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[WOTLK 4.0] Balance Discussion


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#41 Ereshmilor

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:38 PM

Well, it depends on your gear.We are speaking about 1sp gain.
If you still over hitcap after reforging all the spirit/hit on your gear, Kirin Tor/SoHodir enchants will be better choice.

It doesn't depend on gear. Let me take another swing at explaining why. The 47 INT (combining both enchants) is superior to the 54 sp by more than just the 1 sp. That 47 INT also provides roughly .33% crit (or ~15 crit rating), not to mention a higher mana pool and more regen (though those matter less at level 80 than they will at 85). So, 55 sp and 15 crit versus 54 sp. That side of the enchants clearly favors the enchant listed in the guide. If we take the 35 crit rating and subtract the equivalent of 15 crit rating we got from INT, that leaves us 20 crit versus 36 spirit.

Again, if I'm already over the hit cap or exactly at the hit cap, those 36 points of spirit are still better than 20 crit. Having those 36 points of spirit on the enchants will allow me to reforge 36 points of spirit or hit somewhere else in my gear to 36 points of haste. I really don't see any situation where Kirin Tor/Hodir are better anymore.

In short, 55 sp, 15 crit, 36 spirit is greater than 54 sp and 35 crit. The spell power comparison is favorable and, with reforging mechanics, 51 points of secondary stat value is greater than 35.


Like Münze said, when you have reforged everything and you are still over the hitcap Kirin Tor/SoHodir enchants is better, because Spirit has no use.

#42 Kluian

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:34 PM

I wonder if anyone plans on making a CLCret style addon for moonkins. Basically informing you on what your current and next cast should be, configured to match how the eclipse bar will be positioned after those casts finish.

#43 Celdhyrean

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:47 PM

Like Münze said, when you have reforged everything and you are still over the hitcap Kirin Tor/SoHodir enchants is better, because Spirit has no use.

Sure, but will this realistically happen with level 80 raid gear ? The cap is going to be over 210/180 hit rating higher than currently (depending on alliance or horde cap). Since you can discount 40% from your spirit from gear due to reforging, this means that you'd need to have ~300 spirit from gear (discounting heroic presence) before it becomes useless.

Since moonkins have avoided spirit items where possible up till now, we should only have a few pieces with spirit to cover that gap.
At the 264 gear level non-spirit alternatives where plentiful (even when looking at leather pieces only) so those moonkins should be far from that issue.
I seem to remember that BiS 277 gearing relied more on spirit items, the SimCraft template for example brings a little less than 270 spirit from gear. Adding the enchants plus whatever overcap hit you had could make you exceed the usefull amount of spirit.

Conclusion would be that the spirit enchant choice could be a problem for respeccing trees or mostly 277 horde moonkins. Others should be fine.

#44 Hamlet

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:53 PM

To help plan out reforging a little, since it can get a bit confusing to pick which items to wear.

You generally want the sum of Spirit and hit rating, on your gear (unreforged) to be less than around 694 (because reforging every piece will take that down to 416, +30 from two blue gems and a chest enchant to hit cap).

As long as you're below that amount, you want to swap in a higher-ilvl item even if it has Spirit/hit (because you'll be ultimately better off by using the better item and reforging hit away from two items to stay at cap). Basically, our stats are very fungible due to Reforging, and Spirit is a good stat, so you're likely to wear a lot of items that have it.

----

You can use this algorithm to take care of your gear/gems/reforging/enchanting today:
1) In each slot, put on your best item, ignoring the hit cap. This will generally be your highest-ilvl leather spellpower item (I'd keep 4T10 if you have it though).
2) Have two blue gems (a Nightmare Tear and a Purified) and a +10 chest enchant, and no other Spirit gems/enchants. If you have other things socketed, just ignore them by subtracting them off for now.
3A) If under the hit cap of 446, great. Move up to the cap by a) reforging crit to Spirit, B) replacing crit head/shoulder enchants with Spirit ones, or c) putting Purified gems into blue sockets with bonuses.
3B) If you were over the hit cap, proceed with the following steps until you reach it:
4) Swap out any hit or Spirit piece for an equal-ilvl crit piece if you have one.
5) If your hit rating on the character sheet is greater than 724, swap out hit or Spirit items for non-hit items of lower ilvl (whichever are the closest ones you have), until below that amount.
6) Reforge Spirit/hit to haste on any hit/crit or Spirit/crit items.
7) Reforge Spirit/hit to crit on any hit/haste or Spirit/haste items. You will now be at or slightly under the hit cap.
8) Since reforging come in chunks, you might wind up a little bit under the cap. Swap in some blue gems or a Spirit head/shoulder enchant to put you squarely at it.

#45 Cube

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:57 PM

I seem to have missed it, but what is the exact percentage bonus for Astral Leather bonus? I'm assuming that it's 5%, but cannot find it in the original post.

#46 Hamlet

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:58 PM

It's 5%.

#47 Kluian

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:58 PM

Is 18 spirit boot enchant better than 12 hit / crit? Assuming you can get 6 haste in the gained hit from reforging.

#48 Adoriele

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:00 PM

I wonder if anyone plans on making a CLCret style addon for moonkins. Basically informing you on what your current and next cast should be, configured to match how the eclipse bar will be positioned after those casts finish.


There's an addon named SquawkHard which used to do this. I have no idea when it was last updated (it may be up-to-date).

#49 Royalite

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:57 PM

There's an addon named SquawkHard which used to do this. I have no idea when it was last updated (it may be up-to-date).


That one hasn't been updated in a year or so.

Owl Advisor has been filling that niche for the last few patches but I don't know the authors plans for 4.0.
I'd say currently no one has one publicly available for 4.0 currently.

#50 Erdluf

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:20 PM

For "tell me what button to press" Ovale at Curseforge previously did this.

I have not tried the current one. Taking a quick look at its source (r266, Druide,lua and Ovale.lua), the mechanics for a 4.x rotation are mostly in place (including predicting that the cast-in-progress will proc Eclipse), but the priority list is not very good.

Problems with the current priority list (by my reading).

- No SS during Eclipse, unless Shooting Stars is about to expire.
- No IS during Lunar.
- Only time a DoT may be clipped is for MF during movement.
- The "moving" priority list does not include IS (even without clipping)
- A nuke-in-progress that will proc Eclipse may be followed by a DoT recommendation.
- No option to make Starfall Lunar-only.
- No Thorns option
- No low-mana rotation

None of that looks terribly hard to fix, so there should be something better before too long.

#51 Hamlet

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:05 PM

Migrating the OP to TTT article now that WoW 3.0 is gone. I assume this will still be the 4.0 Balance discussion thread.

#52 Maga

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:08 PM

concerning new gemming, since it was mentioned earlier that as long as lvl 80 ICC gear is still what is being handled socket bonuses are not to be ignored and it actually makes sense, so things should be like:

1 nightmare tear+purified dreadstone for meta activation
20 int yellow gems (Brilliant King's Amber) in whatever sockets we previously ignored socket bonuses in (blue sockets other than the 2 filled with the meta matchers)
20 int yellow gems (Brilliant King's Amber) in yellow sockets
12 spellpower/10 int orange gems (Luminous Ametrine) in all red sockets

that should put us at a better position than going all out 20 ints.

#53 Hamlet

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:20 PM

Int is red stat on gems now.

#54 MÃ nze

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:50 PM

At certain levels of haste, our DoT's gain extra ticks. With 3/3 Genesis and Moonkin Form, and no Glyph of Starfire, they get an 11th tick at 365 haste rating, a 12th tick at 712 rating, and a 13th tick at 1059 rating. When affected by Nature's Grace, the 14th tick comes at 493 rating, the 15th tick at 795 rating, and the 16th tick at 1097 rating.


@ Arawethion

So the 14th tick comes at 1406 and 17th at 1399 when affected by NG ? ( I'm not sure if my math is right, 2nd value is smaller then w/o NG o0) 1.4k haste seems pretty doable with BiS gear and reforging all the crit/spirit (e.g double haste trinkets or reforging Phylactery, which gives lots of extra haste), could you pls include those values for the sake of completeness?

After checking lether loot available atm Handguards of Winter's Respite seem to beat setgloves. So 4PC t10 + those are BiS combination now i guess? Item Comparison

#55 Hamlet

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:57 PM

I'm using Leather of Stitched Scourge Parts - Item - World of Warcraft because I just happened to have them, they're almost identical.

I'll check on those haste numbers in a minute.

#56 Hamlet

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 08:30 PM

1398 for the 16th (I had the number wrong before) tick with NG is correct, and 1406 for the 14th tick without NG. Will add to the post.

#57 Hamlet

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:11 PM

Someone reminded me that Black Magic can be used on 1H weapons. Does that make it better than 63sp? At a glance, I think so.

#58 MÃ nze

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:55 PM

250 haste for 10sec with 35sec icd and 35% procrate according to wowhead-> 250*10/35=71.4 haste, so yeah probably better.
But the short duration of the buff could also be pain in the ass in encouters involving movement or some rng interrups or stunmechanics. But thats actually old news. I would say on short duration/ tankandspank fights it might be better and its probably equal to 63sp on all other encounters.

#59 GotlandsUgglan

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:22 PM

For "tell me what button to press" Ovale at Curseforge previously did this.

..
None of that looks terribly hard to fix, so there should be something better before too long.


There is a bug as well since Ovale is thinking that Star Surge is "smart" so the predictable energy is wrong when in an eclipse.

It is easy to change and i am currently working on a moonkin script at the moment but i need to test the some things

First how should Dots be handled.
When should they not be refreshed?
Is it worth clipping Is to get 2 within the Lunar eclipse?
Which eclipse to procc first or should we start in Lunar/Solar? Starting in Solar means that we can pop Starfall but starting in Lunar means that IS will be buffed at start.

I should have a updated rotation in Ovale forum tomorrow if someone want to review it.

#60 Hamlet

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 04:14 AM

So, does anyone else not have Insect Swarm? :P




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