Jump to content


Photo

Guild Vaults. A sad anecdote with discussion to follow


  • Please log in to reply
41 replies to this topic

#1 Hozz

Hozz

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 293 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 02:15 PM

Ok every half-way serious PvE raid guild has a guild bank right? Maybe on one character, maybe spread across multiple characters?

The following is a big time QQ story and a LONG read. It has a point though even if it takes a while to develop. So here goes.

I founded the guild I currently lead in Jan 05. Coming from an EQ leadership position I didnt want to lead a guild again, it sucks IMO, too much fucking work for anyone that has other responsibilities in their life. But the server we chose (my wife and a good EQ buddy of mine, so three of us) was a literal wasteland of PvE talent/ambition. There was zero guilds interested, at the time, in end game PvE despite it being a PvE server. We were Horde, which explains some of that.

Anyway. Guild forms out of sheer necessity. Grows organically. Our early 'raids' were Ustrat and UBRS because we had nowhere near the roster to tackle 40 man shit. We killed our first MC boss in late April with a 30 man raid, Ony soon after and were on our way. We were never a cutting edge PvE guild in terms of the overall WoW community but always at the forefront of the Horde on our server and got every Horde first up until the expansion. There was a 6 month gap between our first Ony kill and another Horde kill.

So we of course have a guild bank. All our raid drops no mains needed got funneled to it. My wife ran it at first, then I did. We had tons of shit and soon decided to sell off the excess to a starving Horde (and Alliance) populace. We were able to get 2k for some of the higher demand Tier 1 BOEs, like Might. This continued with AQ20 spellbooks. Our weekly MC/AQ20 runs had us so flush with cash that we could pay 50% repair costs for all members while learning new content (like BWL) and pay dividends to raiders over a certain attendance threshold, like 500G every 6 weeks or so.

WoW eventually caught up with me, the stress of being GM, banker, quartermaster, MT, etc. and it was putting a hurting on my family life and work life. So I 'quit' in May of 06. When I quit our guild had killed Huhu and was working on Twin Emps and the vault had 90K+ a massive stock of MC mats, Elementium, ZG coins/bijous, etc. The vault was turned over to another officer who later would become GM. At the time this guy was solid, our best Priest probably and a hardcore 100% raider. The guild had a rough patch because I was kind of the do everything guy. They had to replace the MT, the banker, the raid leader, the guild leader. Etc. But they managed and killed Twin Emps. Obviously I got back to playing. In late August I came back 'full time' and was an officer and a tank, but not the MT. We killed Cthun and started on Naxx. We got Gluth killed but then the TBC-blues set in and we regressed, for a few raid ids we couldnt even down Noth (decurse changes ftl).

Fast forward to a month into the expansion and we start to have problems with our GM (and banker). He is just getting drunk off his ass and a real prick on raids, on vent. Calling people out unproductively, excessively negative and on top of that just playing like dog shit. He went from our best Priest to maybe our worst in the period of a month, it was a crazy change to watch. Looking back he was never a great leader, always too negative, quick to blame and not good at explaining to people what they needed to change. We progressed in Naxx in spite of him I think, not because of him. But hindsight is 20/20, right?

Well the officers got together and basically gave him an ultimatum, stop the drinking or we are going to replace you. Well the drinking stopped but something else started. I dont know what kind of drugs he got on, but he got on something. The angry vent tirades became sad, rambling incoherent bullshit. His play got even worse, which is pretty hard to imagine. He would get lost in Arcatraz. Lost running back from any GY. Just sad, sad shit. The guy was, at one time, someone I would consider a friend and he was just in a death spiral of loserness. He also began to play an alt more and this alt was fucking decked out in the finest BOEs and flasked, literally, 24/7. He was obviously skimming from the bank because he never farmed for jack shit. I cant really speculate what kind of drugs he is on but if I had to guess I would say something with a needle or some kind of hardcore RX pills.

So we had hit the last straw and gave him a ultimatum over the past weekend. Step down, transfer GM and bank back to me. You can stay on as an officer (realize the guy had an almost two year history with us, almost all positive) but you wont be leading raids and you have to change. He didnt take it well but he gave me the GM role and promised to hand over the bank. I am sure you can guess where this is going.

Long story long, I never got the meat of the guild bank. He sent all the shit. ZG crap, stacks of wartorn scraps from Naxx. MC mats. Just shit. No cash at all. So over the course of 2-3 days I am on him about this, 'Where is the money', etc. and he is so fucking wasted he cant really even follow the conversations. He claims to have sent it, but he didnt. He also deleted the former bank characters at some point. Anyway push comes to shove and he leaves the guild and transfers to another server (not sure which yet).

I petition, of course the GMs will not do shit. This really pisses me off because they lay it off as 'Its not a good idea to have a guild bank and we can not be responsible for it' but the game DEMANDS a guild bank. Is there a single PvE guild that doesnt have some kind of central repository for raid mats? Did serious guilds FFA or roll on MC mats, AQ idols/coins, Naxx wartorns? Fucking no way, so why is Blizzard leaving us high and dry here? The motherfuckers will not even give it a 5 minute look. They just give me a stock response and close the ticket.

So this post has a point after all and I apologize for the long windedness but I wanted to give some background and frankly just get some of this off my back, so to speak. Some questions though.

Have you guys had shit like this happen?

How did you handle it?

Is there any recourse for us?

How serious is Blizzard about getting a guild bank function into the game? Hero class serious? lol

#2 Ishara

Ishara

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 430 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 02:25 PM

You gave responsibility to the wrong guy, sadly thats part of the risk that goes with it.

And GMs cant do anything, because you gave the stuff to the guy you forfeit all right you have to that stuff. As for how to handle it just grimace I and move on, learn from your mistake!

Not really sure what discussion is meant to come from this, I personally cant see any guild bank systems coming in anytime soon.

#3 Nite_Moogle

Nite_Moogle

    I prefer the term treasure hunting

  • Allied Members
  • 11,288 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 02:26 PM

While this may be destined for a lock due to the drama factor, there's no denying that this is far from an isolated incident. I'm sure every server has at least one guild bank collapse every six months or so. Sadly the amount of work it'd take to create a guild-wide bank of some sort with configurable permissions is still probably not worth it financially, and will still remain vulnerable to one person robbing the place or requiring a checkout from a single person.

#4 Fenrus

Fenrus

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 212 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 02:29 PM

Yeah, it's probably not likely to happen anytime soon but I hope they institute a real guild bank system in the next expansion.

#5 Anedris

Anedris

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 749 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 02:31 PM

Even if they instituted a guild banking system, wouldn't the GM have control over it anyways? In which case you're back to square one of having to have a trustworthy GM? (I don't really see a democratic bank working... 50%+1 of guild members must approve any transaction of over 1000 gold... would be amusing, though, heh.)

On the other hand, being able to see what's in the guild bank and such would be handy. I just don't see how it would fix the "untrustworthy leader" issues.

#6 Ochiba

Ochiba

    Oatmeal Enthusiast

  • Members
  • 1,365 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 02:33 PM

Any guild bank system will still have to keep responsibility with the players. not Blizzard. When they do eventually appear in a patch I think some people will be underwhelmed because they'll want more of a heavy-handed design and I'm guessing the only enhancements Blizzard will make is (1) the equivalent of a shared bank slot that the GM will make available to whomever he chooses, (2) an easy way to see the contents if desired, through the armory perhaps.

#7 spronk

spronk

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 462 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 02:34 PM

Its a pretty common occurance, the need for a guild bank is severely lessened in TBC but still needed for pots/flasks. The best way is just to distribute the guild "bank" - titans/stone go to the MT and OT accounts directly, distribute melee pots to rogue leader, caster pots to mage or lock leader, healer pots to one of the healer leaders. Obviously all should be people who are there for every raid. There are no more cloths/coins/etc to scoop up, Karazhan runs should just be distributed amongst the 10, and there is no real source of cash anymore for guilds. Easy.

BTW Blizzard is absolutely correct in their response to the situation, there is no way for them to ever know who "owns" what. Just like they will never help anyone who has a ninja looter (thats what master looter is for if you are worried), its impossible to sort out what belongs to whom.

If you are not aware as well, Blizzard regularly bans accounts which have multiple people log on to it - account sharing. Many guilds come up with the less-than-stellar idea of creating a new account and then having 5-10 people regularly log on to it. VERY BAD IDEA. Never let anyone else log on to your account, you are just asking to get your account banned some day.

2.1.0 will probably lessen the consumables craze as well depending on the changes. A bit ironic that when WoW finally implements a real guild bank in some distance future, it won't be as useful.

#8 CheshireCat

CheshireCat

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,990 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 02:34 PM

There was actually a big wishlist thread about guild banking systems on here a couple months ago. I'll see if I can dig it up-- it might be more productive than this one for drama-content reasons.

Here it is: http://elitistjerks....read.php?t=8408

#9 Ochiba

Ochiba

    Oatmeal Enthusiast

  • Members
  • 1,365 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 02:46 PM

Its a pretty common occurance, the need for a guild bank is severely lessened in TBC but still needed for pots/flasks. TBH the best way is just to distribute the guild bank - titans/stone go to the MT and OT accounts directly, distribute melee pots to rogue leader, caster pots to mage or lock leader, healer pots to one of the healer leaders. There are no more cloths/coins/etc to scoop up, Karazhan runs should just be distributed amongst the 10, and there is no real source of cash anymore for guilds. Easy.

2.1.0 will probably lessen the consumables craze as well depending on the changes. A bit ironic that when WoW finally implements a real guild bank in some distance future, it won't be as useful.

I agree with you and I think this is a good thing. Spreading guild assets over multiple characters is the best way to protect those assets.

When a guild bank does get implemented (I think it will), it will probably function more like a guild clearinghouse. Got crafting materials or BOE equipment you found that might benefit others or alts in the guild? Throw them in there. The items that people really care about will still stay with their characters.

As far as gold is concerned, I think Blizzard is backing away from lots of BOE boss drops to keep "guild gold" from concentrating in one character. Having a healthy amount of gold drop from raids mobs to be distibuted among the raid is a better solution.

#10 Hozz

Hozz

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 293 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 03:03 PM

For the record this was not a shared account type of a guild bank, which turned out to be part of the problem. We did not all have access to the bank.

When I had the bank, it was on my character. When he took over, we mailed everything to his guy. We later had a separate AQ, ZG and Naxx bank characters (on separate accounts, again not shared) but these were consolidated at some point because of the relative worthlessness of those items.

I guess my point is, why is their a NEED for a guild bank if Blizzard wants to take zero responsibility for the potential repercussions of such a mechanic.

I dont think this is an isolated incident. I dont think its exactly common for a guy with a 2 year history of being solid to flip out and fuck everyone over, but I am sure its happened. And will happen again.

If they took time to investigate it, I am sure it would be easy for them to see what happened here and do the right thing.

#11 Quasar

Quasar

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 445 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 03:16 PM

There's only so much they can really do via an implemented bank system. Suppose they add precautions, no cash withdrawals without three officers signing off on it. Ok, you know somewhere three officers in some guild at some point will end up colluding to take it. There's no perfect system because at some point the trust will have to fall on the shoulders of X number of people, and people are imperfect. It's horrible what happened (to the guy's life) and a shame for your guild, but there's only so much a system can do to assuage that concern.

The best it could probably do is a history (i.e. "3/21/07 - Fluffycow - Withdraw - 250g - 'comment here'") and a guild vote option to remove a GM/officer.
JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?

#12 Ochiba

Ochiba

    Oatmeal Enthusiast

  • Members
  • 1,365 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 03:18 PM

Hozz I suggest you redo your opening post to be less about your guild and more about the general issue or I could see this thread getting locked. I'd actually put your story as the last item in the thread as an illustration because honestly not everyone wants to read that.

#13 Glass

Glass

    besides... it's all in the reflexes.

  • Members
  • 592 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 03:35 PM

Hozz is a fantastic player and a good leader as well. I don't know the dirty details because I'm not in midnight but I can say that this dump and run was 100% flip out. Everyone on the server was taken completely off guard by what happened.

I think the post can get some good discussion going, not so much horror stories but generally to see what kind of actions blizzard has taken in the past if anyone (I'm sure they have) else has had this issue before.

#14 ETBrick

ETBrick

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 03:41 PM

I guess my point is, why is their a NEED for a guild bank if Blizzard wants to take zero responsibility for the potential repercussions of such a mechanic.



I think this right here is what your argument boils down to, and to be quite honest I think its just another example of someone who was the victim of an unfortunate event perpetrated by another player and wants Blizzard to be held accountable.

A guild bank with the assets you described is in no way a necessity in any guild, and will often lead to some sort of expoitation by the people in charge of it(as you described the alt with top rate BoEs and flasks) or a complete withdrawal from a disgruntled officer.

The only real solution to be 100% safeproofed from this sort of action is to spread out items among several people and in as many cases as possible consolidate gold into mats and or potions/items of consequence.

Having seperate people controlling the items not only diffuses some of the risk inherit with 1 character banks, but also alleviates the work associated with distribution of materials, making the job all around more managable for an officer corps.

While a guild bank system would be nice, it would be rather difficult to implement in a way that would appeal to every style of guild structure and while I am sorry for your loss I think you are looking in the wrong place for accountability.

#15 Ochiba

Ochiba

    Oatmeal Enthusiast

  • Members
  • 1,365 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 03:46 PM

This story is clearly an example of putting all your eggs in one basket case.

#16 Quasar

Quasar

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 445 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 03:51 PM

This story is clearly an example of putting all your eggs in one basket case.


I see what you did there.
JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?

#17 Playered

Playered

    Soda Popinski

  • Members
  • 4,054 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 03:52 PM

I doubt it would be hard to implement and there are some basic principles which could be used to deal with the trust issue and ability for people to sack the whole bank.
Modify the C.O.D system so that you go to the GBank;
#find the item u want
#drop it off in the 'Request' tab (aka mail)
#select the officer (yourself/ones on your account are greyed out) you want to send the request to
#officer gets the request in the mail and opens it [Do you really want to allow Mrbean to recieve 5 Elementium Ore? (Yes/No)
#if yes the item gets sent to the requester, else it stays in the bank


However atm it seems rather pointless to even have a guild bank atm, so theres no point speculating the many ways to make them work with the various issues they would have.

#18 Evalara

Evalara

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 229 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 03:57 PM

Similar thing happened to us. Overly trusting guild leader gave the bank assets and management responsibility to a complete jerk that everyone knew was a complete jerk, basically because he had been around for ages and was willing (and eager, bad sign) to handle it. Long story short, when our progress in Naxx stalled he jumped ship with a few buddies and took the guild bank with him, something like 5-8k in gold, MC cores and BoEs when those were still worth good money, that kind of thing. He had his swift gryphon the day he hit 70 and we all paid for it.

All you can do is learn from it.

#19 Mem

Mem

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 599 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 03:57 PM

The main problem is imho the catch 22 situation: either shared access with the risk of having the account banned (that has allegedly once happened on my old realm though substantial rumors suggested the person in question was involved in some duping or other questionable incidents) or all eggs in one basket. I sincerely hope that Blizzard will roll out their announced version of guild banks rather soon and that it will allow several styles of management (shared access, free access, limited access etc). Even spreading out stuff at the moment won't save you from taking a hit, when certain folks decide to run for the money. Its still a risk, although not one big cluster.

But yes, I agree with the general opinion voiced here, putting all eggs in one basket is just asking for trouble, even if it is just an account hack. Anyway, there are quite a lot of good threads here covering this topic in more depth.

#20 Hozz

Hozz

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 293 posts

Posted 22 March 2007 - 04:05 PM

A guild bank with the assets you described is in no way a necessity in any guild, and will often lead to some sort of expoitation by the people in charge of it(as you described the alt with top rate BoEs and flasks) or a complete withdrawal from a disgruntled officer.

The only real solution to be 100% safeproofed from this sort of action is to spread out items among several people and in as many cases as possible consolidate gold into mats and or potions/items of consequence.

Having seperate people controlling the items not only diffuses some of the risk inherit with 1 character banks, but also alleviates the work associated with distribution of materials, making the job all around more managable for an officer corps.

While a guild bank system would be nice, it would be rather difficult to implement in a way that would appeal to every style of guild structure and while I am sorry for your loss I think you are looking in the wrong place for accountability.

A guild bank with the assets I describe is not necessary, agreed. A guild bank though? Some central repository of a guild's 'assets'? Every PvE guild has one. It is necessary. The game is set up that way. Coins/Bijous in ZG. Idols/Scarabs in AQ. Wartorn scraps in Naxx. FR mats in MC. Elementium from BWL. Etc. Every single raid instance is conducive to having a guild bank and that is if individuals completely account for all consumables on their own.

There is no way to 100% safeguard your guild under the current system. I agree that splitting up the items amongst separate people definitely reduces risk and is something we should have done more of. Obviously we (me) fucked up and trusted the wrong guy. Why does it have to stop there. This is a solvable problem. Blizzard can tell what happened, where the cash went. Why arent they? Are they not obligated at all to do more than 'Sorry, tough shit?' These items in question have real value and 50+ people got fucked here.

Blizzard should either alleviate the need for a guild bank, add some real guild bank functionality OR do more to fix things when they break, as they clearly did in this case.

When someone's account gets hacked, who is to blame? My account has never been hacked and I would argue that the person being hacked ought to be more accountable than Blizzard. But Blizzard fixes that, or tries to. I know people who have been 'hacked' and they get their items back, eventually. Why wont they even look into the matter here?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users