towards novice players that need basic guidelines without the supporting reasoning or theorycraft. This would address riggins's concern above.
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#9 GravityDK

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 10:06 PM

Something I've been missing from the WotLK OP is a short, comprehensible paragraph on how to calculate equivalency between Armor and Stamina in terms of Effective Health.


If the community can work it out, I'll stick it in the OP under a stats section.
That section would also include stat-threat equivalency.

I think your table as all the information covered. I suggest that we form a base outline of the topics organized in
terms of the following:
1. What do I need to consider before stepping into the raid.


How that read, Woeful, is more like a guide for new tanks.
My experience has been that end-game tanks will come to EJ looking for answers to very specific questions, like do I use resistance or armour on this fight, or which talent trade-off gives me the most threat.
That's why I liked the top-level architecture listed in my image, as it is organised to help an end-game tank find information, quite narrow.
If others think I'm wrong on this argument, let's hear more on it.

As for Gravity, I don't think Festering needs its own section. I don't think there's a situation we'd use it in. RE could use an entire section.


The reason for its inclusion was because it's new and different, and at least until 4.1 is released, DK tanks will wonder about it and research it a little.
I thought I'd just say "don't use it", like a one-liner (or similar, unless it turns out to be useful somehow).

This leads me to believe that more endgame oriented discussion and information will be available on EJ and more generic and entry level information will be available at pwnwear.com and information which falls in between will be mentioned on both sites.


That's what I was thinking too.
This site is for progression and end-game raiding, and the DK Tank OP will also focus on that function.
The exception I think is that 4.x introduces so many changes, that even HC 12/12 will want to research and explore their raid possibilities and impacts, which means the EJ DK Tank OP will have some "new things" in it for a while, until they all become muscle-memory meaningless, at which point perhaps they can move elsewhere.

I encourage you to consider one more format (aside from the detailed tank thread OP) for this information: an FAQ in the style of the ones in the Druid or Paladin forums. An FAQ is generally focused towards novice players that need basic guidelines without the supporting reasoning or theorycraft. This would address riggins's concern above.


There is already a pretty reasonable EJ DK FAQ and I was hoping someone would update it for Cat. I don't intend to. pwnwear will have content along those lines, though.
I do agree that an FAQ is important, though, perhaps another writer will pick it up.

#10 Woeful

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:57 PM

Above I an not suggesting that the OP be designed for new tanks. We do need a place to discuss the talents, talent specs, any "so-called mandatory talents" and any points left over for flavor. This is not designed for a new tank, but is designed to keep the DK tanking community up to date on the latest theory.

The reason to coined the phrase, "What to consider before the raid," is that you would make these decisions as part of the planning process. Predicting for instance, his or her normal raid composition and role, and then making adjustments to their individual spec based on their individual circumstance A player maybe considering adjusting his spec to handle a specific issue, and needs information to assist in that decision. EJ is one the best places to go to problem solve a specific end game issue, and based on the OP can then formulate a strategy to handle issue.

Profession in my mind fall within this category also, as this is not something that can be adjusted as the raid is beginning. Additionally, there will need to be a place to discuss the professions and how they affect the DK tank in a level 85 end game raid environment.

As to the overall approach. The reason why most if not all OP's are in the form of an outline, is because it works. People can find the information they need quickly and easily. You can choose to read the OP and understand the overview on DK tanking, keep abreast of changes to DK tanking or quickly find the specific topic, read the OP and then go through the posts to track the research and discussion.




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