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Frost Cataclysm Discussion [4.0 thread]


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#41 Gilthanor

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:25 PM

I believe were not all on the same page of what rank1 Frostbolt meant. To me it was the combination of a quick slow and it being spammable. Hence Early Frost isn't exactly the replacement for it.

But I've mainly used rank1 Frostbolt in TBC, I havn't used it as much in WoTLK because of the large amounts of haste.Hence it would be nice to have a rank1 Frostbolt, but I wouldn't mind to see how pvp will go without it. I do believe that increasing the range of Curtain of Frost will help a lot to replace rank1 Frostbolt on catching the flag carrier / fleeing player.


You're right, we're on different pages if you're thinking of rank 1 simply as a faster snare. Frost pvp in wotlk has never lacked enough mobility or tools such that rank 1 was all that important to save time on a snare, especially in the confined space of the arena. Rank 1 was mostly useful for quickly covering a target with both the slow and winter's chill prior to a polymorph, so that the first dispel had a much smaller chance of removing your CC, especially if the only enemy dispel was a warlock. Since winter's chill is gone it won't work the same even with early frost.

#42 Skallewag

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:55 PM

Also while loosing old tools we are gaining new tools. You can freeze the flag carrier from more than 35 yards range and while that tool isn´t new the ability to follow that up with freezing the flag carrier with one of your fof procs is, and also a more powerfull tool for stoping them in their tracks. And for shorter range theres the new CoC with added freeze yummyness. Sure, none of this is spammable. But I think frost will manage, especially since you do get a fast snare every 15 sec.
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#43 Ronninn

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 07:37 PM

Also while loosing old tools we are gaining new tools. You can freeze the flag carrier from more than 35 yards range and while that tool isn´t new the ability to follow that up with freezing the flag carrier with one of your fof procs is, and also a more powerfull tool for stoping them in their tracks. And for shorter range theres the new CoC with added freeze yummyness. Sure, none of this is spammable. But I think frost will manage, especially since you do get a fast snare every 15 sec.


Also since you can now place your water elemental a distance away from the mage with the "Move Here" button, you can effectively reach opponents with your elementals freeze at a much greater distance then the mage himself would be able to reach. You could send you your elemental, freeze, hopefully he'll blow his cooldown trying to get out of the freeze, and since the FoF should still be up, blink in and deep freeze after that. Sounds like a lot of fun playing frost and I'm glad I continued to play it on my mage.

#44 Fröstler

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 06:57 PM

Improved Freeze: 5-6% DPS @ 3 talent points.


Do you know how the bosses are designed in Cataclsym?

I am asking because until now nova/freezing adds was forbitten in raids (raidlead: freezing adds near healers/dds kills them...).
So, now it is part of our rotation and very strong in DPS for 3 points, this means if an ancounter includes adds we can (should?) not use Nova or Freeze and may loose damage.

#45 Rugz

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 07:01 PM

Do you know how the bosses are designed in Cataclsym?

I am asking because until now nova/freezing adds was forbitten in raids (raidlead: freezing adds near healers/dds kills them...).
So, now it is part of our rotation and very strong in DPS for 3 points, this means if an ancounter includes adds we can (should?) not use Nova or Freeze and may loose damage.


Unless you have 3 adds in a triangle or 4 adds in a square around a boss it shouldn't be too hard to position the freeze so it doesn't hit undesirable targets. It's exactly the same as positioning Blizzard so it doesn't break saps and sheeps in heroics.

#46 Skallewag

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 07:28 PM

Does the freeze even haveto hit something to trigger fof? I mean if there is a theoretical fight where the entire raid and a bunch of adds huddle together with the boss in the manner that a freeze would kill people the tooltip of imp freeze seems to suggest you can get your charges by just freezing an empty patch of floor. Unless you haveto actually hit something with freeze the only dps loss you suffer in such an extreme example would be a GCD for the WE not spent on waterbolting stuff.
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#47 Zeldyrr

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 08:05 PM

Skallewag is correct--the Freeze doesn't need to hit any targets to proc FoF. The safest place to position it in an encounter where you don't want to break CC is probably around yourself. I suppose in a normal encounter you'd want to hit the boss with it as it does a tiny bit of damage.

It is still awkward to fit into a raiding rotation but I'm thinking there is little chance Blizzard will address that this late into the beta.

#48 Cambriel

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 08:51 PM

The beta forum idea of adding a single target Freeze effect on the WE that shares a cooldown would be the best possible fix. No more targeting reticule, no more AoE issues. Raids get their full dps rotation and the WE remains a great control tool.

Surely it wouldn't take long to add that ability. We can hope.

#49 Seriana

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:07 PM

New Frost changes as of beta build 13033:

* Curtain of Frost is now named Ring of Frost and has been revamped - Summons a Ring of Frost, taking 3 sec to coalesce. Enemies entering the fully-formed ring will become frozen for 10 sec. Lasts 12 sec. 10 yd radius. 7% of base mana, 30 yd range, Channeled, 3 min cooldown
* Ice Lance base damage increased by 20%.
* Frostbolt base damage increased by 20%.
* Deep Freeze base damage increased by 20%.
* Early Frost now reduces the cast time of Frostbolt by 0.35/0.7 secs, up from 0.25/0.5 secs.

The new Early Frost further emphasizes that the loss of Rank 1 Frostbolt should be covered by this talent. It would be excellent if it was controllable and not on the GCD but it is better than nothing at all.

How does Ring of Frost work? The channel lasts 12 seconds and enemies stepping inside will be frozen for 10 seconds, but will the freeze break if you cancel the channel? It seems deceptively easy to avoid and the fact it takes 3 seconds to start freezing makes it a bit of a hindrance opposed to your WE's nova if you needed a quick freeze on something.

A bit of a naive question, but I cannot test it myself on the PTR: Will the damage increases on Frostbolt, Ice Lance, and Deep Freeze put Frost in damage potential range of Arcane and Fire?

#50 Zeldyrr

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:27 PM

Couple of quick points. One, Ring of Frost is not channeled. For some reasons mmo-champ patch notes always data mine it as channeled even though it isn't. Here's a link to the spell in their DB:

Ring of Frost - Spells - Sigrie

Here's the tooltip:

Summons a Ring of Frost, taking 3 sec to coalesce. Enemies entering the fully-formed ring will become frozen for 10 sec. Lasts 12 sec. 10 yd radius.


As to just how exactly the spell behaves no one outside of Blizzard is quite sure yet. The debuff on the target is:

Ring of Frost
Frozen.
10 seconds remaining


The question is..what does 'frozen' mean? The debuff on frost nova is "immobilized" for example...so is it different than frost nova?

Two, I don't think anyway can say if specs are balanced yet. The latest build is only on the PTR (and it seems to have failed in part) and not on the beta servers. Plus those changes were for base damage and coefficients haven't been tested yet. Since coefficients are seemingly arbitrary now and not based on a (casttime / 3.5) formula, it is really hard to say what geared, level 85 damage will be.

#51 Skallewag

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:51 PM

If we put the debuff and numbers of RoF (I like the ring to that) aside, how much of the visual details is implemented so far?
We can probably make an educated guess of the intended functionallity of the spell from the visual feel of it provided that its implemented. From reading the description it sounds a bit like that frost spell naga sirens in zangarmarch cast. A ring of ice slowly forms and if you´re still in it when complete you basicly got rooted with some damage slapped on.
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#52 Lucrece

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 04:13 AM

RoF basically functions like a 10 sec Deep Freeze on anyone who crosses the ring. Of course it can be dispelled.


People have to remember that with the cata design you won't be zerging down people in under 10 seconds, so CC isn't quite as potent as it is now in achieving quick kills.

#53 Skallewag

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 05:21 AM

Does anyone know if it´s affected by dimishing returns? If you manage to freeze some poor bugger the 10 sec can be extended to 20 if he/she doesn´t get help from outside. And even more than that since you can slap on regular deep freezes into one big ice prison trap.
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#54 Lhivera

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 03:01 AM

It's worth noting that the Freezing Trap effect also applies "stunned" and "frozen" debuffs, but of course break on damage, unlike Deep Freeze. No telling yet which effect Ring of Frost behaves like.
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#55 Zeldyrr

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 09:42 PM

As Arch noted in the Fire thread, there's a new Frostfire Glyph.

Increases the damage done by you Frostfire Bolt by 15% and your Frostfire Bolt now deals 3% additional damage over 12 sec, stacking up to 3 times, but no longer reduces the victim's movement speed.

Source: cata.wowhead.com


This could potentially be a concern with the Frost rotation. Is this glyph enough to displace frostbolt as the main nuke for frost? On a minor note, does this change the glyph priority for frost?

#56 Guest_Aleema_*

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 09:56 PM

As Arch noted in the Fire thread, there's a new Frostfire Glyph.



This could potentially be a concern with the Frost rotation. Is this glyph enough to displace frostbolt as the main nuke for frost? On a minor note, does this change the glyph priority for frost?


If glyphed FFB doesn't proc Fof i don't see the problem. That's a big if though, since the current Frostbolt glyph does let you proc it.

edit: now that i think about it, even with fof procs it wouldn't be too messy because, assuming the dot ticks every 3 seconds, you only see it benefitting you if you are not spamming ffb. In other words you would stack the dot to 3, refresh it if bf doesn't proc, else go about your normal rotation. At least that's what i think they are trying to achieve.

#57 Lhivera

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 03:56 AM

That glyph surprises me, because unglyphed FFB now does virtually identical damage to unglyphed Fireball -- same coefficient, and base damage is off by single digits. That seems dramatically overpowered, and way beyond what is necessary to allow the glyph to be a toggle for a Fire Mage who prefers to cast FFB.
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#58 Tyrian

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 12:09 PM

The new Ring of Frost certainly looks closer to its namesake now: YouTube - World of Warcraft Cataclysm Beta - New Ring of Frost Animation September 26, 2010 (HD 1080p) .

Is there any indication whether the spell will be given a more compelling PvE role? I understand their focus might be to simply get mechanics into place first, and worry about PvE role later. Given that mechanics are closer to being finalised, now would be a good time to discuss the latter.

Deep Freeze is the prime example of how spells like this can still get a compelling PvE use. Ring of Frost might occasionally find its PvP freeze utility useful in fights with adds, though the cooldown is too prohibitive - and those add style fights generally have more than one wave anyway: Deathwhisper, Deathinger, Freya etc.

What are some innovative ways Blizzard could tie Ring of Frost back into compelling PvE role? For example, perhaps via a Glyph which said, "Your Ring of Frost no longer Freezes targets. Instead, when standing inside your own Ring of Frost, all spells you cast which cross through the Ring are empowered by Frost, causing an additional X% damage as Frost damage". Something that plays off having things inside or outside the ring in PvE. In this example, you were giving up the PvP stun utility in exchange for PvE usage (damage) - but keeping the theme of the spell being a ring and the real estate inside it being important (instead of being a deterrant for enemies to walk into, it's an incitement for the caster to stand in the ring).

My other concern with this spell is the cooldown. A 2 minute cooldown, balanced by reducing the duration of the Ring itself seems much more appropriate. After enjoying 1 minute Flame Orb cooldowns, having another 3 minute spell added seems a little too gimmicky by comparison. One minute spell cooldowns feel like a much a more enjoyable model, especially when RoF doesn't have a compelling PvE usage.

#59 hassmaschine

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 12:48 PM

I've been playing with frost on the PTR (4.x) and I've been pleasantly surprised, although fire is definitely more damage (and more work). Fire is definitely favoring AoE centric rotations with Fireblast and Pyromaniac's speed increase, etc... which I think will hurt the spec during the level 85 instances. From what I've been reading about tanking getting reworked and the game getting more back to DPS having to pay attention / focus on the tanks target (which, generally I would hope DPS would do anyway instead of just facerolling through everything), fire is going to appear to get itself more in trouble... especially now that blastwave, flamestrike, and dragon's breath can easily become part of the rotation (and generally require you to be a bit closer... I know when I was running instances with it I would constantly get myself killed even at 80 because of the lack of self restraint (although I chocked it up to wanting to 'test' the new fire spec).

On the Dummies I'm pulling around 8-9k as frost and 11-12k as fire... I admittedly out of practice with frost, but that seems pretty solid to me, and single target would again, probably work well in it's favor.

#60 Zaldinar

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 02:25 PM

Is there any indication whether the spell will be given a more compelling PvE role? I understand their focus might be to simply get mechanics into place first, and worry about PvE role later. Given that mechanics are closer to being finalised, now would be a good time to discuss the latter.


I think it provides a great opportunity to choke together small adds for a tank to grab before an AoE starts assuming they come from a single general direction in a quick burst. Imagine the zombie train in Strat right after Ramstein dies, drop RoF in front of them, let them all train into it and get stuck, and then go to town.

Is this "compelling"? Not hugely, but I think it could be quite utilitarian depending on how opponents spawn in a given situation.
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