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FaceShooter and hunter shot priorities in Cataclysm


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#21 Quinessa

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 04:55 PM

Midnight, are you able to add Bestial Wrath to the shot rotation? It would make it easier for me to keep my focus on FS rather than dividing it between FS and watching for BW to come off cd.

Also, when BW is active I have been spamming arcane shot (and kill command and serpent sting when they are ready) since focus regen goes up quite a bit. But FS does not reflect it (a couple of times it did suggest 2 arcane shots back to back but I was able to get 3 or 4 arcanes off between KC and SrS)

#22 Midnight

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 07:15 PM

Midnight, are you able to add Bestial Wrath to the shot rotation? It would make it easier for me to keep my focus on FS rather than dividing it between FS and watching for BW to come off cd.

Also, when BW is active I have been spamming arcane shot (and kill command and serpent sting when they are ready) since focus regen goes up quite a bit. But FS does not reflect it (a couple of times it did suggest 2 arcane shots back to back but I was able to get 3 or 4 arcanes off between KC and SrS)


I can add a BW reminder frame or something as a module later, but it doesn´t really belong into the rotation itself. But you´re right, I forgot accounting for the 50% focus discount when under the effect of TBW. I´ll fix that in the next version.
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#23 Deepfriedegg

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 09:52 AM

Guys, thanks for all those KS glyph calculations.
However, if I haven't failed at reading, nobody of you has mentioned the travel time of KS. It means, that the glyph is not triggered when you cast KS but after the KS landed - which is how it should be given the fact that the glyph effect is triggered based on target health (death). As a result, you cant fire back to back KS anyway. When standing 30-40 yards from the boss, it always procced approximately 1.5 seconds after the cast, so I squeezed Chimera/Arcane/Aimed proc in and then fired the "glyph" kill shot.

Hasn't this flawed your calculations a bit?

#24 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 06:00 PM

BM:
if HM is not on target or running out in less than a set time and there´s no MfD on target and focus/cooldowns/target heath don´t allow for KS or KC
--> cast HM
if KS is off CD and target health is at or below 20%
--> cast KS
if KC is off CD and enough focus
--> cast KC
if SpS is not on target and enough focus
--> cast SpS
if focus over or at 75 (modified by Efficiency)
--> cast AS
none of the above
--> cast CoS


The highlighted line in the algorithm should be corrected to:

if focus over or at 65 (modified by Efficiency and Glyph of Kill Command)

This is because KC costs 40 focus by default instead of 50 like the other abilities, and the glyph reduces the cost by 3 focus.

#25 Thrabuco

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:36 PM

Guys, thanks for all those KS glyph calculations.
However, if I haven't failed at reading, nobody of you has mentioned the travel time of KS. It means, that the glyph is not triggered when you cast KS but after the KS landed - which is how it should be given the fact that the glyph effect is triggered based on target health (death). As a result, you cant fire back to back KS anyway. When standing 30-40 yards from the boss, it always procced approximately 1.5 seconds after the cast, so I squeezed Chimera/Arcane/Aimed proc in and then fired the "glyph" kill shot.

Hasn't this flawed your calculations a bit?


I lack info/calculation about travel time on max range to support this, but yes when i put up those times i wasn't taking into consideration the travel time, altough I don't think this travel would take more than the GCD (1 second), at least on non-max-range, to activate the glyph allowing you to squeeze the second KS right away.

I'll find a way to test it when I get home.

The opposite i can say on MMM proc. I'm getting a problem to fire AiS right away after the proc, since for the MMM charge, the SS need to hit the target, and with a cast time above the GCD when i see the proc i already fired another shot (AS/CS). The new ability queue also comes into consideration here, few more days and i'll be used to it.

Another thing to look at: as Whitefyst an others are pointing out at the MM 4.0.1 thread is that maybe is better to delay CS and only fire it to renew the SrS. The exact rotation takes into consideration haste, floating from 11~13 seconds until CS be fired again. *but not yet confirmed

#26 Nooska

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 09:31 PM

Regarding CS delaying or not. AS may be better dpfc (at 80) than CS, but CS is better dps, so its only an increase in dps to delay CS if you loose more damage from doing a SS instead of an AS than you gain from CS over AS. This is very RAP dependant and cannot be tested on dummies since CS scales with 23% RAP and AS only scales with 4.2% RAP.

#27 Duw

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 02:52 PM

Can I ask why you don't consider serpent sting in your first condition:
"if HM is not on target or running out in less than a set time and there´s no MfD on target and focus/cooldowns/target heath don´t allow for KS, ES or BA"

There is discussion of even delaying explosive shot for the sake of applying serpent sting, and so I thought it would be an argument in the above condition.

#28 R00k!3

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 03:10 PM

Considering some trinkets do not proc instantly, wouldn't it be worthwhile to do something like HM SerS SS SS RF CS Readiness CS AS AS ... as an opening?

#29 Midnight

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 05:35 PM

Can I ask why you don't consider serpent sting in your first condition:
"if HM is not on target or running out in less than a set time and there´s no MfD on target and focus/cooldowns/target heath don´t allow for KS, ES or BA"

There is discussion of even delaying explosive shot for the sake of applying serpent sting, and so I thought it would be an argument in the above condition.

My reasoning for including those shots on my initial version was that they´re on CD so I assumed they´re meant to be stronger. I reckon there is some theorycrafting in order though as we don´t really have a lot of information about shots dps, dpf and dpct to base our priorities on so far. After all that is the main reason for this thread - finding and improving the shot rotations/priorities for the different specs. I´m more than willing to revise the prioritylist if there´re sound improvements to it.
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#30 kyxap

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 08:56 PM

How about Focus Fire in BM?
Is this talent useless?

#31 Midnight

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 11:33 PM

It´s not but it´s off GCD and as such not part of the rotation. Just wait until you´ve got 5 frenzy stacks and use it.
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#32 jimmyolsen

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 10:15 PM

And actually, the damage difference between Black Arrow at 35 focus and Glyphed Trap Launcher - Explosive Trap at 10 focus is hardly different at 9000 AP and 18% Mastery at level 85. Black Arrow was doing 6005 to up to 12010 damage (if all 5 ticks crit) in comparison to Explosive Trap doing 7360 to up to 11040 (if all 10 ticks crit) not including the initial damage component which is currently bugged on the beta (although the tooltip displays ~1000 damage, it actually is only doing ~280 damage, the same as when I was naked, even though the tooltip when naked said it should do ~370 damage)..


Currently, at 9028 RAP and 16.41 mastery, I'm showing 7263 damage for Black Arrow on the tooltip. Explosive Shot's dot component shows 7900. Switching to 9844 AP (+816), the two have improved to 7502 (+239) and 8580 (+680) respectively.

5/5 Crits for Black Arrow will push it to 15004, 10/10 Crits for Explosive trap will push it to 12870, The initial damage of Explosive Trap should be 1248, which pushes Explosive's total to 14118. Unless Black Arrow's RAP modifier gets buffed, or it regains the old +damage buff, I don't see how BA can compete. Black Arrow is outpaced on scaling, has fewer chances to proc LnL, and costs 25 more focus than a glyphed Trap Launcher.

Also, Immolation trap needs help. Explosive Trap is better than it for single target as Marksman, that shouldn't happen.

#33 Radroit

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 11:29 PM

I'm using your addon and loving it; very helpful while trying to become accustomed to the new mechanic. I don't have a scientific approach to offer here, but I wanted to bring up a couple things I've noted during my training dummy time (specced MM).

First, it seems the addon is suggesting a lot more single SS than I expected. I would have thought SS would almost always be used in paris.

Second, my sense of my focus reservoir is that it is too high on average (perhaps because of too many SS?). Again, not being scientific, but I would have thought that I'd be getting the most bang for my buck if my focus is generally less than 50%, and perhaps even hovering around 22-24 unless I'm nearing a CS.

I'm also seeing SS be my highest damage producing shot, greater than AS, Auto, and WQ.

At the same time, if I try to substitute AS for suggested SS, my focus remains fine but my DPS seems to drop.

I'm wearing my usual raid gear, cat as a pet, not using RF or anything other than whatever procs on its own.

Not complaining here in any way, just throwing out anecdotes for informational use.

#34 Midnight

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 10:48 AM

I'm using your addon and loving it; very helpful while trying to become accustomed to the new mechanic. I don't have a scientific approach to offer here, but I wanted to bring up a couple things I've noted during my training dummy time (specced MM).

First, it seems the addon is suggesting a lot more single SS than I expected. I would have thought SS would almost always be used in paris.

Second, my sense of my focus reservoir is that it is too high on average (perhaps because of too many SS?). Again, not being scientific, but I would have thought that I'd be getting the most bang for my buck if my focus is generally less than 50%, and perhaps even hovering around 22-24 unless I'm nearing a CS.

I'm also seeing SS be my highest damage producing shot, greater than AS, Auto, and WQ.

At the same time, if I try to substitute AS for suggested SS, my focus remains fine but my DPS seems to drop.

I'm wearing my usual raid gear, cat as a pet, not using RF or anything other than whatever procs on its own.

Not complaining here in any way, just throwing out anecdotes for informational use.


I´m aware of the problems with MM and ISS uptime. I´m still struggleing for a general, codable solution to this problem. Unfortunatly the last few days I couldn´t put much work into improving this behavior because I was busy fixing more important and addon breaking bugs.

I think the reason you feel your focus reservoir is too high is that currently FS takes a minimum guaranteed focus regeneration approach when calculating how much focus you need to have so CS (or any other signature shot) is castable on CD. In other words it´d calculate how much focus you regenerate until CS is ready again, subtract that value from CS's focus costs and try to keep you at or above that level at all times. For this specific check it does account for haste improved regeneration, it doesn´t account for SS generated focus though. So in general it´ll keep you quite a bit higher than necessary. This shouldn´t actually be a problem though if there´s enough wiggle room in between your lower and upper threasholds. If this proves to be a problem I´ll have to find a way to predict how many SS/CoS you´ll do before your next signature shot and include the regenerated focus in the calculation.

This may not be necessary though. If I want to have a 100% ISS uptime* while still doing CS on CD and Blizzard doesn´t change the buff duration I know that I´ll always have to do at least two pairs of SS between two CS. I think I can just hardcode this into FS. I could make FS monitor the remaining ISS buff duration and force two SS if either a) ISS runs out before CS comes off CD and it´d run out before I could start my second SS if I cast anything else now or B) it´d run out after CS comes off CD but it´d run out before I could cast my second SS after CS.

* Actually saying 100% uptime is not the whole truth. It is my understanding that it´s enough to start casting your second SS while ISS is up so you get the short casttime. If you loose ISS while casting the second one it may only have a very minor impact on your focus regeneration and/or next auto shot.
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#35 Whitefyst

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 03:34 PM

I´m aware of the problems with MM and ISS uptime. I´m still struggleing for a general, codable solution to this problem. Unfortunatly the last few days I couldn´t put much work into improving this behavior because I was busy fixing more important and addon breaking bugs.


You may want to check out what Rivkah's FemaleDwarf implemention is for his ISS behavior option "steady shot in pairs if ISS has <= 4 sec left".

This works out really well. With my characters stats, it currently maintains almost 100% ISS uptime, with only some small 1 shot drop offs during the KS phase due to CS priority over SS pairs. But that is with firing CS off CD and can be fixed by delaying the CS cast to after the SSs but before SrS falls off.

With that implementation, during 5 mins, 89 SSs are cast. These were cast in 37 pairs, 4 triplets, and 3 single casts. That is pretty darn good.

#36 Rivkah

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 06:08 PM

The logic behind the steady shot in pairs feature is pretty straightforward. It just says if you have already cast the first steady shot in a pair, check if ISS has <= 4 sec left, if so, cast a second steady shot before casting any other shots.

#37 Midnight

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 06:57 PM

The logic behind the steady shot in pairs feature is pretty straightforward. It just says if you have already cast the first steady shot in a pair, check if ISS has <= 4 sec left, if so, cast a second steady shot before casting any other shots.


So how does it decide when to cast the first pair? Also I assume this might push CS back a bit in favor of keeping ISS up? From what I can tell so far it´s propably the better strategy to priorize ISS uptime over CS anyway.
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#38 Rivkah

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 08:13 PM

There's no special logic on deciding when to cast the first pair, I just follow the standard shot priority (which means the initial ISS may come up a bit late). The only thing this particular setting allows you to do is control whether the first steady shot turns into two, so that you don't waste a pair once you've already cast one. The theory is that generally if you need to cast one steady, unless you've just cast a pair it's more efficient to just do two then so your ISS is refreshed. The other thing with this approach is that at worst higher priority shots are never delayed more than one steady shot cast.

I have a second option on the site which allows you to prioritize steady shot above all other shots if your ISS has <= 3 sec left on it. That results in slightly higher ISS uptime but the difference isn't large, and it will force higher value shots like chimera to be delayed more often, especially at the start of the fight. Starting a fight with 2 steadies seems like a waste of focus though, so I'm not sure I like that approach. You probably could add a contingency for if focus was above a certain level though to get around this issue.

#39 Whitefyst

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 09:00 PM

Also I assume this might push CS back a bit in favor of keeping ISS up? From what I can tell so far it´s propably the better strategy to priorize ISS uptime over CS anyway.


It can push back the CS a little bit, but currently that is definitely not a problem considering the relative damage of CS to SS and the benefit of the ISS buff. But that is not a big deal since currently, I prefer to still delay my CS cast to somewhere within the last 4s before SrS drops depending on when is convienent.

Of the 39 CS casts in the simualtion for my character with the <= 4s setting:
- 1 was the initial cast
- 2 were cast after Readiness (which is debatable on whether that is currently the best use of focus)
- The other 36 broke down into delays of:

0.00-0.25: 2
0.25-0.50: 4
0.50-0.75: 0
0.75-1.00: 6
1.00-1.25: 7
1.25-1.50: 3
>1.50: 4

As can be seen most of the delays where under the time of a SS cast. Of the 4 that were greater than 1.5s delays in CS cast time, the SS pair started a little late due to focus issues where the sim was trying to prevent an overcap by firing an extra ArS. In 3 of those 4, the ISS buff actually ran out during the cast of the second SS in the pair. Although those results are not ideal, its not bad for a simple rule sim with sometimes competing rules.

#40 pradashoes

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 01:23 AM

is there a way to tweak the shot display so that it waits for optimal stacks on proc buffs to suggest CS (or AS)?




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