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[WOTLK 4.0] Balance Discussion


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#1 Hamlet

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 11:28 PM

(EDIT: Guide moved to TTT forum, link below).

Patch-current discussion thread. All topics related to current Moonkin raiding go here.

My Moonkin raiding guide is maintained here:
http://elitistjerks....pdated_4_0_1_a/

Anyone posting should have good familiarity with the current state of Moonkin theory, either from this guide or from anywhere else. At the very least, do not ask questions that are directly answered in the guide; they will be infracted.

#2 Erdluf

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 02:53 AM

Fantastic!

Last sentence of "Stats/Crit" needs some rework. Change "crate" to "crit", and I think you mean to say that crit is substantially weaker than haste.

Jewelcrafting: Now Brilliant, not Runed. Bonus is 42 Int instead of 48 SP.

Edit: Under "Talent Details" I believe Starfall "splash" has gone away. Certainly the target hit by the big star is no longer self-splashed.

#3 jileen

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 04:26 AM

well..excuse me.

I remember that in the descibe of starfall..Blizzard had remove the splash damage away?

so, you said "If those targets are tightly clumped, you will additionally benefit from splash damage. "

I think it's a little mistake?

#4 Hamlet

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 04:53 AM

Bunch of minor edits, and redid Profession section.

#5 Arythorn

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 05:07 AM

Regarding professions, I thought I had read Engineering tinkers could now be used in addition to rather than in replacement of other enchants with 4.0. This should raise it up a bit in value (+27 sp, +48 haste, +24 crit), and would be a correction if this is true.

EDIT: Confirmed that it *can* be done on PTR. Don't know for sure if that is bugged or as intended though.
Moonkin PoV Raid Videos found at: Moonkin PoV Vids and Arythorn Youtube Channel
Calc's Moonkin Guide found at: Calculated Balance PvE Guide at TheMoonkinRepository
Calculatéd Armory:http://us.battle.net...ulated/advanced

#6 Hamlet

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 05:51 AM

Hmm, that would make it by far the best profession.

#7 Arythorn

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 06:06 AM

These -- Synapse Springs - Spells - Sigrie

and these:

Quick Cogwheel - Items - Sigrie

Fractured Cogwheel - Items - Sigrie

Smooth Cogwheel - Items - Sigrie

are also interesting.

EDIT: Cogwheel items are apparently only for iLVL 359 epic engineering-only helms so initially interesting as we go into heroics and then less interesting as we get into tier gear and they add no value. Glove tinker looks fairly nice however.
Moonkin PoV Raid Videos found at: Moonkin PoV Vids and Arythorn Youtube Channel
Calc's Moonkin Guide found at: Calculated Balance PvE Guide at TheMoonkinRepository
Calculatéd Armory:http://us.battle.net...ulated/advanced

#8 Hamlet

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 06:09 AM

Yeah, I was going to worry about level 85 bonuses later.

Can you confirm Hyperspeeds and Arachnoweave both stack on top of normal enchants now?

#9 Arythorn

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 06:15 AM

Tonight on PTR confirmed that other enchants could currently be stacked ontop of cloak, glove, and boot tinkers. Again, I don't know if it is a bug or not but it can definitely happen atm. Rooting around the net to see if I can find any official looking commentary on the matter.
Moonkin PoV Raid Videos found at: Moonkin PoV Vids and Arythorn Youtube Channel
Calc's Moonkin Guide found at: Calculated Balance PvE Guide at TheMoonkinRepository
Calculatéd Armory:http://us.battle.net...ulated/advanced

#10 Hamlet

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 06:40 AM

Looking at 85 professions now, things stay roughly the same. All the bonuses should be around twice what they are now--80 Int for each profession or equivalent (except for gathering).

The oddball is Engineering. It looks like they're putting all the DPS gains into those glove enchants and giving non-DPS enchants in all the other slots. But they need to make the level 80 glove/boot ones unusable somehow or else we'll just use those anyway. Also, the Int glove enchant is 96 Int on average, which is already better than the other professions.

#11 hec

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 08:54 AM

quick question concerning the spec.
wouldn't 2/2 in blessing of the grove (6% increase in direct MF damage) be beneficial at any rate since solar beam and fungal growth are pretty much worthless in a raiding environment?

#12 Hoedown

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 09:41 AM

Not sure if you've had this answered yet, but on the PTR atm you can reforge hit to spirit on items.

And I would have to agree with the above post, Solar Beam and Fungal Growth appear to be worthless in a PVE raiding environment at this time. Better spent elsewhere even if it's a minimal gain. I can't see Solar Beam affecting bosses or the Fungal Growth slowing them. Trash maybe, but not anything important.

#13 MÃ nze

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 09:45 AM

Nitro Boots are only run speed boost now :
Spoiler

You can also use as one of 2 gems to meet your meta requirement, its more or less 10stamina for free.
I would also like to see Balance Power Tracker in the addons section, its really helpfull to get used to the new eclipse mechanics, at least till SSA gets the same funtionality.

#14 Hoedown

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 09:50 AM

I would also like to see Balance Power Tracker in the addons section, its really helpfull to get used to the new eclipse mechanics, at least till SSA gets the same funtionality.


Default unit frames gives you the same exact thing on PTR. Not sure if i really need an addon to give me the exact same HUD. It's moveable i guess, nothing more really.

#15 Celdhyrean

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 10:52 AM

E&M : WM currently applies the debuff. I think this warrants to be noted somewhere (both here and maybe with some tips for AoE situations as currently only DKs can AE debuff, and since we will have the ability to plant the mushrooms in advance). Edit : oops, forgot that we don't get tham before 85 anyway :/
NB : i only checked on beta, didn't check on PTR.

Talent details for Lunar shower :

Lunar Shower: If the buff is not you

-> if the buff is not on you.
The whole thing could be a bit clearer maybe (it gets clear when reading the whole paragraph but at first i didn't get what you meant with that). Maybe reword "buff on you" to something like "procced" ? "To proc/activate the buff, cast MF/Sunfire, to stack it..."

Glyphs : Glyph of Moonfire is given as one of the strong glyphs, but wouldn't that lower our Lunar Shower dps too ? Maybe add a note that's it's bad for movement fights. Thoughb LS dps shouldn't be a big part of our total dps in PvE as of now so maybe not that important.

45.9 mastery rating adds 1.5% to our Eclipse bonus. Because Eclipse only affects around half of our spells

Could be clarified in that the "half" is due to uptime and not to Eclipse only affecting W and SF (as it is now). "Because we will only be under Eclipse 50% of the time" or something like that.

#16 Starfox

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 11:04 AM

Nitro Boots are only run speed boost now :

Spoiler

Engineering tinkers are now a different class than enchants, so each item can have echant AND engi tinker at the same time
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#17 MÃ nze

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 11:23 AM

Engineering tinkers are now a different class than enchants, so each item can have echant AND engi tinker at the same time


My point was that you don't get the +24 crit anymore, which are still mentioned in the professions section.

E&M : WM currently applies the debuff. I think this warrants to be noted somewhere (both here and maybe with some tips for AoE situations as currently only DKs can AE debuff, and since we will have the ability to plant the mushrooms in advance).

Affliction warlocks have same ability as well : Jinx
I guess it will end up them providing the debuff on some aoe havy fights, since it just got far more range, then WM do.

#18 Suatha

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 03:14 PM

Arawethion,

I had some questions on your choice of talents WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie
.

You currently have 3 points in Owlkin Frenzy. From what you had posted, you stated that many of the boss abilities do not proc this ability. This ability seems to have more use in a PvP environment rather than raiding. Would it be better to put these points into either Moonglow, Dreamstate, or Furor? In addition, there is the 1 point that you placed in Fungal Growth. This is another ability that seems to have a better place in a PvP spec. If you drop Owlkin Frenzy and Fungal Growth there are now 4 points that can be placed elsewhere.

From what I am seeing in the Balance tree, there is nothing to give Balance Druid's addition mana regen, other than the 12% from Euphoria upon gaining either Solar or Lunar eclipse. While I do not have any spreadsheet data to back up my research, I have been working on the Beta client with my current gear set, and by sticking to the needed rotation my mana seems to disappear fairly quickly.

For this reason, wouldn't those 4 extra points be better served by putting 2/3 Moonglow & 2/3 Furor. This would give a 6% mana cost reduction on damaging/healing spells and give our mana pool a 10% increase.

To include the change in talents and the addition of glyphs, here is the new tree:

WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie


#19 Hamlet

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 03:23 PM

More minor edits scattered throughout. Remembered to include Astral Leather in Int figures. Changed head/shoulder enchants to the healer versions (Int/Spirit). Removed point in Fungal Growth since we don't have Wild Mushroom.

I had some questions on your choice of talents


I'm currently working under the assumption that mana is a nonissue at level 80. Once you get above level 80, spell costs grow quickly, and at level 85 we'll probably be taking all available mana talents.

Owlkin Frenzy is a weak filler talent, but still should add some DPS (probably more than Blessing of the Grove).

#20 Hamlet

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 03:36 PM

The sheet still has 931 base MP5, which is the L85 value. The L80 value is 174 MP5. I'll put up a new version at some point, but the rotation is still mana-positive with raid buffs (even assuming Blessing of Might is weaker at L80, I'm not sure what that value is).




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