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FaceShooter and hunter shot priorities in Cataclysm


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#1 Midnight

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 07:59 AM

This thread is meant to get feedback about FaceShooter in general and specifically to gather and discuss hunter rotations/priorities for the different specs in cataclysm. FaceShooter basically implements a priority list of shots linked to conditions and parses them from top to bottom until it hits a condition that evaluates to true and suggests that shot. Thus the quality of FS relies heavily on the quality of those priority lists.

Basic overview of the rotations:

SV: KS > ES > SpS/BA > AS > CoS
- If neither KS nor ES are possible and your focus is greater than 75 use SpS/BA/AS if it´s lower cast CoS

MM: CS -> SS -> SS -> X -> SS -> SS -> X -> CS
- not really a priority list but a rotation with some variable fillers.
- Try to always string your SS in pairs in order to keep the ISS buff up and fill the holes with MMM proc AimS, SpS and AS.
- Try to avoid both overcapping focus as well as not having enough focus to cast CS when it comes off CD

BM: KS > KC > SpS > AS > CoS
- If neither KS nor KC are possible and your focus is greater than 65 use SpS/AS if it´s lower cast CoS


FS in it´s current version 0.1.4 implements them as follows:

Independant of spec as long you´re out of combat it first checks if the target has HM or MfD up and if it´s still running for more than a set (default 15s) time. If that´s not the case it suggests to cast HM

SV:
if KS is off CD and target health is at or below 20% and focus won´t overcap in 1s
--> cast KS
if ES is off CD and either focus > ES cost or LnL charges left and last ES cast has been two or more seconds ago
--> cast ES
if SpS is not on target and focus > (SpS cost + ES cost - focus regenerated until ES is ready)
--> cast SpS
if BA is off CD and focus > (BA cost + ES cost - focus regenerated until ES is ready)
--> cast BA
if HM is not on target or running out in less than 15s and there´s no MfD on target and focus won´t overcap in 1s
--> cast HM
if focus > (BA cost + ES cost - focus regenerated until ES is ready) and player has no LnL buff
--> cast AS
if KC is off CD and focus > (BA cost + ES cost - focus regenerated until ES is ready) and player has LnL buff
--> cast KC
if player level > 80
--> cast CoS
if none of the above
--> cast SS

BM:
if KS is off CD and target health is at or below 20% and focus won´t overcap in 1s
--> cast KS
if KC is off CD and focus > KC cost
--> cast KC
if SpS is not on target and focus > (SpS cost + KC cost - focus regenerated until KC is ready)
--> cast SpS
if HM is not on target or running out in less than 15s and there´s no MfD on target and focus won´t overcap in 1s
--> cast HM
if focus > (AS cost + KC cost - focus regenerated until KC is ready)
--> cast AS
if player level > 80
--> cast CoS
if none of the above
--> cast SS

MM:
if KS is off CD and target health is at or below 20% and focus won´t overcap in 1s
--> cast KS
if CS is off CD and focus > CS cost
--> cast CS
if MMM buff is up and won´t overcap in 1s and either (no double SS string is broken or another SS would overcap player)
--> cast AimS
if SpS is not on target and (SpS cost + CS cost - focus regenerated until CS is ready) and either (no double SS string is broken or another SS would overcap player)
--> cast SpS
if not last two shots have both been SS and finishing a double SS string won´t overcapand player
--> cast SS
if HM is not on target or running out in less than 15s and there´s no MfD on target and MfD is not talented
--> cast HM
if focus > (SpS cost + CS cost - focus regenerated until CS is ready)
--> cast AS
none of the above
--> cast SS

Notes and things still to do:
  • It looks like using trap launcher + explosive trap is actually better dps than using BA. I could just substitute it for BA in the SV priority list if that consensus. How about other specs though? BA is only available to SV hunters but trap launcher + trap is possible for MM and BM too, is it beneficial to try and cast that on CD for them too? If so, exactly where is its priority?
  • KC vs AS. KC is better for BM and AS is propably better for SV but how about MM? I´m not including KC in my MM rotation so far but it might as well be worth it for all I know.

I´ll add more things to the list when they come to my mind or someone makes a good point.
Even though this is primarily meant to discuss hunter priorities feel free to comment/discuss/criticize on anything else concerning FS.
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#2 Tizoc

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 08:38 AM

Thanks for the topic Midnight.

I want to talk about ISS issue for BM. Pathing only gives %3 haste but ISS %15. Even with %20+ uptime ISS gives much haste than pathing. Also cobra shot can be cast at every 6 seconds for serpent sting (if you wish to not reapply serpent sting). Taking ISS rather than Pathing seems reasonable at this point. But cobra shot does more damage than steady i suppose ( because of armor mitigation) and casting two steady in a row much likely makes BM focus capped. With having few special abilities that cost focus on BM, what kind of priority or rotation can make ISS benefitial over Pathing.

Also my english is not that good, sorry for this mass of sentences.

#3 Nooska

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 08:56 AM

For all 3 specs, you need to check for focus overflow before choosing KS. While KS is very nice damage, it is still on the GCD (and will stay therE) but it's focus free, and the oneplace where we (and everyone else) do not want resource overflow is in the burn/execute phase. I would suggest simply adding it behind the primary focus costing shot for each spec, that way it will always be used as soon as possible without overflowing focus. SV would possibly want to use it as a separator shot in LnL depending on focus again.

#4 Midnight

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 09:38 AM

Makes sense, the question is wether it´s more beneficial to waste some regeneration or delay the KS. I guess that depends on the damage difference between KS and the focus dump in question and needs further research. In any case I think a check if casting KS will result in an overflow is better than simply putting it below the focus dump because at least the way it´s implemented now the focus dump isn´t used only when it´s absolutely necessary but when there´s at least enough focus to warrant using the signature shot right after it should it come off CD (should be about 62). So in most cases using the focus dump won´t be a "last resort" and using KS won´t result in a focus loss.
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#5 hotmetal

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 12:49 PM

  • It looks like using trap launcher + explosive trap is actually better dps than using BA. I could just substitute it for BA in the SV priority list if that consensus. How about other specs though? BA is only available to SV hunters but trap launcher + trap is possible for MM and BM too, is it beneficial to try and cast that on CD for them too? If so, exactly where is its priority?


Doesn't it make more sense to use [Glyph of Immolation Trap] + [Immolation Trap] + Trap Launcher?

Whether or not it does more damage, someone would need to test but on bosses that have to be
moved around, explosive trap probably shouldn't be suggested as being part of the rotation.

Does anyone know if glyph-ed [Immolation Trap] does more damage than BA or explosive trap?

#6 Nefernet

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 01:10 PM

I have a question regarding Kill Shot and the glyph of Kill Shot in a PvE context.

I just saw on MMO Champion the list of glyphs for 4.0.1 patch and if we suppose that the glyphs won't change until Cataclysm, glyph of KS is actually :

If the damage from your Kill Shot fails to kill a target at or below 20% health, your Kill Shot's cooldown is instantly reset. This effect has a 6 sec cooldown.


I'm not very gifted with math skills and usually don't understand how you test things, so that's why I usually don't post here but just read and trust, but reading this glyph, I had a question :
On a boss, do you think it is better to fire the second KS immediately after the glyph procced, or rather wait for 6 seconds until the internal cd of the glyph came back and fire the procced KS ?
As I understand the glyph at the moment, using it, I would fire a KS every 6 seconds instead of 2 every 10 seconds.

And if I understand well what you said, you have a risk of focus overflow if firing 2 KS in a row and propose to delay KS after a focus dump. So would using that glyph's proc as soon as possible delay KS even more and lower the number of KS we will be able to squeeze in the last 20% of a boss life ?
When if we'd wait 6 seconds for the glyph's internal cd, we could use our focus dumps in between.

I hope I'm clear enough, not sure. Has anyone already tested this glyph. Thanks for any input.
Quick edit : I'm not in the Beta and did very few trys on PTR as I had no time sadly.

#7 Lilbitters

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 02:07 PM

Does anyone know if glyph-ed [Immolation Trap] does more damage than BA or explosive trap?


From testing on beta at level 81 (didn't happen to have a level 80 hunter left) and at 85, Explosive Trap far outshines either glyphed or unglyphed Immolation Trap or Black Arrow. Damage-wise, with Toxicology, it is possible that the raw damage of Black Arrow will be more damage than Explosive Trap (because critting Explosive Trap ticks are only 150% damage where as Black Arrow crits are 200% damage).

However, Explosive Trap ticks every 2 seconds for 10 seconds, unglyphed Immolation trap is every 3 seconds for 15 seconds, and Black Arrow is also every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. Therefore, Trap Launcher - Explosive trap at only 10 Focus (when glyphed) will grant 10 chances to proc Lock and Load during a that 24 second period (with 3 points in Resourcefulness) should be better for that reason alone.

And actually, the damage difference between Black Arrow at 35 focus and Glyphed Trap Launcher - Explosive Trap at 10 focus is hardly different at 9000 AP and 18% Mastery at level 85. Black Arrow was doing 6005 to up to 12010 damage (if all 5 ticks crit) in comparison to Explosive Trap doing 7360 to up to 11040 (if all 10 ticks crit) not including the initial damage component which is currently bugged on the beta (although the tooltip displays ~1000 damage, it actually is only doing ~280 damage, the same as when I was naked, even though the tooltip when naked said it should do ~370 damage).


As I understand the glyph at the moment, using it, I would fire a KS every 6 seconds instead of 2 every 10 seconds.


This is true and I have been doing this on the beta for a while now, however, the playstyle feels very clunky and I would prefer them to sync the actual KS CD and the glyph CD by either increasing the damage of KS and making it a 10 second ICD on the Glyph, or by leaving KS damage where it is and just dropping the cooldown to 6 seconds as well to match the glyph.
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#8 Thrabuco

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 03:23 PM

About KS. After reading i thought would be better to fire it only at the Glyph Cooldown, but actually checking for the times it shows me the otherway.
First case would be using it twice and waiting the 10 sec CD to double fire it again.
Second would mean firing KS waiting 6 seconds to fire it again.
** Just a point in here, even if going case 2 at the end of the window (boss death, etc) you'd be firing a double KS anyway since it's still the most damage per shot skill we have yet**

In this 25 sec window case 1 wields 6 shots (w/ extra 2 seconds for next round) and case 2 wields 5 (plus and extra KS if within 5 seconds of a target death).
Extending it to 60 sec window would be:
Case 1 = 12 (w/ extra 4 seconds for next round)
Case 2 = 11 (w/ and extra KS in the very next second, but useless)

I guess not even the risk of focus overflow (1~3 seconds of overcap) would make it better to wait to shoot KS only on glyph CD. The only point of doing it would be if ([ES damage surpasses KS] AND focus>=50), wich its not the case (yet maybe).
Not to point the need of an addon/something to track those 6 seconds.

[TABLE]Case 1 (double KS fire)
0 sec --- Kill Shot (dont kill target - resets CD of Kill Shot) /start of glyph CD tracking/
1 sec --- Kill Shot (dont kill target - dont reset CD of Kill Shot [6sec glyph internal CD] /1st sec of glyph CD/
2 sec --- /2nd sec of glyph CD/
3 sec --- /3rd sec of glyph CD/
4 sec --- /4th sec of glyph CD/
5 sec --- /5th sec of glyph CD/
6 sec [Glyph internal CD comes up but Kill shot still on CD due to default 10 sec ability CD]
7 sec ---
8 sec ---
9 sec ---
10 sec ---
11 sec [Kill Shot CD up] --- Kill Shot (dont kill target - resets CD of Kill Shot) /start of glyph CD tracking/
12 sec --- Kill Shot (dont kill target - dont reset CD of Kill Shot [6sec glyph internal CD] /1st sec of glyph CD/
13 sec --- /2nd sec of glyph CD/
14 sec --- /3rd sec of glyph CD/
15 sec --- /4th sec of glyph CD/
16 sec --- /5th sec of glyph CD/
17 sec [Glyph internal CD comes up but Kill shot still on CD due to default 10 sec ability CD]
18 sec ---
19 sec ---
20 sec ---
21 sec ---
22 sec [Kill Shot CD up] --- Kill Shot (dont kill target - resets CD of Kill Shot) /start of glyph CD tracking/
23 sec --- Kill Shot (dont kill target - dont reset CD of Kill Shot [6sec glyph internal CD] /1st sec of glyph CD/
24 sec --- /2nd sec of glyph CD/
25 sec --- /3rd sec of glyph CD/[/TABLE]


[TABLE]Case 2 (KS only at glyph CD)
0 sec --- Kill Shot (dont kill target - resets CD of Kill Shot) /start of glyph CD tracking/
1 sec --- dont cast KS /1st sec of glyph CD/
2 sec --- /2nd sec of glyph CD/
3 sec --- /3rd sec of glyph CD/
4 sec --- /4th sec of glyph CD/
5 sec --- /5th sec of glyph CD/
6 sec [Glyph internal CD comes up] --- Kill Shot (dont kill target - resets CD of Kill Shot) /start of glyph CD tracking/
7 sec --- dont cast KS /1st sec of glyph CD/
8 sec --- /2nd sec of glyph CD/
9 sec --- /3rd sec of glyph CD/
10 sec --- /4th sec of glyph CD/
11 sec --- /5th sec of glyph CD/
12 sec [Glyph internal CD comes up] --- Kill Shot (dont kill target - resets CD of Kill Shot) /start of glyph CD tracking/
13 sec --- dont cast KS /1st sec of glyph CD/
14 sec --- /2nd sec of glyph CD/
15 sec --- /3rd sec of glyph CD/
16 sec --- /4th sec of glyph CD/
17 sec --- /5th sec of glyph CD/
18 sec [Glyph internal CD comes up] --- Kill Shot (dont kill target - resets CD of Kill Shot) /start of glyph CD tracking/
19 sec --- dont cast KS /1st sec of glyph CD/
20 sec --- /2nd sec of glyph CD/
21 sec --- /3rd sec of glyph CD/
22 sec --- /4th sec of glyph CD/
23 sec --- /5th sec of glyph CD/
24 sec [Glyph internal CD comes up] --- Kill Shot (dont kill target - resets CD of Kill Shot) /start of glyph CD tracking/
25 sec --- Kill Shot (end of window would mean firing off KS anyway)[/TABLE]


Sorry for grammar and i'm still sleepy, will re-check it later.

#9 Guest_Adyssa_*

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 03:44 PM

Shooting KS back to back with the glyph should be better. You shoot the first, wait 1 second, then shoot the second and start the 10 second cooldown. That's 11 seconds total, or average of 1 per 5.5 seconds. Obviously that is better than 1 per 6 seconds, but to see how that plays out you can look at a 1.5 minute sample.

KS - Seconds
1 - 0
2 - 6
3 - 12
4 - 18
5 - 24
6 - 30
7 - 36
8 - 42
9 - 48
10 - 54
11 - 60
12 - 66
13 - 72
14 - 78
15 - 84
16 - 90


1 - 0
2 - 1
3 - 11
4 - 12
5 - 22
6 - 23
7 - 33
8 - 34
9 - 44
10 - 45
11 - 55
12 - 56
13 - 66
14 - 67
15 - 77
16 - 78
17 - 88
18 - 89

Given that it is probably way easier to spam to KSs back to back, that'd probably be the strategy to use.

Edit: Sorry, was writing this while the above post was made. I'll leave it though in case people want to compare different times since I wrote out to the 90 second mark.

#10 Nyth_

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 04:47 PM

[*]I´m still a bit unhappy about ISS uptime for the MM rotation. I know someone in the cataclysm changes thread has suggested to use a rotation rather than a priority list for MM just modifiying it a bit when MMM procs or haste changes but I wonder if it´s not possible to get a better priority implementation than the one I´m using right now too. Any ideas how to get it to naturally result into keeping up ISS better without overcapping or missing a CD for CS. Conditions may include remaining ISS uptime as well as what shots that have been cast before..


Well I was the one talking about a rotation. However the way I found for me works best if you consider haste and priority is to simply force 2 SS's after 1 CS.

1 CS drains 44 focus. 2 SS regen 18 focus which means that if you regen less than 26 focus through passive and other sources you can not be overcapping focus.

26 focus means 6.5 focus/sec*, which is still really generous. In fact I think the only way this can be slightly dangerous is in case of rapid fire + rapid recuperation. But even in those cases you'd have to be at 90+ focus before you used CS which shouldn't be the case if you handled correctly before using CS.

*[e]: Just realized it doesn't matter how much haste you have as the decreased SS cast time should be reversed linear with the increase in passive regen. Ranged speed increases that don't increase focus regen should still increase this buffer.

#11 Salidore

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 05:12 PM

Regarding the Glyph of KS, the solution lies in the fact that the glyph cooldown is longer than half of the KS cooldown.

It will always be better to fire them back to back (assuming that focus overflow isn't an issue here) because of this. You'll be firing 2KS in the space of 1 KS cooldown + 1 GCD (11.5seconds without haste).

If the glyph was less than half the CD of KS (ie <5s) then the opposite would be true, and you'd get to fire a KS at better than double the normal rate.

Now someone needs to decide how much the potential GCD (or two) wasted focus regen would be worth if you found yourself at the cap when it came time to fire KS. This will probably be very hard to quantify, as it depends on what you'd spend that focus on at a point in the rotation.

#12 Fluflis

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 09:16 PM

[*]I´m still a bit unhappy about ISS uptime for the MM rotation. I know someone in the cataclysm changes thread has suggested to use a rotation rather than a priority list for MM just modifiying it a bit when MMM procs or haste changes but I wonder if it´s not possible to get a better priority implementation than the one I´m using right now too. Any ideas how to get it to naturally result into keeping up ISS better without overcapping or missing a CD for CS. Conditions may include remaining ISS uptime as well as what shots that have been cast before.


With 14% haste from gear AND Chimera glyph was : [2x steady - arcane - 2x steady - arcane - chimera ]. With ISS buff +2 % from talents i total 31% haste, making my steady shot time 1.49 second cast. So it is like:

0.0 Chimera (Chimera 9.0 sec on cd)
1.0 Steady Shot (Chimera 8.0 sec on cd)
2.5 Steady Shot (Chimera 6.5 sec on cd)
4.0 Arcane Shot (Chimera 5.0 sec on cd)
5.0 Steady Shot (Chimera 4.0 sec on cd)
6.5 Steady Shot (Chimera 2.5 sec on cd)
8.0 Arcane Shot (Chimera 1.0 sec on cd)
9.0 Chimera Shot

Note that with this splitting of arcane shots, it also helps with not overwritting [Sic 'Em!] buff and lets it get consumed first. This is what i was using as normal rotation, when i didnt have rapid fire. I didnt do any calculations about focus consumed/focus regenerated, but i was 10minutes on the dummy and i wasn't focus starved at any point.

About aimed shot I replaced arcane shot whenever i got MMM, watching 1) not to delay chimera, 2) not to split the 2x steady shots and 3) do it as soon as possible so that next steady shot will start stacking mmm again. Now, how u can implement something like that to the addon, this i don't know :)

#13 Whitefyst

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 10:43 PM

Well, the whole KS decision processing as far as priorities and whether to do them back to back or not with the glyph is really a complicated situation that depends on several factors, including:
- spec and shot priority CDs
- whether trying to maintain ISS or making most use of focus
- cast time of SS/CoS
- regen rate
- whether you are MM specced into Termination
- have the KS glyph with doign back to back KSs
- no latency or human reaction time

Since I am not really familar with the BM or SV rotations, I will be concentrating on my feedback on the MM rotation only.

For the sake of this illustration, I made the following assumptions:
- 20% haste from gear and Pathing
- ISS for another 15% attack speed buff (35% hasted attacks)
- 2/2 Termination for 6 extra focus from SS
- 3/3 Efficiency
- Started KS phase with 100 focus arbitrarily
- Not factoring in AiS from MMM procs since doing fewer SSs (3 per 11s). If one is used, it just replaces the next ArS with saving 22 focus or the third SS with losing 17-18 focus, relatively. Which you replace depends on where you are on focus and which SS triggered it.

With the following being true:
- 5 focus per second regen approximately
- 1.67s SS cast time with no ISS buff
- 1.5s SS cast with ISS buff
- Net CS focus use is 39
- Net ArS focus use is 17
- 1.67 SS focus gain 23.33
- 1.5 SS focus gain 22.5
- Focus needed for ArS then CS is 56 (hence, only doing ArS if at >= 56 focus)

With this information and trying to follow Midnight's rules with the exception of not always forcing the 2nd SS pair, I get the following rotation during the KS phase for a rotation that is concerned more of focus maintenance than ISS maintenance:

(Sorry the table is so ugly since I do not know how to format them in this editor. Any help would be appreviated.)

[Table]
Shot..Start...End....Focus MM
KS......0........1........100
KS......1........2........100
CS......2........3........61
AS......3........4........44
SS......4........5.67.....67.3
SS......5.67...7.33.....90.7
AS......7.33...8.33.....73.7
AS......8.33...9.33.....56.7
SS......9.33..10.83.....79.2
.........10.83..11........80........Waiting for KS CD
KS......11......12........85
KS......12......13........90
CS......13......14........51
SS......14......15.67..74.3
SS......15.67..17.33..97.7
AS......17.33..18.33..80.7
AS......18.33..19.33..63.7
AS......19.33..20.33..46.7
SS......20.33..21.83..69.2
.........21.83..22........70........Waiting for KS CD
KS......22......23........75
KS......23......24........80
CS......24......25........41
SS......35......26.67..64.3
SS......26.67..28.33..87.7
AS......28.33..29.33..70.7
AS......29.33..30.33..53.7
SS......30.33..31.83..76.2
AS......31.83..32.83..59.2
.........32.83..33........60........Waiting for KS CD
KS......33......34........65
KS......34......35........70
CS......35......36........31
SS......36......37.67..54.3
SS......37.67..39.33..77.7
AS......39.33..40.33..60.7
AS......40.33..41.33..43.7
SS......41.33..42.83..66.2
AS......42.83..43.83..49.2
.........43.83..44........50........Waiting for KS CD
KS......44......45........55
KS......45......46........60
CS......46......47........21
SS......47......48.67..44.3
SS......48.67..50.33..67.7
AS......50.33..51.33..50.7
SS......51.33..52.83..73.2
AS......52.83..53.83..56.2
AS......53.83..54.83..39.2
.........54.83..55........40........Waiting for KS CD
KS......55......56........45
KS......56......57........50
CS......57......58........11
SS......58......59.67..34.3
SS......59.67..61.33..57.7
AS......61.33..62.33..40.7
SS......62.33..63.83..63.2
AS......63.83..64.83..46.2
SS......64.83..66.33..69.7........Ideally would switch the previous AS and SS for ISS refresh
KS......66.33..67.33..74.7........No wait for KS CD during focus correction cycle


Observations:
- This is basically a 11s rotation during KS phase that pushes the CS CD back 1s.
- The 11s contains 9 shots - 2 KS, 1CS, 3 SS, and 3 AS with the locations of the SS and AS moving around a little depending on focus
- In the rotation is a 0.17s wait time for KS to get off CD. Hence, this rotation could be supported with a little less haste
- ISS does not have 100% uptime since only 1 SS pair. Uptime is 8s of every 11s or about 73%.
- The 9 shot cycle is somewhat maintainable with losing 10 focus per cycle
- A focus correction cycle exists that shoots a 4th SS instead of a 3rd ArS is done periodically that gains 29.7 focus; hence, it needs to be performed every 4th time cycle
- If switch the last AS and SS around in the correct cycle, and ISS refresh occurs, which increases its uptime slightly to around 80%
- Not including when I arbitrarily started at 100 focus, this rotation has no focus overflow.
- With including in the MMM procs, it is possible that you could get some focus overflow if you do not replace the correct shot between ArS and SS; but if you make the correct choice, then no focus overflow occurs

Now with making sure to do 2 ISS pairs per cycle during the KS phase in order to make sure to still maintain ISS uptime and with back to back KSs, you really get a rotation that looks like:


Shot...Start...End....Focus MM
KS.......0.......1.......50
KS.......1.......2.......50
CS.......2.......3.......11
SS.......3.......4.5....33.5
SS.......4.5....6.......56
AS.......6.......7.......39
AS.......7.......8.......22
SS.......8.......9.5....44.5
SS.......9.5....11.....67
KS.......11.....12.....72


Observations:
- Still an 11s rotation but now with 4 SSs and 2 ArS every cycle
- The rotation gains 22 focus per cycle. Hence, you will get focus overflow with no way around it if you want to maintain ISS uptime.
- Its a tight rotation with 20% haste, so any less haste pushes back KS CD

The choice between the two rotations is whether having a consistent rotation and the 100% ISS uptime is better than the damage difference between doing an ArS instead of an SS 3 out of 4 rotations. Hence, its 3 x (ArS - SS damage) over 44s vs. about 20-27% ISS uptime and the extra autoshots with possible extra WQ procs and GftT focus generation for the pet.

Its hard to evaluate it at the moment without all the balancing done and math modeled, so my choice until I know better would probably be the consistent rotation that takes better advantage of the MM spec abilities of 15% more autoshot damage and WQ, although it wastes a lot of focus, especially when replacing a ArS with a proced AiS. Of course, this is dependent on how much haste you have. It only requires 557 haste rating from gear if you have 3/3 Pathing and 656 if you do not, either of which should be readily obtainable with out gear.

Note that this consistent rotation with at least 20% haste and 100% ISS uptime works well for the regular phase too as shown:


Shot...Start...End....Focus MM
CS.......0.......1.......61
AS.......1.......2.......44
SS.......2.......3.5....60.5
SS.......3.5....5.......77
AS.......5.......6.......60
AS.......6.......7.......43
SS.......7.......8.5....59.5
SS.......8.5....10.....76
CS.......10.....11.....37


Observations:
- I thought that this rotation was focus neutral until i remembered that I forgot to remove the extra 6 focus per SS from Termination from the anlaysis of the previous rotations. This rotation actually loses 24 focus per cycle.
- To counteract this focus loss, roughly 2 out of every 3 cycles requires one of the ArS to be replaced with a SS to regain 10 focus each of thos cycles. However, this pushes back the CS CD by 0.5s. However, with just a little additional haste on gear too just under 21% (676 haste rating), the 5 SS rotation becomes tight with 3/3 Pathing and ISS.
- Additional haste helps make up for latency and human reaction time
- Replacing an ArS with an MMM proc saves 22 focus that cycle and basically counteracts the focus loss that that particular cycle would have had. Hence, MMM procs reduces the number of cycles that require the 5th SS to maintain focus.
- It is a tight rotation without using the CS glyph. Hence, it allows the use of another glyph instead, such as the SS glyph for an additional 10% damage on the special you perform the most at 50% of the shots, or the ArS glyph for 12% damage on the shot you use the 2nd most at 38% of the time.
- Basically, I am going to follow the guideline, that if after the first middle ArS my focus is less than 45 to 50 then I should finish the cycle with 3x SS instead of ArS and SSx2. This regens 49.5 focus to just under 100 before casting CS for the next cycle.

Next to come same philosophy but with looking at non-back to back KS and then the CS glyph. That will be tomorrow though.

Edit: Realized the non-Termination rotation was still adding in the bonus Termination SS focus

#14 Whitefyst

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:17 AM

For the MM rotation, there should probably be an option for the user to decide which has higher priority - maintaining the ISS buff or immediately using the MMM proc. Some people feel that the proc should be used right away even if triggered by the first SS in a pair for ISS while other believe that it is worth giving up 1 proc chance in order to make sure that the ISS buff is refreshed.

You should probably include KC in the list as well for MM but only as the free KC from RiF procs.

#15 Midnight

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:20 AM

Well I was the one talking about a rotation. However the way I found for me works best if you consider haste and priority is to simply force 2 SS's after 1 CS.

1 CS drains 44 focus. 2 SS regen 18 focus which means that if you regen less than 26 focus through passive and other sources you can not be overcapping focus.

26 focus means 6.5 focus/sec*, which is still really generous. In fact I think the only way this can be slightly dangerous is in case of rapid fire + rapid recuperation. But even in those cases you'd have to be at 90+ focus before you used CS which shouldn't be the case if you handled correctly before using CS.

*[e]: Just realized it doesn't matter how much haste you have as the decreased SS cast time should be reversed linear with the increase in passive regen. Ranged speed increases that don't increase focus regen should still increase this buffer.


I had the same idea. Problem is only 2 SS after every CS won´t give a 100% ISS uptime with ISS having 7s duration and CS having at least 9s CD. So if we want to have 100% uptime we´ll have to use at least 2x 2 SS per cycle.
This might lead to overcapping focus under certain conditions (MMM and RiF procs, KS, CS glyph etc) though. So it comes down to deciding if it´s better to either waste some focus to guarantee 100% uptime on ISS or making sure not to waste any focus but loose some ISS uptime in turn.

Also even though it´s propably relative save to do at least 2 SS per cycle even under extreme conditions due to CS focus consumption alone, it may not be otimal to do them right after CS if KS is ready or MMM or RiF have procced.

Right now I´m trying another condition for SS right before AS.
At first it distinguishes between two cases:
a) last shot was not a SS or
B) last shot was a SS but the shot before that one wasn´t
if neither of those conditions are met it continues with the AS condition as shown in the OP.
if a) is true it checks if focus is low enough to not overcap focus with 2 consecutive SS and if CS CD is long enough to for 2 SS. If both of those conditions are met it recommends SS
if B) is true it only checks for overcapping bevore recommanding SS
This way it should always do double SS if focus allows it but never triple SS (unless for some reason focus is too low for AS even after two SS). AS then dumps focus as long as necessary to get to a level that allows for 2 SS without wasting focus.

For the MM rotation, there should probably be an option for the user to decide which has higher priority - maintaining the ISS buff or immediately using the MMM proc. Some people feel that the proc should be used right away even if triggered by the first SS in a pair for ISS while other believe that it is worth giving up 1 proc chance in order to make sure that the ISS buff is refreshed.

You should probably include KC in the list as well for MM but only as the free KC from RiF procs.

I´ll keep it in mind for later implementation but it´s rather complicated because it´s not really a change to the condition itself but rather a change to its position (priority). I guess I could put every condition in its own function to make it easier shuffling them around at runtime.
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#16 Jorily

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:53 AM

quick question (got some problem in accessing some web pages from my office :( ): what will be available as features of FS by tomorrow?

Thanks

#17 Midnight

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:07 AM

quick question (got some problem in accessing some web pages from my office :( ): what will be available as features of FS by tomorrow?

Thanks


Right now all FS does is recommending the next shot (and optionally up to the 4 following shots) to cast. All the other features the old FS had like frames for targets TTL, SpS damage modifier, Sniper Training and - for obvious reasons - AotV are gone. I don´t have the rotating display style included yet either, but as this seemed to be one of the things a lot of people enjoyed about FS it´ll most definatly have a return in a later version too. I´ll try to make those other features available as modules if possible so you only have to burn CPU cycles and memory on the things you really use.
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#18 Whitefyst

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:35 PM

Okay, I stepped through the rotations for the Termination sequence with seperating the KSs by 6s like some folks have suggested. I did it two ways again, one trying to use focus up the best with not maintaining 100% ISS uptime, and the other maintaining 100% uptime. The 60s sequence for each was done using the same assumptions from the previous sequences with back to back KSs. Since they take up a lot of room, I am not copying the full sequences into this reply.

Between these two sequences, it is definitely beneficial to maintain the ISS buff for the following reasons:

1) You always have a 1.5s SS cast time, resulting in a tight rotation with no gaps. Without maintaining ISS, some SS casts were 1.67s resulting in gaps of up to 0.33s to wait to cast a KS/CS and having to push back KS/CS casts by the same amount in other situations.

2) You autoshot is always fully hasted resulting in more autoshots and benefits from it like WQ and pet focus

3) Because of the tighter rotation, you are able to cast 3 extra SSs at the cost of only 1 AS.

So maintaining the ISS buff during the Termination phase results in more DPS for the delayed KS sequence.

Now comparing the back to back KS sequence to the delayed KS sequence (both with maintaining the ISS buff), I would have to say that the back to back sequence wins for the following reasons:

1) You gain 2 KS and a 1.3 SS versus losing 4 ArS. The 2 KSs every 11s versus 2 KSs every 12 adds up. It it true though that the next shot in the delayed rotation was going to be a KS while the back to back was going to have an ArS. So the difference after 61s in is 1 KS and 1.3 SS versus 3 ArS, which is a little more even.

2) You don't need points in Termination for the back to back case, but you do for the delayed KS case. However, factoring in focus savings when replacing ArS casts with MMM procs and RiFs procs, the delayed KS case probably does not need Termination either.

3) The back to back KS case has a repeatable rotation when not under dynamic haste effects and is easily modifiable into a new repeatable rotation under dynamic haste effects. The delayed KS rotation is not repeatable. It requires a lot more monitoring (or the use of an aid like Faceshooter) to perform well.

Thus, my belief is that the back-to-back KS sequence while maintaining ISS is the best method over the Termination phase.

I still need to look at CS glyph versus non-CS glyph rotations.

#19 Xvatbot

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:21 AM

Unfortunately, the CS Glyph now only reduces the c/d by 1 second (down from 2? as i recall?) instead of 2 which would make the "rotation" perfect.

And, depending on damage coefficients on ArS and SS, and the impact of their respective glyphs (6% damage and 10%) will be very important in determining wihch glyph one would replace with CS glyph if we were to - I apologize for not having done any math on the matter - but its not even assured to be a damage increase.


I think that instead of having a bread and butter roto, the "new" raiding MM hunter should concentrate more on having ISS up as much as possible.

In regards to trap launcher w/ explosive vs immolation trap (glyphed), there should be a space for it, as well as TL only using 25 focus (glyphed)

Also, out of ignorance, where is a place for MS? (not sure how it works with cooldowns any more)

But overall, i think it may be a good idea to modify to always (if not mostly) cast two SS's together, possibly making it so hunters will be stringing together ArS, CS and possibly TL, MMM's AimS, or Multi? (or any other shot) in 3's or 2's, requiring a two steady roto to get back up to ~60-70

Im not at all standing by my ruminations as if they are 100% true, however the impact of ISS is too much to ignore.. if anything, our only 'rotation' should be keeping SS always together..

Something like
SrS, CS, ArS, SS, SS, ArS (Another Shot/Trap Launcher), SS, SS -->

I know that's a terrible list but it's off the top of the head, with the crit where it is at this patch release, we wont be seeing hunters lacking on focus as of right now.

#20 inyu

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:41 AM

Unfortunately, the CS Glyph now only reduces the c/d by 1 second (down from 2? as i recall?) instead of 2 which would make the "rotation" perfect.

Nope, it has been always 1 second.




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