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#1 malthrin

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:32 PM

With 4.0 around the corner, I'd like to get an idea who's interested in writing the primary references for each spec. I'm also interested in any general feedback that folks have on the organization of our subforum.

Here's what I have in mind right now, but this isn't set in stone:
  • Existing WotLK and beta Cataclysm threads will be locked at some point between 4.01 release and Cataclysm release.
  • 3 Compendium threads, one for each spec. These will be the usual exhaustive summary of current knowledge.
  • A sticky FAQ post akin to the current one - basic instructions and answers. Ideally these will be written/maintained by the Compendium authors, but I'm also willing to help with the editing here.
  • A sticky Simple Questions/Simple Answers thread to catch questions that aren't answered by the FAQ. Ideally, holes in the FAQ can be filled in by keeping an eye on what gets asked here.
  • Other threads for specific tools (Ret's Rawr module, other sims), encounter-specific discussion (like the Rogue one here), or other distinct topics can be created at the poster's discretion.

Thoughts?
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#2 Gormal

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:42 PM

A paladin-specific addon thread with an OP that gets updated wouldn't be a bad thing. There was a lot of great stuff put out between Zurm's UI thread and the rotation helper one but we wound up with discussions about addons jumping between those and the individual spec threads.

#3 Malleus

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 10:21 PM

With 4.0 around the corner, I'd like to get an idea who's interested in writing the primary references for each spec.


Clarification, please: are you looking for someone to actually generate this information, or volunteers to compile and maintain databases of information derived from theorycrafting by the EJs collective?

Also, your first pass omitted BIS Gearing threads. I'm guessing your intent is to have BIS gear for each spec be discussed inside the respective Compendia? It was only Retribution gear that had its own thread before due to the wider array of possible sets, but with non-Plate gear being removed as an option there's a lot less to discuss.

#4 frmorrison

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 10:56 PM

Clarification, please: are you looking for someone to actually generate this information, or volunteers to compile and maintain databases of information derived from theorycrafting by the EJs collective?

Also, your first pass omitted BIS Gearing threads. I'm guessing your intent is to have BIS gear for each spec be discussed inside the respective Compendia? It was only Retribution gear that had its own thread before due to the wider array of possible sets, but with non-Plate gear being removed as an option there's a lot less to discuss.


With current information, someone would have to generate content and then organize the information that comes along. Certainly people will give feedback but the most important thing is keeping a thread's original post current with the changes that come along.

A BiS gearing list could go inside the Ret thread. Note with reforging and blue gems = hit, there could be some tricky maneuvering, so there is still a place for such a list, along with having a Heroic items and normal items list per Tier.

#5 malthrin

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 01:29 PM

Clarification, please: are you looking for someone to actually generate this information, or volunteers to compile and maintain databases of information derived from theorycrafting by the EJs collective?

Also, your first pass omitted BIS Gearing threads. I'm guessing your intent is to have BIS gear for each spec be discussed inside the respective Compendia? It was only Retribution gear that had its own thread before due to the wider array of possible sets, but with non-Plate gear being removed as an option there's a lot less to discuss.


Compile primarily, though obviously it's going to take a fair amount of theorycrafting knowledge to assemble all the relevant information. As Ashstrike mentioned, it's also important to keep a Compendium's first post updated with hotfixes and new mechanics. We'll start a new Compendium thread if a major patch changes things to the point that the old discussion is invalidated.

Personally, I don't like the concept of BiS lists; they're not useful in most actual gearing situations, where you're choosing between non-optimal options due to restrictions imposed by your guild's progression, loot system, your badge or gold income, or any of a hundred other factors. BiS usually isn't even reachable until after progression in that tier is over; once you've cleared the zone, who cares what you're wearing? It's the choices you have to make before you have access to everything that actually affect your progression. However, that's just a personal opinion; I'll leave it up to the Compendium authors' discretion to decide if they want to cover BiS gear or not.
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#6 saboya

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 02:47 PM

Compile primarily, though obviously it's going to take a fair amount of theorycrafting knowledge to assemble all the relevant information. As Ashstrike mentioned, it's also important to keep a Compendium's first post updated with hotfixes and new mechanics. We'll start a new Compendium thread if a major patch changes things to the point that the old discussion is invalidated.

Personally, I don't like the concept of BiS lists; they're not useful in most actual gearing situations, where you're choosing between non-optimal options due to restrictions imposed by your guild's progression, loot system, your badge or gold income, or any of a hundred other factors. BiS usually isn't even reachable until after progression in that tier is over; once you've cleared the zone, who cares what you're wearing? It's the choices you have to make before you have access to everything that actually affect your progression. However, that's just a personal opinion; I'll leave it up to the Compendium authors' discretion to decide if they want to cover BiS gear or not.

I think it's quite the opposite: It helps A LOT when you are making non-optimal choices for your gear. If you know in advance your BiS setup you can plan for it and avoid rolling for something you know it's going to be more useful to other classes, while it's just a gap-filler for you. Also, considering you have the same items with higher ilvl during progression (Normal -> Heroic), you can plan your itemization beforehand, and fill the most important gaps (Hit cap, Expertise cap, etc) with gems or reforging while you don't have the BiS (or another item if it makes more sense).

About organization, I actually like the idea of having separate gear / mechanics threads. I've seen that in other classes sub-forums and it just felt better.

#7 Daler

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 03:36 PM

I think it's quite the opposite: It helps A LOT when you are making non-optimal choices for your gear. If you know in advance your BiS setup you can plan for it and avoid rolling for something you know it's going to be more useful to other classes, while it's just a gap-filler for you. Also, considering you have the same items with higher ilvl during progression (Normal -> Heroic), you can plan your itemization beforehand, and fill the most important gaps (Hit cap, Expertise cap, etc) with gems or reforging while you don't have the BiS (or another item if it makes more sense).

About organization, I actually like the idea of having separate gear / mechanics threads. I've seen that in other classes sub-forums and it just felt better.


You're just re-inforcing Malthrin's point though. Gear sets are determined far more by your luck with drop rates, guild loot acquisition policies, and guild social dynamics than any actual effect on players' output. BiS is functionally useless as a concept (with perhaps the exception of easing a loot council's decision making process, but that's their problem, not a min/max one that needs to be addressed on these boards).

I'm with Malthrin on this one. BiS lists are merely a honeypot for lazy help requests because people are too damn stupid to use the simulators and spreadsheets available, and should be avoided. I'd love to see them nuked from orbit on this board, but that's not my call. Malth's point is spot on, though; BiS sets are only obtainable AFTER you've beaten all relevant content. You're not getting that drop off the last boss until he's dead, and at that point, it really doesn't matter one iota aside from enhancing someone's e-peen.

That's my two cents on the issue. I'd say if the compendium authors do choose to do BiS lists, I'd suggest making them separate threads. It'll help keep the mechanics threads a bit cleaner, if nothing else.

#8 Barogorn

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 06:39 PM

On a side note, and possibly more important to gearing concerns. Where would a optimal pre-raid gear list be placed? In the OP of the mechanics thread? Or possibly its own? If a bis thread was made possibly there?
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#9 Capstone

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 06:47 PM

As Ashstrike pointed out, with reforging in the game there's likely to be some subtleties to gearing strategies, and as such a gearing discussion thread would be useful, whether you include a BiS list or not.

#10 Aslice

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 08:15 PM

2 cents -

BiS lists are very nice - but I have always found "ranked lists" ( however subjective and argued over ) to be more useful.
If nothing else - having one page to go to that has links readily available ...

Very nice ...

The "bucketed" BiS lists that I see in Ret are pretty nice as well ( heroic 25's / non-heroic 25's / heroic 10s / etc )

#11 malthrin

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 06:30 PM

As Ashstrike pointed out, with reforging in the game there's likely to be some subtleties to gearing strategies, and as such a gearing discussion thread would be useful, whether you include a BiS list or not.


On the contrary, I think reforging makes a BiS list even less practical; just because an item is on the BiS list with one stat configuration doesn't mean you shouldn't reforge it to some other configuration based on your current gear. General purpose guidelines about stat priorities and caps are much more useful, and those should be covered in the Compendium. In any event, that's enough on that topic; as I said earlier, I'll leave it up to the thread authors whether they want to discuss BiS gear or not.

Speaking of authors, Emptyrepublic has volunteered for the Prot thread. I'm still looking for authors for Ret and Holy. The process probably will go something like this:
1. Outline the Compendium post
2. Identify mechanics that still need testing and solicit testers from the existing threads
3. Draw conclusions and compile the content of the post
4. Post Compendium for review/error checking
5. Work with me to write FAQ to highlight the key points of the Compendium

We should have at least another month of Beta to do mechanics testing (and hopefully get some raid logs once that testing begins), so that's the first priority.
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#12 malthrin

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 02:30 AM

Exemplar has volunteered to write up the OP for the Retribution thread. Please help him out with any testing requests to resolve unanswered Ret mechanics questions while we still have access to the PTR and Beta realms.
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#13 Exemplar

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 12:27 PM

I'm busy on the first draft of the OP for our new thread - it probably won't be ready tomorrow if 4.0.1 is released, but goal is sometime this week. Feel free to PM anything you especially want to see in it.

My thanks to those who have already volunteered to assist. Just watch for publicly asked questions and pitch in as it suits your schedule and temperament.

Question 1: Do we have all 9 Glyph (3 Prime, 3 Major, 3 Minor) slots available at L80? If not, how many of each are available?

Question 2: What are the base damage and coefficients of Consecration - both at L80 and L85? Cata.wowhead is showing 81/tick with no coefficient and no scalar for level, so I don't believe it.

Question 3: Glyph of Exo - is the 6 seconds of additional damage impacted by haste? If so, does it do the additional 20% faster, then drop, or does it last the full 6 seconds and gain an additional (partial) tick?
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#14 glad2beme

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 02:29 PM

Question 1: Do we have all 9 Glyph (3 Prime, 3 Major, 3 Minor) slots available at L80? If not, how many of each are available?


On the PTR all 9 glyph spots are available. Not sure when each set is available but when created a dk had 6 available spots and showed the bottom right 3 (1 each minor, major and prime) as being available at level 75.

#15 emptyrepublic

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 08:39 PM

I have a good start on the 4.0.1/Cata Protection/Tanking thread. It will not be ready by tomorrow, but I hope to have it up by the end of the week.

#16 CrazyScot

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:08 AM

Is 1 intellect still providing 15 mana?

I am currently in the process of writing a draft Holy page but cannot find anything on this detail...

#17 Rennadrel

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:03 AM

2 cents -

BiS lists are very nice - but I have always found "ranked lists" ( however subjective and argued over ) to be more useful.
If nothing else - having one page to go to that has links readily available ...

Very nice ...

The "bucketed" BiS lists that I see in Ret are pretty nice as well ( heroic 25's / non-heroic 25's / heroic 10s / etc )


Agreed. Having a ranked list to choose from helps out a lot, but rankings are generally opinions expressed by players who prefer certain things over others. That said, we have the fortune of basically choosing whatever items we feel are going to be the best for Ret and tanking is pretty homogenized, not like Holy is going to be a complete no brainer though because we the only healing plate class in the game. However regardless some items may work better for certain encounters, say more haste for quicker heals on raid versus heavier hitting heals with a slower cast time for more single target focused healing such as on a tank.

The reforging is going to certainly make players fine tune their characters to be optimal and I would like to see plenty of discussion on it as a part of how we play. Alongside Mastery, I have not delved too deeply into this yet but my initial gatherings have led me to believe that it will be vital come Cataclysm, how much is needed and what the best approach will be in the long term for obtaining it along with other stats for the optimization of all 3 specs will go a long way. And at what point are we going to need to stack less haste and start going for Mastery as Retribution for instance is another key thing.

There are going to be far too many things to discuss in Cataclysm, but for me I would like to see a large open discussion on the importance of Mastery and Reforging above all.

#18 Mattsvaliant-v2

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 02:09 PM

Is 1 intellect still providing 15 mana?

I am currently in the process of writing a draft Holy page but cannot find anything on this detail...


No, its not.

I believe its 10 mana per Int, but I don't have a soucre. Its certainly not 15 though.

#19 emptyrepublic

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:56 PM

I'd really like some analysis from anyone who has done tanking in the Beta. I've had time to mess around some, but not a lot. One of my priorities for the new 4.0 tanking guide is to have a strong section discussion the tanking rotation. 9/6 will no longer exist and the rotation will be largely driven on the availability of Holy Power and the optimal abilities and times to use abilities that take advantage of Holy Power. This is something I very much want to get right as soon as possible because that will have the largest impact on tank performance in the near term.

#20 Noraj

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:16 PM

I'd really like some analysis from anyone who has done tanking in the Beta. I've had time to mess around some, but not a lot. One of my priorities for the new 4.0 tanking guide is to have a strong section discussion the tanking rotation. 9/6 will no longer exist and the rotation will be largely driven on the availability of Holy Power and the optimal abilities and times to use abilities that take advantage of Holy Power. This is something I very much want to get right as soon as possible because that will have the largest impact on tank performance in the near term.


Theck has already posted his current Cataclysm Matlab breakdowns over at Maintankadin. While more input is always better, it's fairly safe to say that his work is at the very minimum an excellent jumping-off point.

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