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Frost Cataclysm Discussion [4.0 thread]


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#361 Maje

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 12:55 PM

I slight correction to simcraft fire model,
double hot_streak_chance = -1.7106 * s -> total_crit() + 0.7803;
A couple of changes, first the chance of HS is affected by your crit rate including gear and buffs, but not including target debuffs nor spell glyphs, so it should actually be total_crit() - (5% target debuffs) - (fireball glyph when applicable).

See http://elitistjerks....12/#post1766318

The second is very minor, the thread in question that listed the linear approximation for t1 HS actually used -1.7106c + 0.7893 not 0.7803. That said this point isn't really important since the latest data collected was from the beta builds which from then could have changed.

Also the whole simcraft discussion should probably have a thread of it's own, rather than hijacking Frost. The best option would be to create a thread for Rawr / Simcraft so all modeling / simulation discussion should be moved there.

#362 Nathyiel

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 02:15 PM

I have a question. Why mastery seem so poor for the frost spec ? Is it because of the lower proc rate ?

For a few day, I have been wondering if it will be possible to obtain the cirt soft-cap without Molten Armor in full 372. The better I have obtain is 17.5% (no talent, buff and debuff). Wowhead's profiler seem to be on maintenance, so I have to wait to put the link here.
Globaly, I have obtain :
  • Intel : 4651
  • Stamina : 5874
  • Spell Power : 7236
  • Hit : 16.9%
  • Haste : 10.2%
  • Crit : 17.5%
  • Mastery : 14.01

edit: it's before talent, buff and debuff. If we add it, crit will be 30.5%, 91.5% crit rate on frozen target.

#363 Lhivera

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 02:26 PM

Correction to my previous post: FFB is indeed sometimes casting without FOF. That's a change I made while trying to make Frost a bit more efficient before switching to Mage Armor. I have switched it back, though frankly it didn't make any detectable difference in the results.

However, while the devs were helpfully getting pet-referencing conditionals working, I discovered that Improved Freeze was not working properly. Fixing that improved DPS by about 700, and then using the new conditionals to burn off FOF charges with Ice Lance as soon as Freeze's cooldown was up bumped it up another 300. New results running now, should populate over the next half hour or so.
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#364 Tyrian

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 02:54 PM

Also the whole simcraft discussion should probably have a thread of it's own, rather than hijacking Frost. The best option would be to create a thread for Rawr / Simcraft so all modeling / simulation discussion should be moved there.


Would love to see this. Who's prepared to make a new Cataclysm Mage Simulcraft / Rawr / Magegraf thread: Place for consolidated discussion, feedback and analysis of all modelling and sims. Perhaps someone who has a fortè in this area... Vontre, Kavan, Lhivera? (Edit - Lhivera said he'll make this thread later tonight)

Currently said discussion regarding the various sims - is being spread across the three spec threads in disjointed fashion. We're all very interested in this topic, want to keep track of the latest trends and results - and help with development / improvements for respective sims where possible. This would make it easier to accomplish all that.

#365 Lhivera

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 03:27 PM

I'll start one tonight if nobody else has already done so.
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#366 Maje

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 06:29 PM

Found another bug I think, if you don't select Improved Hot-Streak but do have the normal version it still stops casting pyroblasts.

EDIT: also something wonky going on with the dots, might be with the dd spells as well.

As a L80 gnome mage, naked, no buffs or target debuffs, with the normal Fire spec, glyphs where MA, Pyro and Fireball (183 spp, character sheet and simcraft):
[TABLE]spell|live|simcraft
LB| 598|616
LB DoT| 702|739
Pyroblast!| 2009.5|2153
Pyroblast! DoT| 329|351
[/TABLE]

(1390 spp)
[TABLE]spell|live|simcraft
LB| 1015|1046
LB DoT| 1190|1254
Pyroblast!| 4037.5|4349
Pyroblast! DoT| 492|527
[/TABLE]

EDIT2:
Because I was curious as to what was going on I wasted a bit of money respeccing, the following were tested with 1390 spellpower: (Living Bomb)
Unspecced: 2740 (that's uncastable just the tooltip) (X)
Fire - Fire Power - Critical Mass: 4112 (X*1.5)
Fire + Fire Power - Critical Mass: 4236 (X*1.5*1.03)?
Fire - Fire Power + Critical Mass: 4624 have no idea lets say (Y)
Fire + Fire Power + Critical Mass: 4764 (Y*1.03)?

As you can see the multipliers don't exactly make any sense, or at least not anything I can see at this hour. Also it's probably too much fire for a frost thread.

#367 Nathyiel

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 12:27 PM

I propose a 272 BiS for the Frost spec.

[TABLE=head]Item | slot | Int | Hit | Haste | Crit | Mastery | Enchant
Signet of High Arcanist Savor | ring | 190 | | 121 | | 131
Signet of the Fifth Circle H | ring | 215 | 57 | 143 | | 86
Theresa's Booklight H | ranged | 121 | 81 | | 32 | 49
Book of Binding Will H | off-hand | 215 | 143 | 86 | 57 | | 100 Int
Maldo's Sword Cane H | main hand | 165 | 44 | | 110 | 66 | 500 Int for 12s
Bell of Enraging Resonance H | trinker | | | | 363 | |
Theralion's Mirror H | trinket | 363
Valiona's Medallion H | neck | 215 | 57 | 143 | | 86
Shadow of Dread H | back | 215 | 57 | | 143 | 86 | 65 Crit
Firelord's Mantle H | shoulder | 266 | 171 | 115 | 76 | | 50 Int & 25 haste
Flame Pillar Leggings H | legs | 345 | 257 | | 217 | | 95 Int & 80 Stam
Firelord's Gloves H | hands | 266 | 76 | | 171 | 115 | 65 Mastery
Einhorn's Galoshes H | feet | 266 | | 115 | 76 | 171 | 50 Hit
Bracers of the Dark Pool H | wrist | 215 | 143 | | 143 | | 65 Crit
Firelord's Hood H | head | 325 | 94 | 217 | | 143 | 60 Int & 35 Crit
Firelord's Robes H | chest | 345 | 98 | 129 | 247 | | 20 all Stats
Belt of Arcane Storms H | waist | 266 | 76 | 115 | 171 | | 1 socket
[/TABLE]

[TABLE=head]Meta | Red | Blue | Yellow
Chaotic | 3x Potent | 4x Rigid | 3x Piercing[/TABLE]

[TABLE=head]Hit | Haste | Crit | Mastery
1745 | 1204 | 2230 | 877
17.0% | 9.4% | 20.4% | 12.89[/TABLE]
It don't include: racial, profession, talent and raid buff.



No Wowhead's profiler! It's capped to 80 and gem is still very bugged.

edit: I made the 346 and 359 BiS but I have no time these weekend. I will post it on Monday. In 359, I can obtain Hit and Crit cap but haste has drown to ~7%. On 346, Crit is only 18.8% and again, haste and mastery is six feets under (6% and 9.5).

#368 elluminea

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:39 PM

They've stated they're undoing the change to the chaotic meta requirement in a future patch, so you can replace the sad gems with happy ones.

#369 BillyMole

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 09:42 PM

I have a question regarding the priorities as they stand right now. Currently, if you get an FoF proc with no BF proc, you will cast Ice Lance. FFB is reserved for instances in which you have both FoF and BF up. It seems to me that, factoring in Ignite and the new FFB glyph, that there should be a point at which a slowcast FFB will do more than throwing an IL and part of a FB.

The math currently is crude, but the assumptions are:

1) Crit soft-capped, so FFB and IL will both crit
2) FFB glyph, normal spec taken (2/8/31)
3) Haste is not factored in, since it should cancel on both sides
4) In the time it takes to slowcast a FFB, you can get one IL and half of a FB in.

Ice Lance has some great scaling from the doubling effect and Mastery. However, given the extra scaling that FFB has from Ignite, the Glyph (15% + 3% of the non-ignite damage due to the dot), and the Mastery, it appears that a guaranteed crit FFB is approximately comparable (or even better) than an IL plus a full FB. Since you only get half a FB in that span of time, and not a full one, I'm questioning whether IL should ever be cast at all, other than movement situations. If you also factor in increasing levels of Mastery, which FB does not benefit from at all, the difference should become more pronounced.

What I am unable to factor is the chance of procs. Now, currently, FFB is still generating FoF and BF procs, even though the chill effect is removed by the Glyph. I do not know whether this is intended, or a bug. If it is intended, then there are no missed proc chances to factor in.

In a practical setting, with my mage's current (terrible) gear at 80, from the numbers I am seeing, FFB would be a better choice over even a full FB + crit IL if I had the talent points for Ignite.

If this has already been addressed, I apologize for the redundancy, but I didn't see it anywhere else in the thread. If it does end up being the case that IL is never the correct choice once crit cap is reached, it begs the question of whether or not Blizz intended that, and a change may be imminent.

#370 Tyrian

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 09:57 PM

even though the chill effect is removed by the Glyph. I do not know whether this is intended, or a bug


My understanding is that Glyphed Frostfire bolt still intentionally applies a "Non-chilling chill effect" - for lack of a better way to describe it. That is, it applies no chill in the movement snare context - but still applies a chill (which is just set to a -0% movement speed penality) which allows for Fingers of Frost interaction.

#371 BillyMole

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 10:00 PM

Makes sense, given that they probably don't want you to be penalized for using the Glyph. So that means there aren't any missed proc chances to factor in. You'd actually gain more with the FFB cast, since you only get half a FB cast in the same amount of time.

#372 elluminea

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 10:32 PM

Brain Freeze
When Frostfire Bolt is instant, it can benefit from Fingers of Frost. Brain Freeze cannot be triggered by Frostfire Bolt.


These two rules are set in the tooltip of Brain Freeze. Hardcasting it will not proc instant FFB, nor will it benefit from FoF. It will therefore not shatter, and thus not be worth casting.

#373 Kaincael

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 10:57 PM

I have a question regarding the priorities as they stand right now. Currently, if you get an FoF proc with no BF proc, you will cast Ice Lance. FFB is reserved for instances in which you have both FoF and BF up. It seems to me that, factoring in Ignite and the new FFB glyph, that there should be a point at which a slowcast FFB will do more than throwing an IL and part of a FB.


The main reason a "slowcast" FFB is not superior to Ice Lance on a Fingers of Frost proc is because Fingers of Frost does not affect a regular-cast FFB. Fingers of Frost only affects the Brain Freeze'd, instant FFB, and it says so on the tooltip.

Brain Freeze - Spell - World of Warcraft

Second sentence from the last, "When Frostfire Bolt is instant, it can benefit from Fingers of Frost."

So without the Fingers of Frost benefit (and it won't even eat up a charge of FoF either), a regular FFB will do... the regular amount of damage, so there's a lot more ground it has to cover before it can outdamage the instant Ice Lance. If it ever could. That's something I'll have to do some figuring on.

What I am unable to factor is the chance of procs. Now, currently, FFB is still generating FoF and BF procs, even though the chill effect is removed by the Glyph. I do not know whether this is intended, or a bug. If it is intended, then there are no missed proc chances to factor in.


What Tyrian suggested about the "non-slowing chill effect" sounds right on.

Consider what the Glyph of Frostfire says: "but no longer reduces the victim's movement speed." It definitely doesn't say it doesn't chill anymore, and generally (or at least I'm viewing the past with rose-tinted glasses) Blizzard picks their tooltip words carefully.

Frostfire Bolt certainly does proc FoF, but I've never seen it proc Brain Freeze. If it did, that would be unintended, as the Brain Freeze talent says that FFB can't proc it.

Here, I poked a target dummy for 5 minutes with FFB only. FoF procs galore, but 0 BF. One could argue RNG, but it doesn't seem likely to me.

12/5 16:34:48.179 SPELL_CAST_START,0x0600000003B2 - Frostfire Bolt testing

Edit: Well, I took far too long in typing this up. Someone already beat me to the punch.

#374 Vykromond

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:40 PM

New thread for Cataclysm release: http://elitistjerks....sion_cataclysm/




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