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[WOTLK 4.0] Balance Discussion


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#21 Kluian

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 03:13 AM

Weren't people reporting Eclipse uptime to be around 66%? Not sure if the rotation also involves casting the dots before you leave, but that extends some of the eclipse use.

This was just in regard to your statement that mastery rating was worse than crit.

#22 footstomp

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 02:21 PM

I have a question, with the Talsiman of the Resurgance's int now be amazingly more useful, is this trinket way better now for people who don't have access to some of the higher trinkets.

Also, and I have not checked the lastest build of the PTR, but the Flask of the North was only giving me 40 instead of 47.

#23 Arythorn

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 02:48 PM

Yes, Talisman of Resurgence will suck less now :)

As to the Alchemy piece, good catch -- Flask of the North has indeed changed to 40 INT instead of 47 sp (which is a positive change really). Frost Wyrm is still 125 sp. Double-duration flasks (Mixology) are bugged and not functioning.
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#24 Cdin

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 05:48 PM

Just a couple of edits/disagreements:

Under "Overall damage multiplier (Nature/Arcane):" the number at the end is correct but the equation includes Master Shapeshifter, which is incorrect.

Under Glyphs:
I disagree with the comment about the Glyph of Starsurge. I think it is much more situational then you imply. For example, it could be very useful during Saurfang if it allows you to pop Starfall for each add phase. However, if it doesn't then it's a completely useless because you obviously want to save Starfall for that phase.

Under Gems:
At level 85 skipping socket bonuses will probably be the standard since the secondary stats get very devalued when compared to Int. At level 80 I don't see that being true. The only time I found it to be favorable to skip the socket bonuses at level 80 was if the item was a Double Yellow, Triple Yellow, or had secondary stat socket bonus.

That said, all of these difference are very small and probably not worth really debating.

Under Mods & Tools:
I realized you haven't changed this section yet, but if you get a chance I would add the Mod Balance Power Tracker.
Balance Power Tracker : Cataclysm Beta : WoWInterface Downloads

It's a nice little addon that is a big improvement over the Blizzard UI.
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#25 Hamlet

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 05:56 PM

Yeah, it's probably simplest you say you should just color-match at 80 as long as the socket bonus is spellpower.

I'll try out that addon today when I'm redoing my UI for tomorrow.

#26 conghaile

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 09:20 PM

You can plug in the following urls for the missing wowhead thumbnails at least until they switch Cata over to the live website:

Glyph of Starsurge "http://cata.wowhead.com/item=45603"
Brilliant Cardinal Ruby "http://cata.wowhead.com/item=40123"

On the live website they will show Glyph of Nourish and Brilliant King's Amber.

#27 Hamlet

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 10:13 PM

Yeah, I was just going to wait, because linking the pre-transformation versions of those itemID's might confuse people.

#28 Maax

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 10:52 PM

Yes, Talisman of Resurgence will suck less now :)


Also Darkmoon Card: Greatness and Pandora's Plea.

#29 Hoedown

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 11:20 PM

Quick question about the Spell queing section. Does this mean that stop casting macros will be broken? Such as...

/cast Starsurge
/stopcasting
/cast wrath

#30 Royalite

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:29 AM

http://treebarkjacke...atch-4-0-guide/

Rebirth can only be used once every 30 minutes, and once used, puts all of the Rebirths in the raid on cooldown. That is, all druids in a group share the same 30 minute cooldown.


I don't know if this is true or not for 4.0 but if someone can confirm it, it probably would be a good idea to include it.

#31 Hamlet

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:58 AM

http://treebarkjacke...atch-4-0-guide/

I don't know if this is true or not for 4.0 but if someone can confirm it, it probably would be a good idea to include it.


I've never heard that. See if you can find a source. It would be pretty odd though.

#32 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:01 AM

As far as addon's go, you could add ForteXorcist or DoTimers to the list. They aren't quite as minimalist as SquawkandAwe, but they are definite alternatives to consider.

#33 ryd3l

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 08:24 AM

I've never heard that. See if you can find a source. It would be pretty odd though.


In beta Rebirth works like a raid/group-wide potion cooldown wise (or at least it does in heroics). When one druid uses it, the others have it greyed out and unusable until end of combat, no 30min cd for them though

#34 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 08:34 AM

Does this also include Soulstone effects?

#35 MÃ nze

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:21 AM

pre 4.0 yes. Post 4.0, the 26 INT provides greater than the 30 sp on the head and the 21 INT provides greater than the 24 sp on the shoulders (plus some crit in both cases). The crit is not as high as the 35 total crit from the other head/shoulder enchants but, with Reforging, 36 points of Spirit is greater than 35 points of Crit. No, I can't directly Reforge the stats gained from these enchants but if I make up 36 spirit/hit on these enchants, it could enable me to Reforge 40% of the Spirit on say Boots of Unnatural Growth - Item - World of Warcraft to say 30 points of Haste (which is a superior stat to crit for the record).

All in all the enchants listed are better pound for pound than the old enchants -- especially if you are trying to make up hit and still even if you are fine on hit due to Reforging mechanics.


Well, it depends on your gear.We are speaking about 1sp gain.
If you still over hitcap after reforging all the spirit/hit on your gear, Kirin Tor/SoHodir enchants will be better choice.

As of lvl 85 enchants you don´t have any choices, since there are only : 65 Int / 30 Crit Head- and 50 Int / 25 Haste Soulderenchants (130 Int / 25 Haste if you have Inscription).

p.s. Another interesting fact about incription: found that item in the wowhead database. It apears to be Inscription ony lvl359 idol, yeha its marked as relic, but i asume thats just some kind of generalisation, so shamans could use it too. Might be worth taking this into proffesions section.

#36 ryd3l

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:25 AM

p.s. Another interesting fact about incription: found that item in the wowhead database. It apears to be Inscription ony lvl359 idol, yeha its marked as relic, but i asume thats just some kind of generalisation, so shamans could use it too. Might be worth taking this into proffesions section.


Shamans, DKs, Druids and Pallies all use relics in the ranged slot now instead of one type of gear each.

And on the Soulstone shared cd: I think so, but I'm not sure. I'll test it after heroic id reset later today

#37 rookie1

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 12:21 PM

I can confirm as of PTR build 13164 (and its 12 oct EU) you can indeed enchant over Engi Tinker's. and since it goes live 2morrow for US.

#38 Arythorn

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 12:58 PM

Well, it depends on your gear.We are speaking about 1sp gain.
If you still over hitcap after reforging all the spirit/hit on your gear, Kirin Tor/SoHodir enchants will be better choice.


It doesn't depend on gear. Let me take another swing at explaining why. The 47 INT (combining both enchants) is superior to the 54 sp by more than just the 1 sp. That 47 INT also provides roughly .33% crit (or ~15 crit rating), not to mention a higher mana pool and more regen (though those matter less at level 80 than they will at 85). So, 55 sp and 15 crit versus 54 sp. That side of the enchants clearly favors the enchant listed in the guide. If we take the 35 crit rating and subtract the equivalent of 15 crit rating we got from INT, that leaves us 20 crit versus 36 spirit.

Again, if I'm already over the hit cap or exactly at the hit cap, those 36 points of spirit are still better than 20 crit. Having those 36 points of spirit on the enchants will allow me to reforge 36 points of spirit or hit somewhere else in my gear to 36 points of haste. I really don't see any situation where Kirin Tor/Hodir are better anymore.

In short, 55 sp, 15 crit, 36 spirit is greater than 54 sp and 35 crit. The spell power comparison is favorable and, with reforging mechanics, 51 points of secondary stat value is greater than 35.
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#39 Kluian

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:49 PM

The raid CD on rebirth seems kind of odd. You kind of gain an advantage in 10 man with regards to battle rezes (resing 1 guy in 10 man has a much bigger impact than rezing 1 guy in 25).

Did anyone test a 25 man raid on beta/PTR? Perhaps there are more CD's available per encounter in the larger raid. Like 2-3 per attempt.

#40 Arythorn

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 02:19 PM

While I agree that Bres could be more than a bit of a raid crutch at 10 min cooldown and mostly agree with it going back to 30 minutes, a shared single lockout amongst a 25 man raid does seem like the pendulum swung a bit too far the other way.

On another front, if anyone cares to see the rotation in action, the vid I put together for PTR build 13033 pretty much still applies for 4.0 rotation:

YouTube - Boomkin Cataclysm Rotation PTR 13033

No, my live UI does not look like that -- I went a bit obnoxious on the size and placement of Power Auras in an effort to show clearly the relation between cooldowns, trinket procs, eclipse procs, dot refreshes, etc. Though I will say, I still like the placement of the IceHUD Eclipse bar better than anything else I've seen to date. I also find the combo of ForteXorcist and Power Auras to be more configurable than Squawk and Awe or the like (I just scale the auras way down and move them for my live UI).
Moonkin PoV Raid Videos found at: Moonkin PoV Vids and Arythorn Youtube Channel
Calc's Moonkin Guide found at: Calculated Balance PvE Guide at TheMoonkinRepository
Calculatéd Armory:http://us.battle.net...ulated/advanced




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