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Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release


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#21 angayelle

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 04:29 PM

I'd go even further with the need to check interaction of Aoe spells, Combustion and Impact. In the case of Combustion working with Aoe spells, blastwave/flamestrike would consolidate all dots into one big dot on each respective target. And then if we Impact one of theses targets their Combustion dot would spread to adjacent targets.

At this point, would the impacted Combustion overwrite the one already present ? Would it merge with the one already present for the remaining time ? Or simply just do nothing, as it wouldn't work due to a Combustion dot already there ?

Of course, Aoe not working with Combustion will simplify all that...

#22 angayelle

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 05:49 PM

On the same subject of Combustion (oh yes, i love this talent), i had an idea for a combustion addon but i'm way better at photoshop than Lua, so here is what i thought about.

Posted Image

It show dots timers, both in bars and text style with a small light wether it's on or not (maybe the lights are useless). The hot streak icon would light up when buff is up with both text and clock timer. Travel time show up for information (i don't know if it can be calculated in some way by an addon). The color around hot streak icon would change depending if travel time > lowest dot duration, green for ok, red for bad.

Posted Image

Tell me what you think and sorry if i should have posted it in the addons forum.

#23 Skallewag

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 06:15 PM

Was it one particular dot that consistently kept running out before pyro hit if the traveltime was to long?
If so it should be easy to just calculate output compared to refreshing that dot or simply trying to be at
close range when setting up combustion.
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#24 elluminea

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 08:17 PM

Which spell to activate Combustion with: You might assume it should always be Pyroblast. But in Cataclysm, remember that Crit ratings (and thus the occurance of Hot Streak Procs, which make the usual long-cast Pyroblast an instant) will be considerably lower. In Cataclysm (unlike WOTLK) you will not have the luxory of Hot Streaks every other spell. Thurs, you can't rely on Pyroblast to be an instant cast every few seconds. Those adds might already be up and need to be killed immediately. You could always cast a full 3.5 second Combustion+Pyroblast without Hot Streak, or opt for the quicker Combustion+Scorch - and Impact Fire Blast spread afterwards.
[/LIST]


Last time I was throwing fire at the test dummies Combustion would roll into itself the ignite and the DoT from the spell it is cast with. Granted, this was back before they removed flashburn and the fireball DOT, but my guess is that you should still cast the spell with the biggest ignite potential to roll forward - Pyroblast if its DOT is not already up via hot streak, else Fireball.

Flamestrike/Blast Wave can consume the combustion effect, but it only places it on one target in the zone. I have not figured out how it prioritizes which target.


The above was posted on the cataclysm forums. Even if it could activate on multiple mobs it would probably be most effective to spread a very potent single target Combustion to the group rather than trying to get as many DOTs on as many things going and then combusting them all, our DOTs are relatively short, after all.

#25 arch

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 08:20 PM

On the same subject of Combustion (oh yes, i love this talent), i had an idea for a combustion addon but i'm way better at photoshop than Lua, so here is what i thought about.

Posted Image

It show dots timers, both in bars and text style with a small light wether it's on or not (maybe the lights are useless). The hot streak icon would light up when buff is up with both text and clock timer. Travel time show up for information (i don't know if it can be calculated in some way by an addon). The color around hot streak icon would change depending if travel time > lowest dot duration, green for ok, red for bad.

Posted Image

Tell me what you think and sorry if i should have posted it in the addons forum.


Looks good, you should try getting it rolling
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#26 angayelle

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 09:48 PM

Was it one particular dot that consistently kept running out before pyro hit if the traveltime was to long?
If so it should be easy to just calculate output compared to refreshing that dot or simply trying to be at
close range when setting up combustion.


The travel time theory has been brought up without ingame testing so there is no particular dot which caused problems. This problem is maybe more likely to happen with the Ignite dot because with its 4 sec duration, a small window time without any crit would lead to losing it. That's maybe another reason to be able to use the very high crit chance of scorch while moving : to keep ignite up, so we have a full power combustion.

Ignite would maybe be the most important dot to take care when using combustion as it's likely to be highest DPS contributor.

#27 elluminea

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 10:48 PM

You can't not have ignite included because the spell combustion affects is given 100% crit chance. Hence why it should be Fireball or Pyroblast.

#28 arch

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 12:13 AM

New build up. Combustion is revamped and seems to be a damage dealing spell of its own now.

I like the hot streak change, especially for low level mages. Pyroblast as our defining tree spell without hot streak seemed a bit silly. Bbut the necessity for improved hot streak evades me. Is it there to provide better scaling with gear?
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#29 Logix

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 12:38 AM

New build up. Combustion is revamped and seems to be a damage dealing spell of its own now.

I like the hot streak change, especially for low level mages. Pyroblast as our defining tree spell without hot streak seemed a bit silly. Bbut the necessity for improved hot streak evades me. Is it there to provide better scaling with gear?


Indeed, it seems they have addressed a lot of Fire's concerns in one fell swoop.

Concern 1: Hot streak is cool and I don't want to not be able to cast it at low crit rates.
Solution: Hot streak now has an inherent chance to proc whether or not you 'double' crit. The 'double' crit aspect still remains as an improvement.

Concern 2: Combustion's timing is a bit iffy
Solution: Combustion now does damage and combines dots in one cast (i.e. no need to now cast something else and potentially lose timings).

Concern 3: Flame orb kinda sucks
Solution: Flame orb doesn't have a cast time (not that this makes Flame orb 'not suck', but at least its a start).

Just so we have the list here, here are the fire changes.

Fire

  • Flame Orb no longer has a cast time.
  • Living Bomb now only affect up to 3 enemies.
  • Pyromaniac is now a Tier 6 talent, up from Tier 4.
  • Combustion revamped - Instantly deals 954.57 to 1131.92 Fire damage and combines your Fire damage over time effects on the target into a single effect, burning for the same total damage for 10 sec. 40 yd range, Instant, 2 min cooldown
  • Hot Streak is now a Tier 3 talent, down from Tier 4. Modified - Your spells no longer trigger Arcane Missiles. Instead, your critical strikes with Fireball, Frostfire Bolt, Scorch, or Fire Blast have a chance to cause your next Pyroblast spell cast within 15 sec to be instant cast and cost no mana.
  • Improved Hot Streak Modified - Any time you score 2 non-periodic critical strikes in a row with your Fireball, Frostfire Bolt, Scorch, or Fire Blast spells, you have a 50/100% chance to trigger your Hot Streak effect.
  • Molten Shields is now a Tier 4 talent, up from Tier 3.



#30 Karolus

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 12:57 AM

[quote name='Logix']Indeed, it seems they have addressed a lot of Fire's concerns in one fell swoop.

While I do agree with the things you said, namely the hot streak problem and so on, I have to disagree on the fact that it solved all of fire's problems.

First of all, it did not addressed the issue we have on dealing an effective DPS on a single target then on multiple targets. I still agree with the opinion that in fights where movement and AOE will not be a factor, that fire will have a much harder time to shine in its role of DPS. I am also a bit worried about the rotation fire mage will use on a single target. Will it still be FB spam ( with proper refresh of LB ) till HS procs or will we be adding fireblast with its improved crit rating, and also cast on the newly improved Fire orb

#31 elluminea

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 02:26 AM

It seems my comments on not needing to watch ignites for the sake of Combustion are now invalid. It's a neat change. I'd like it if its damage component was guaranteed to be critical for the concerns of ignite's short duration. Will suggest it on beta forums once this becomes more than datamined information.

Hot streak is chance on singular crit, guarantee on consecutive crit. Still double RNG either way, but at least we have increased the sources of RNG. This tightens the rotation a tiny bit, being less permissive of late reactions to procs. The single hot streak will have to be used during the flight time of the spell following the proc spell, else you could munch it with the consecutive one. More paying attention, more chances to proc our favorite buff. All good in my opinion.

I wonder how the Living Bomb limit will be enforced. If we cast a 4th will we recieve an error message? Will it remove our first? Does the spell gray out? Is this true of Combusting a Living Bomb? I don't really like restrictions, but I can see why it could be necessary.

Was really expecting to see Pyromaniac disappear. I'm confident that it is there to help on cleave fights. As we know even if you can find 3 sources for Living Bomb it may not be worthwhile to do so - we probably all would have liked to tab around on Lich King or the Iron Council, but Blizzard is capable of throttling us due to necessity. Even with Pyromaniac active you would probably not gain the damage with 10% haste that you lose on a focus target in two globals. One global might do it by the way of Impact, but then the mobs are close together and it probably is a cleave fight where everybody is doing the same. Where it will be up most often is AoE, though as a haste buff it will be of minimal benefit with our myriad of instants, and living bomb thus far not being affected by haste.

#32 Leguaran

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 03:53 AM

@Elluminea, The change to Living Bomb may not be as you think. Reading the tooltip it says that the explosion is limited to 3 targets. It doesn't actually name a limit for targets it is applied onto. I believe this is just an overall change to hinder the potential for abuse with Impact. Before, we were GCD capped on how many Living Bombs we could have at any one time, but with the new improved impact, there would be nothing to stop us from getting an about to explode LB up on 20+ targets and inflict a completely broken amount of dmg.

#33 Bashram

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 05:20 AM

Well, today's build settled my fears about Hot Streak. This is a much more graceful change than the one that I had proposed.

I would still like to see an additional active element in the Fire rotation, however.

#34 Zaldinar

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 06:46 AM

Kalgan from the Beta Mage thread:

In the next beta build combustion's instant damage is guaranteed to crit. Not only does this mean ignite is guaranteed to be instantly re-applied but also that you have a shot at a hot streak to re-apply pyro.


The Hot Streak tooltips on MMO-Champion do not mention this but that doesn't necessarily mean much. This would mean we could have a timeline like:

T+0.0 - Fireball cast complete, start next
T+0.1 - Fireball crits, starts ignite
T+2.5 - Fireball cast complete, cast Combustion which crits, causing Hot Streak
T+2.6 - Fireball hits

Where as long as combustions effect doesn't have a travel time, we should be able to generate Hot Streaks with the ability easily.



On the same subject of Combustion (oh yes, i love this talent), i had an idea for a combustion addon but i'm way better at photoshop than Lua, so here is what i thought about.


I've been putzing around with some simple thoughts on making something similar since Combustion was announced in its DoT combining form. The only difference I had from your basic design was also having a method for estimating the targets time remaining alive based on incoming DPS so you wouldn't pop it at 6 seconds left to live if there could be another target to follow that could take it. Not a hugely important difference but one worth considering in the design phase of such a thing.



I am also a bit worried about the rotation fire mage will use on a single target. Will it still be FB spam ( with proper refresh of LB ) till HS procs or will we be adding fireblast with its improved crit rating, and also cast on the newly improved Fire orb


Fireblasts relative damage output to Fireball is deplorably low even at early spell power levels. Obviously things can change and tweaks can be added, but under current mechanics I wouldn't support using it for anything other than impact spreading DoTs, which conveniently we could do with a Combustion caused hot streak proc, Combustion->HSPyro->Impact FBl.
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#35 arch

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 09:05 AM

@Elluminea, The change to Living Bomb may not be as you think. Reading the tooltip it says that the explosion is limited to 3 targets. It doesn't actually name a limit for targets it is applied onto.


This is how I understood it as well but apparently it is not the case

Testing on sw dummies:
1. When cast on fourth target the lb is removed from target 1 without explosion going off.
2. No, we can still reapply lb but no explosions going off.
3. It spreads to all targets within 12 yards, Using the same formula as in 1 it is removed so only 3 targets are left burning. Meaning the lb on the orignal mob doesnt explode and when you reappy it to the first mob you also remove it from one of the targets it has been spread on. I'm not happy about this mechanic.


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#36 Zaldinar

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 09:36 AM

Two confirmations of LBs new behavior from the mage thread:

Confirmation 1: It can only be on three targets at once, casting on a fourth causes whatever the shortest remaining duration one is to be removed. This applies to impact spreading as well.

Confirmation 2: It only hits three targets when it explodes.


Does this mean that its our cleave spell and maybe low target number AoE spell? It may still beat out Flamestrike for a few targets beyond the third, but won't help much on those packs of 40 whelps.


Edit: Actually, can someone confirm my napkin math externally with their own method? I'm showing that the break point between flamestrike and living bomb even with the 3 explosion target limit being around 6 to 7 targets, with the AoE cap at 8 targets this may not change much at all.
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#37 angayelle

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 11:14 AM

Hitting only up to 3 targets on explosion is really lame. Does SoC for demo hit only 3 targets ? Not that i recall... On a Aoe scenario with clumped targets, using more than 3-4 LB wouldn't be that much useful cause they would explode and need refreshing before you could cast the Flamestrike-Blastwave-Dragon breath sequence entirely.

Removing the ability to spam LB on more than 3 target, i could live with it since we now have other very interesting aoe tools but removing the explosion damage after the third hit is just stupid. In a pack of 9 targets, will the LB explosion hit the ones with lowest life ? Each target will do a /rand and it will pick the 3 lowest ?

---

On using Pyroblast as the Combustion enabling spell, there is something we haven't thought before, i think. When i cast Pyroblast, it's usually right after a fireball (FB1 crit, FB2 crit, FB3 is being cast, i notice hot streak proc, FB3 launch, Pyro launch 0,1secs after). I would have activated Combustion while the Fireball and the pyroblast were mid-air, thus ending with the Fireball activating Combustion mechanic and not Pyroblast as it would land right after the FB.

The only way to use Pyroblast for activating Combustion in a real combat situation would be right after a refresh of Living Bomb, Flamestrike or after a Scorch.

One thing is still possible though, it would be to have the Combustion dot merging to happen 0,5 secs after the Fireball hit, allowing then the pyroblast dot and ignite (in case it crits) to be taken in account. I recall seeing two spells in the database but can't seem to find them again.

#38 Shaewyn

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 11:38 AM

The Hot Streak tooltips on MMO-Champion do not mention this but that doesn't necessarily mean much. This would mean we could have a timeline like:

T+0.0 - Fireball cast complete, start next
T+0.1 - Fireball crits, starts ignite
T+2.5 - Fireball cast complete, cast Combustion which crits, causing Hot Streak
T+2.6 - Fireball hits

Where as long as combustions effect doesn't have a travel time, we should be able to generate Hot Streaks with the ability easily.


As you said, pity that the MMO-Champ tooltips say that hot streak is only procced by Fireball, Frostfire Bolt, Scorch, or Fire Blast.

However, given enough range, haste and reaction speed, you may be able to do a similar thing with Scorch or Fireblast, as they are both instant-hit.

Interestingly, I can't seem to find that +60% scorch crit talent anymore, but Fireblast apparently has a talent that increases it's crit chance by 4000%...

#39 Zaldinar

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 11:50 AM

Interestingly, I can't seem to find that +60% scorch crit talent anymore, but Fireblast apparently has a talent that increases it's crit chance by 4000%...


The scorch crit chance talent disappeared a while ago, Imp Fireblast is 4/8% currently with a range increase.



edit: To answer the below, it never has.

There was a period where the *graphic* for the orb had tendrils touching everything around it, but it only actually did damage to one target. It never has actually done AoE damage, and all the posts from Blizzard have been consistent with it being intended to be a single target at a time spell only.

The quote from GC that seems to have created the belief that it is meant to be AoE really doesn't say that it is:

It will be balanced for single-target damage, but if you can launch it in such a way that it will hit multiple targets, then you’re just being awesome.


It just means its able to pass by one target and start hitting another if you are creative in how you aim it. You aren't 'being awesome' if you hit more than one target with a spell that is always intended to be used on more than one target.
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#40 arch

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 01:20 PM

Is it me or is flame orb not an aoe anymore since a few builds ago? The tooltip says it deals damage to the closest target.

EDIT: And here comes a completely unrelated thought: I think alot of people are rightly complaining about the very static fire rotation. With less hot streaks we're looking at a static fireball / lb / combustion rotation.

I don't care that much personally but it'd be nice to spice it up a little.

Why not make glyphed FFB a part of the fire rotation? It is currently only used by frost to my knowledge. If the dot component is decent along with maybe a cooldown on the spell alá mindblast.. wouldn't that solve plenty of stuff with one stone?

* FFB gets a role for both fire and frost which is nice and all since FFB spec died with talent revamp.

* The fire rotation gets a bit more interesting.

* fire pvp gets a decent damage medium cast nuke (assuming the damage were to go up along with the cd)

This would of course have to be carefully balanced as to not mess up the frost rotation... Fire talents could change the spell in alot of ways.

As I said, this is not something I have given alot of thought or something I'm too fuzzed about. I just feel that fire pvp has been missing a medium cast nuke which can pack a punch (unless flame orb will fill this role). And I also dislike the notion of FFB being useless to fire.
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