Jump to content


Photo

Cataclysm Mechanics Testing


  • Please log in to reply
322 replies to this topic

#41 Docrev

Docrev

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 216 posts

Posted 02 October 2010 - 08:30 PM

On a more curious note, Venomous Wounds only works when your target is poisoned.

That's actually not surprising at all. It's stated clearly on the tooltip that that's the way it works: Venomous Wounds - Spell - World of Warcraft

#42 Starfox

Starfox

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 578 posts

Posted 03 October 2010 - 04:33 AM

I'm completely aware of the design principal; on the other hand, consider the wording of the abilities:

Leader of the Pack: "increases critical strike chance..."
Elemental Oath: "...bonus to their critical strike chance."
HAT: "Increases the ranged and melee critical hit chance..."

There's a very distinct difference in wording there. And it's not like they haven't shown a willingness to give some classes inferior versions of buffs - for instance, how there are both +10% and +6% spell power buffs. So it might just be a typo. Or we might actually have a weak version of the ability. And rather than making assumptions, it seemed sensible to test it.

Easiest to get directly from the according spells
Leader of the Pack - Spell - World of Warcraft
Honor Among Thieves - Spell - World of Warcraft
Elemental Oath - Spell - World of Warcraft
Effect #1	Apply Area Aura: Mod Crit Chance % - All
vs
Apply Area Aura: Mod Spell Crit %
and
Apply Area Aura: Mod Melee & Ranged Crit %

Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
SimulationCraft Druid Guy

#43 ieatpaperbag

ieatpaperbag

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 230 posts

Posted 03 October 2010 - 06:47 AM

31. Glyph of Hemo was exhibiting some buggy behavior during beta. Is this fixed? How does it react to Hemo crits vs regular crits? If you have a Glyph DoT ticking and you hemo again, does it refresh?


I am not familiar with the buggy behavior that was seen or what you mean by its reaction to hemo crits vs regular crits but hopefully this will cover some of that. Sorry if it's all stuff you already know.

First, the DoT is enhanced by the hemo bleed debuff even if the debuff is not present before the hemo strike and the DoT itself can crit.
2551 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 165.815
Posted Image

The DoT is updated to the damage of the most recent Hemo strike and damage is not carried over, here my AP dropped 7105 from to 785
6274 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 407.81
3906 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 253.89
Posted Image

Here a non-crit was refreshed to a crit
2902 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 188.63
5426 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 352.69
Posted Image

Here is a crit refreshed to a non-crit
5917 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 384.605
2675 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 = 173.875
Posted Image

The DoT is also multiplicatively buffed by Sanguinary Vein even if a bleed is not already present
2255 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 * 1.10 = 161.2325
Posted Image

And as one would expect the DoT is updated to the damage of a hemo buffed by Sanguinary Vein
2383 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 * 1.10 = 170.3845
2533 * 0.40 / 8 * 1.30 * 1.10 = 181.1095
Posted Image

#44 Aldriana

Aldriana

    Mike Tyson

  • Moderators
  • 13,510 posts

Posted 03 October 2010 - 07:21 AM

Re: bugginess. See here for the problems that were previously observed; this seems to be fixed.

To clarify a few minor details:
a) Is it a true refresh? i.e., does it preserve tick spacing?
B) Am I correct in assuming the DoT does not benefit from haste?
c) Can you receive crit ticks if the Hemo itself crit? I would assume so, but I don't see any in your testing above.
d) Can you tell if the initial Hemo that puts the DoT up gains the benefit of Sanguinary Veins, or does the buff not go up until after the Hemo has dealt its damage? This is probably best tested with a low-damage weapon and lots of AP. This would also be a good time to doublecheck the normalization status of Hemo.

#45 Bakemono

Bakemono

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 03 October 2010 - 08:57 AM

For all those testing Subtlety on the PTR:

Glyph of Backstab is BUGGED. It currently behaves BOTH like the live version of the glyph (extended Rupture duration by 2 sec per Backstab, up to a maximum of 6 extra seconds) AND the new model (5 energy refund on a Backstab crit), but this bug ONLY occurs on the initial application of Rupture; in other words, the bug does not occur when Rupture is refreshed to its original duration from a Serrated Blades Eviscerate.

Example: On a level 80 training dummy, I started from stealth and used Premeditation (2 CP), then Shadowstep -> Garrote (4 CP), Hemorrhage (5 CP), Rupture, and the next three Backstabs added two seconds each to Rupture's duration (like in the live model), but I was still seeing "+5 energy" in MSBT immediately following my Backstab crits (the new model).

Seeing as how the new Glyph of Backstab says "Your Backstab critical strikes grant you 5 energy" and says nothing about increasing the duration of Rupture, it seems fairly obvious to me that this is indeed a bug.

I've already reported this bug, but the point of this post is to warn Rogues testing Subtlety that this bug exists and that it may affect your test results.

#46 ieatpaperbag

ieatpaperbag

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 230 posts

Posted 03 October 2010 - 06:05 PM

To clarify a few minor details:
a) Is it a true refresh? i.e., does it preserve tick spacing?
B) Am I correct in assuming the DoT does not benefit from haste?
c) Can you receive crit ticks if the Hemo itself crit? I would assume so, but I don't see any in your testing above.
d) Can you tell if the initial Hemo that puts the DoT up gains the benefit of Sanguinary Veins, or does the buff not go up until after the Hemo has dealt its damage? This is probably best tested with a low-damage weapon and lots of AP. This would also be a good time to doublecheck the normalization status of Hemo.

Thanks, no I did not see any of that described buggy behavior. Guess it would have been helpful to have timestamps on.

a) I do not know what "true refresh" means but the DoT ticking timer is reset when you land a hemo strike.

To narrate a little of the below log
16 sec: The first hemo strike lands
16 sec: The 30% bleed debuff applies
17 sec: The glyph bleed is applied (seemingly always one second after the strike)
20 sec: bleed tick
23 sec: bleed tick
24 sec: The next hemo stirke
24 sec: The 30% bleed debuff is refreshed
25 sec: The glyph bleed is applied (not refreshed)
28 sec: 8 ticks of bleed happen 3 seconds apart with 1162 haste (9.07%)
Posted Image

We do not see a bleed tick at 26 seconds from the original or second hemo strike, the first bleed tick of the second strike happens at 28 seconds which is 5 seconds after the last tick of the original strike and 3 after the second hemo glyph is applied.


B) Again, the above was done with 1162 (9.07%) haste and we saw 8 ticks spaced 3 seconds apart, we see the exact same thing below with 0% haste.
Posted Image


c) Yes, if the original hemo strike is a crit, the hemo DoT can crit as well.
Posted Image


d) The initial hemo does not benefit from Sanguinary Veins if a bleed is not already present and hemo is still normalized (at least for 1-handers, I'd assume it's the same for daggers).

Here with I am attacking a lvl 60 dummy and expect approximately 12.56% reduction in damage from armor as observed earlier. I am specced into Sanguinary Veins and only hemo after the DoT is finished. I have 6501 AP and am using a 2.2 speed, 7.0 dps sword.
(2.2 * 7 + 6501 * 2.4 / 14) * 1.375 * (1 - 0.1256) = 1358.386 ~ 1360
Posted Image

Here I just spammed hemo with the hemo glyph up, we see the hits are approximately 1494 = 1358 * 1.10 (notice no hemo DoTs happen because hemo is being constantly refreshed)
Posted Image

#47 Lightshadow

Lightshadow

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 133 posts

Posted 04 October 2010 - 03:41 AM

For this test, can you confirm what weapon you were using? In particular, what speed it was?


A 2.6 speed white weapon: . I can no longer reproduce those exact numbers now that the vitality buff is on the PTRs, but redoing the test with the same weapon (743 attack power naked) I get swings of 83/84 normally, 92/93 for the MH KS attack itself, and 99/100 damage for the melee swing during KS (on the heroic dummy). I assume that the difference in damage between the MH attack and the KS attack is normalization.

#48 Aldriana

Aldriana

    Mike Tyson

  • Moderators
  • 13,510 posts

Posted 04 October 2010 - 04:12 AM

Your previous results were wholly consistent with normalization for a 2.6 speed weapon, and your new results appear to be as well. Hence, I'm going to mark KSp as normalized and call it good.

#49 Lightshadow

Lightshadow

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 133 posts

Posted 05 October 2010 - 06:54 AM

I did the following for blade flurry tonight:

Test 1. Naked except for a white level 1 throwing dagger, I spammed FoK for 60 seconds and in that time period got two full blade flurries in. 21 FoK, 56 energy remaining at the end, for a grand total of 791 energy. Subtracting off the 100 initial energy and the 12.5*30=375 energy that we know was regenerated while BF was down, we get 316 energy in 30 seconds or 10.5333 energy/second, almost exactly 2energy/second less than without BF. It appears if the 20% is additive with vitality. I repeated this test a couple of times and got very similar answers (within a couple of energy).

Test 2. Fully geared with 32.57% haste, same idea. End result of iteration 1 was 28 FoK and 32 energy and iteration 2 had 27 fok and 69 energy. Subtracting off the initial 100 energy and the 12.5*1.3257*30=497 energy we know regenerated while BF was inactive, we get 416.86 energy in 30 seconds or 13.895 energy per second. This is ~2.676 energy per second less than would be expected, almost exactly 2 * (1+haste%) energy per second.

#50 rikilol

rikilol

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 06 October 2010 - 12:58 AM

A quick comment on Haste vs. Energy Regen:

There is an existing API function call GetPowerRegen() that returns the current regeneration rate per second. However, this function seems to be bugged on the PTR since it doesn't include the effect of haste. It shows 10 without Vitality and 12.5 with Vitality. Though I haven't had a chance to test the regen rate for Combat spec yet, it feels like the game is treating 10 or 12.5 depending on the talent, as the base regeneration rate. So the haste effect should be multiplicative with Vitality. I will try to confirm this.

#51 ieatpaperbag

ieatpaperbag

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 230 posts

Posted 06 October 2010 - 05:18 AM

6. Similarly, does the base damage of Backstab/Ambush exhibit the same oddities with respect to Opportunity that it has in previous expansions?


I am not familiar with the oddities Backstab and Ambush have with Opportunity but it appears that Opportunity applies to the whole damage calculation for Backstab and Ambush. Sorry if I've missed the point and this is all known.

For this test, I only had points in RS so that I would have consistent AP of 6501 for all of the tests and Sinister Calling for both Backstab tests and Master of Subtlety for both Ambush tests. I also did the test on a lvl 60 dummy expecting 12.56% DR from armor as previously observed. I am also using a 1.6 speed 11.1 DPS white-quality dagger.

((1.6 * 11.1 + 1.7 * 6501 / 14) * 2 + 345 * 2) * 1.25 * (1 - 0.1256) = 2518.56 ~ 2520
Posted Image

Same thing with Opportunity we see the expected flat 30% increase in damage
1.30 * 3274.13 ~ 3280
Posted Image

Doing the same thing with Ambush, I see the same pattern except all of my actual numbers are slightly off my expected
((1.6 * 11.1 + 1.7 * 6501 / 14) * 2.7493 + 367 * 2.75) * 1.10 * (1 - 0.1256) = 3105.12
Off by about 18.88 of the observed 3124
Posted Image

Same deal with Opportunity
1.30 * 3105.12 = 4036.64
Off by about 27.36 of the observed 4064
Posted Image

I went back and tested Ambush with no talents and the same dagger (5253 AP)
((1.6 * 11.1 + 1.7 * 5253 / 14) * 2.7493 + 367 * 2.75) * (1 - 0.1256) = 2458.53
Off by about 15.47 of the observed 2474
Posted Image

Maybe the Ambush calculation was changed and I just didn't know or is this the oddity you were referring too?

#52 Lightshadow

Lightshadow

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 133 posts

Posted 06 October 2010 - 04:28 PM

16. In early beta we saw some odd behavior with Rupture scaling under Revealing Strike. Has this been fixed to always give the full 20% damage bonus?


I did a bunch of testing around this a couple days ago and it's definitely still bugged the same way it was before. All tests done naked with a 2.6 speed white sword and 714 AP. First column is the observed tick, second column is the predicted tick with a full 20% bonus, third column is the predicted tick if only the AP were being buffed, fourth column is the predicted tick if only the base damage were being boosted, and the last column is the predicted value if, no matter how many combo points you used, the damage boost was equal to just boosting the base damage of 1cp. (A flat 28.96 damage boost per tick). Only the last column has reasonable predictive power and even then it's not exactly spot on. (+/- 1.5 dmg/tick).

Side Note: I haven't managed to get a glyph of revealing strikes on the PTR to test this with the 30% buff, but I can confirm there's absolutely no change in the damage/tick from the glyph of rupture. I'll update this post when I find a RS glyph.

CP	Observed   Full Bonus	Only AP	   Only Base	Flat Dmg Boost
5	274.38	   292.50	249.13	   287.18	272.71
4	254.00	   268.11	228.38	   263.28	252.39
3	232.22	   243.00	206.70	   238.62	231.46
2	209.00	   216.24	183.56	   212.74	209.16
1	183.17	   186.90	157.85	   184.71	184.71

Edit: Got a glyph of Revealing Strikes. Still bugged. What was effectively a 12.6% bonus before is now a 19% bonus (50% higher) and so on down the CPs. I've presented that "30% of 1 CP's base damage" column again because it's the closest match I can get, but it's still +/- 2damage/tick, which would be unusual for a fixed damage ability.
	Actual	   Full 30%	30% of 1cp Base DMG
5	290.00	   316.88	     287.19
4	269.00	   290.46	     266.87
3	246.83	   263.25	     245.94
2	223.40	   234.26	     223.64
1	197.00	   202.48	     199.19


#53 Aldriana

Aldriana

    Mike Tyson

  • Moderators
  • 13,510 posts

Posted 06 October 2010 - 05:26 PM

Did you check how much damage it does without RvS, or are you basing that off the damage formulas? If it's the former, could you post the numbers you came up with? Perhaps I'm missing something, but your numbers don't seem wholly consistent with the wowhead damage formula for Rupture - a 5 CP Rupture at 714 AP should be doing ((141 + 20 * 1 * 5 + 0.0375 * AP * 1) = 241+.0375*AP = 267.8 damage base, shouldn't it? Which is more than some of the "buffed" numbers you've proposed? Or is the wowhead formula wrong?

#54 Lightshadow

Lightshadow

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 133 posts

Posted 06 October 2010 - 05:35 PM

Sorry, all the testing was at level 80 on the current PTR build, not at 85 in the beta, so the default formula for rupture listed on wowhead isn't right (you have to move the slider down a bit to level 80). I did check to see that the tooltip matched the predicted wowhead values which matched the observed values on the PTR.

Edit: The formulas on wowhead simplify a bit to
1	580 + 0.06 * AP
2	815+ 0.12 * AP
3	1086+ 0.18 * AP
4	1393 + 0.24 * AP
5	1736+ 0.3 * AP

And the baseline results were:
	Predicted	Actual
5	243.75		243.5
4	223.43		223.5
3	202.50		202
2	180.20		180.5
1	155.75		155.75

Edit: I can confirm that this bug is still present in the 10/6 PTR build.

#55 darkmisfit

darkmisfit

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:21 AM

[*]What's the proc behavior of Hurricane (same questions, but also whether poison can proc it as it does say "spells")?


**EDIT**

Added Log(s):

One handed - 1.4speed dagger - 1 hour - No Poisons

3168 Melee/poison hit/crit/tick
66 Applications of Hurricane Buff

2.1% Proc

Ran the log till my dagger broke. If I'm correct in my math it looks to have about a 2% proc off melee hit. No ICD since it refreshed itself a number of times.

Running another log now dual-wielding with DP/IP.

Dual-Wielding - 1.4/1.8 - DP/IP - 94 Minutes

12217 melee/poisons hits/crits/ticks
232 applications of Hurricane Buff

1.9% Proc chance.


Does it stack? Can It be refreshed?

Yes, it does stack. And it can refresh itself multiple times.

Taken from the one handed log:

[20:30:34.634] Darkmisfit gains Hurricane from Darkmisfit
[20:30:36.236] Darkmisfit's Hurricane is refreshed by Darkmisfit
[20:30:41.274] Darkmisfit's Hurricane is refreshed by Darkmisfit
[20:30:53.135] Darkmisfit's Hurricane fades

[20:44:15.358] Darkmisfit gains Hurricane from Darkmisfit
[20:44:18.255] Darkmisfit's Hurricane is refreshed by Darkmisfit
[20:44:25.838] Darkmisfit's Hurricane is refreshed by Darkmisfit
[20:44:37.699] Darkmisfit's Hurricane fades

Posted Image

Posted Image

Can Poisons proc it?

Based on the logs (unless I am absolutely oblivious..which is possible) I would say Yes, poisons can produce a proc.


[21:14:41.336] Darkmisfit hits Old Worlder's Training Dummy 1 (O: 1298)
[21:14:41.796] Darkmisfit Instant Poison Old Worlder's Training Dummy 1 (O: 1533)
[I][21:14:41.796] Old Worlder's Training Dummy's Deadly Poison is refreshed by Darkmisfit[/I]
[B][21:14:42.097] Darkmisfit gains Hurricane from Darkmisfit[/B]
[21:14:42.636] Darkmisfit Deadly Poison Old Worlder's Training Dummy 1 (O: 2341)
[21:14:42.636] Darkmisfit hits Old Worlder's Training Dummy 1 (O: 1201)
[21:14:42.657] Darkmisfit Instant Poison Old Worlder's Training Dummy 1 (O: 1507)
[I][21:14:42.657] Old Worlder's Training Dummy's Deadly Poison is refreshed by Darkmisfit[/I]
[B][21:14:42.917] Darkmisfit's Hurricane is refreshed by Darkmisfit[/B]
[21:14:42.938] Darkmisfit hits Old Worlder's Training Dummy 1 (O: 719)

Venomous Wounds/VIM:
Posted Image

Instant Poison:
Posted Image

Deadly Poison:
Posted Image

#56 Guest_Adrammelech_*

Guest_Adrammelech_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 October 2010 - 03:17 PM

Did anyone check to see if the Hemo glyph procs HAT when it crits?

Rupture crits on live do.

#57 Exemplar

Exemplar

    The One-Eyed Man

  • • Guide Author
  • 1,802 posts

Posted 08 October 2010 - 03:37 PM

#36 - Partial resists.

It's my understanding Partial Resists have been removed in Cataclysm. From personal experience and testing on live (i.e. 3.x.x) around 45% of all spelldamage had partial resists. Looking through all the screenshots in this thread I do not see a single poison affected by a partial resist.

From the Cata Frost DK thread:

There is no longer a small amount of unavoidable partial resists on boss level mobs.


Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#58 sirann

sirann

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 08 October 2010 - 04:48 PM

#36 - Partial resists.

It's my understanding Partial Resists have been removed in Cataclysm. From personal experience and testing on live (i.e. 3.x.x) around 45% of all spelldamage had partial resists. Looking through all the screenshots in this thread I do not see a single poison affected by a partial resist.

From the Cata Frost DK thread:



That's an interesting find, if this change was intended; I wonder if we may see a change to glancing blows in the future?

#59 Torael_7

Torael_7

    Piston Honda

  • Allied Members
  • 182 posts

Posted 09 October 2010 - 04:31 AM

I read through the thread and didn't see this asked, so here's something else to test.

Do poisons get the benefit of crit from Agility now, or are they still considered spells in that particular regard?

#60 korner

korner

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 59 posts

Posted 09 October 2010 - 07:18 AM

17. Is Find Weakness a flat 50% armor reduction, or does it obey the same effectiveness cap as Wrath ArPen?


Now, when Blizzard implemented Find Weakness on PTR, it's time to do some tests.
Tests done with premade on PTR, no proc trinkets/enchants and no meta gem.

1. Gouge on clean Heroic Training Dummy (lvl 83)
Posted Image
Damage: 588
With tooltip damage of 993:
damage reduction:
dr = (993-588)/993 = 0.4078
Armor: 
a = dr*C/(1-dr) = 0.4078*15232.5/(1-0.4078) = 10492

2. Gouge on the same dummy with Find Weakness applied:
Posted Image
Damage: 738

damage reduction:
dr = (993-738)/993 = 0.2568

Armor: 
a = dr*C/(1-dr) = 0.2568*15232.5/(1-0.2568) = 5263 ~ 5246 = 10492/2
So far so good, 50% armor reduction as promised.

3. Now let's test interaction with Expose Armor, which gives 12% armor reduction.
Posted Image
Damage: 762

damage reduction:
dr = (993-762)/993 = 0.2326

Armor: 
a = dr*C/(1-dr) = 0.2326*15232.5/(1-0.2326) = 4617

Multiplicative stacking of EA and FW predicts armor to be
a = 10492*(1-0.5)*(1-0.12) = 4616.38 ~ 4617 from the prev. test
Additive stacking would give 3987, which is far from the test results.


TL;DR: FW provides 50% multiplicative armor reduction.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users