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FaceShooter and hunter shot priorities in Cataclysm


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#41 Luasokor

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 09:45 AM

One suggestion for the shot display:

It would be a lot easier to use if the transition from shot to shot on the display were more easily readable. Example -- the addon wants to communicate that you should SS 4 times in a row. During these 4 shots, there really isn't any movement on the two icons. You see the SS icon for all of them.

Maybe something as simple as a number in the corner or even the middle of the button would help. I would suggest something like numbers 1-5. So the first 5 suggested shots get the corresponding number, the 6th suggested shot gets the number 1 and so on and so on. Why 5? Well...sometimes the shot priority changes before you actually cast the suggested shot, for instance. Also, because if the suggested shot is a huge string of Arcane shots (during rapid fire, for instance) then it will be easier to see that you are casting them without seeing something ridiculous like oscillating 1's and 2's.

Just a suggestion that I think would add to the usability of the addon.

#42 Midnight

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 01:45 PM

is there a way to tweak the shot display so that it waits for optimal stacks on proc buffs to suggest CS (or AS)?


I don´t understand your question? What proc stacks should I wait for before suggesting CS? :confused:

One suggestion for the shot display:

It would be a lot easier to use if the transition from shot to shot on the display were more easily readable. Example -- the addon wants to communicate that you should SS 4 times in a row. During these 4 shots, there really isn't any movement on the two icons. You see the SS icon for all of them.

Maybe something as simple as a number in the corner or even the middle of the button would help. I would suggest something like numbers 1-5. So the first 5 suggested shots get the corresponding number, the 6th suggested shot gets the number 1 and so on and so on. Why 5? Well...sometimes the shot priority changes before you actually cast the suggested shot, for instance. Also, because if the suggested shot is a huge string of Arcane shots (during rapid fire, for instance) then it will be easier to see that you are casting them without seeing something ridiculous like oscillating 1's and 2's.

Just a suggestion that I think would add to the usability of the addon.


I´m planning on allowing the option to have the frames animated again as soon as I´m happy with the suggestion in general. Those animations should illustrate the transitions much more clearly.
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#43 pradashoes

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 10:55 PM

I guess I was thinking of Beserker, but if you are using that for PvE, I guess there is more trouble in what you are doing than waiting for CS. Plus, I forgot that CS is no good anymore, it's hard to get over.

#44 Fluflis

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 01:16 AM

I don't know if I'll explain it good but for example when FS suggests me 2 steady shots, if i press shteady shot once for each casts everything is good. But if i press it one more time before the steady shot casts ends, but after the gcd on FS has ended, it moves quickly to the next shot. So when I'm getting is 2xsteady and then arcane as suggestion: i start casting steady shot, gcd ends, i press steady before the first one casting has ended and the second steady shot suggestion dissapears, before i have actually started casting it and it shows me arcane shot which was the third shot. Any way to configure it so it doesn't behave like that?
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#45 Midnight

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 11:09 AM

I don't know if I'll explain it good but for example when FS suggests me 2 steady shots, if i press shteady shot once for each casts everything is good. But if i press it one more time before the steady shot casts ends, but after the gcd on FS has ended, it moves quickly to the next shot. So when I'm getting is 2xsteady and then arcane as suggestion: i start casting steady shot, gcd ends, i press steady before the first one casting has ended and the second steady shot suggestion dissapears, before i have actually started casting it and it shows me arcane shot which was the third shot. Any way to configure it so it doesn't behave like that?


That´s the new spell "queue". The client allows you to queue a new spell before the current one has actually finished. If you cast a steady shot and queue the next one just before it´s finished casting FS moves on to the next suggestion and you should be fine with that.
However unfortunatly FS has no (precise) way of telling if the queuing worked or not until it gets a response by the server so it always assumes it did and just reverts back to the original state if it realizes that it didn´t work.
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#46 Lokrick

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:06 AM

I can add a BW reminder frame or something as a module later, but it doesn´t really belong into the rotation itself. But you´re right, I forgot accounting for the 50% focus discount when under the effect of TBW. I´ll fix that in the next version.


Both BW and Focus Fire seem to relevant for the BM rotation because they affect the various shots differently: the 50% focus cost reduction is one of the precious resources for BM, and any time not spent burning focus during BW should be a DPS loss. Thus, they should go into BW with 85+ focus (approximately assuming 20% haste) if using KC during BW and 70+ if just spamming AS/SrS. That changes the shot priority before BW comes off CD. Similarly, the +15% haste from Focus Fire benefits Auto Shot and Steady Shot (but not AS), so it is likely to be worth more outside of BW, and would prioritize SS over AS until focus is near maximum.

I have anecdotally verified this for myself, but actually analyzing numbers for the above is difficult, since it requires different shot priority depending on Frenzy stacks and BW timing. I'll post on the 4.0.1 thread when I have real numbers.

#47 Midnight

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 11:33 AM

Both BW and Focus Fire seem to relevant for the BM rotation because they affect the various shots differently: the 50% focus cost reduction is one of the precious resources for BM, and any time not spent burning focus during BW should be a DPS loss. Thus, they should go into BW with 85+ focus (approximately assuming 20% haste) if using KC during BW and 70+ if just spamming AS/SrS. That changes the shot priority before BW comes off CD. Similarly, the +15% haste from Focus Fire benefits Auto Shot and Steady Shot (but not AS), so it is likely to be worth more outside of BW, and would prioritize SS over AS until focus is near maximum.

I have anecdotally verified this for myself, but actually analyzing numbers for the above is difficult, since it requires different shot priority depending on Frenzy stacks and BW timing. I'll post on the 4.0.1 thread when I have real numbers.


Ok agreed, both TBW and Focus Fire do have an impact on our rotation. Also it matters when to cast TBW of course. I still wouldn´t call it strictly part of the rotation because it doesn´t really take up a timeslice of the rotation beeing off GCD and as such it shouldn´t be shown at the main recommendation frame.

What I could do besides adding said reminder frame is making FS trying to save focus in anticipation of TBW and recommend using it only when over a certain threshold - kind of like the Berserk frames with some of the feral druid recommendation AddOns work.

Concerning Focus Fire - as the algorithm already tries to keep just above whatever focus is needed to be able to cast KC as soon as it comes off CD again so there´s not much I can do in preparation for it. It´s the nature of that kind of implementation that this threshold will be lowest right after a KC is cast but I´m not convinced it´s a net dps gain to wait until that happens and potentially trading precious uptime for it. However I could change the behavior to a upper threshold during Focus Fire duration to maximize the amount of steady shots cast while having the buff without overcapping.

I´ll put it on my ToDo list. :)
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#48 jimmyolsen

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:00 PM

The change to Black Arrow seems to have been VERY significant. The epic-geared pre-made Hunter with 11764 AP, and 17.16 Mastery does 20990 with Black Arrow but only 1187 + 10230 with Explosive Trap. Considering the initial damage on Explosive Trap is still only doing about 200 damage, I think it'll be hard to compensate.

I'm not sure that the increased proc chance can compensate for the nearly double damage that Black Arrow does now. Furthermore, the 4/5 tier gear bonus makes Black Arrow give a tick on application increasing it's damage by essentially 20%.

#49 Asys85

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 01:10 AM

Just gotta give you a big thanks for this addon. It have helped alot to understand that the damage output from hunters are comparible to other classes. Have been having some problems with keeping up enough focus etc for my shots and this have helped me on how to press the buttons in order to be efficient.

One thing tho, is it possible to turn off the notify about Hunters mark? Cause on some shorter fights I don't wanna spend that extra second to cast HM instead of some damage ability, and aswell when switching targets alot to.
Like only advice about hunters mark when out of combat or something.

#50 Midnight

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 09:49 AM

I just released version 0.1.5. I´m still not completely happy with it but between LnL handling, RiF, CoS and SS adding focus only after the spell has been cast successfully, spell interrupt detection etc and the inevitable server/client lag. FS has become pretty complex and challanging to bugfix once again. Until I´m completely satisfied with overall stability I´ll refrain from adding new features even though I´m itching to include them myself.

The change to Black Arrow seems to have been VERY significant. The epic-geared pre-made Hunter with 11764 AP, and 17.16 Mastery does 20990 with Black Arrow but only 1187 + 10230 with Explosive Trap. Considering the initial damage on Explosive Trap is still only doing about 200 damage, I think it'll be hard to compensate.

I'm not sure that the increased proc chance can compensate for the nearly double damage that Black Arrow does now. Furthermore, the 4/5 tier gear bonus makes Black Arrow give a tick on application increasing it's damage by essentially 20%.

Ya I realized that too. I even got values around 30k dmg per BA application on cata raid dummies which makes it roughly on par with Explosive Trap considering (glyphed) dpf and 3 times the dps on a single target. ET becomes as good dps with much better dpf at 3+ targets assuming you´re the only hunter using the trap and those targets stay within the area of effect. Unfortunatly this change hasn´t reached the live servers yet where my BA does a bit more than half the damage of ET (on a single target!) for 3.5 times the focus cost (glyphed) with half as much ticks to proc LnL.

I included an option to opt for TL + Trap over BA in 0.1.5. Also seeing as BA is much more powerful and SpS only has to be applied once at lvl 85 I included another option to not save focus for your signature shot over usage of SpS and BA so it´s basically used as soon as the CD is up/focus allows even if it pushes back your signature shot due to focus shortage.

Just gotta give you a big thanks for this addon. It have helped alot to understand that the damage output from hunters are comparible to other classes. Have been having some problems with keeping up enough focus etc for my shots and this have helped me on how to press the buttons in order to be efficient.

One thing tho, is it possible to turn off the notify about Hunters mark? Cause on some shorter fights I don't wanna spend that extra second to cast HM instead of some damage ability, and aswell when switching targets alot to.
Like only advice about hunters mark when out of combat or something.

I also included 6 options for HM handling.

- always recommend it
- never recommend it
- only if target has bosslevel
- only if you´re ooc
- only if either target has bosslevel or you´re ooc and
- only if both target has bosslevel and you´re ooc

I hope there´s the fitting option for everyone. I also plan on including some time to life calculations again as one of the future features and use that for smarter HM/SpS/BA recommendations (meaning: don´t use them when your target is about to die)

In addition to the above mentioned changes I also implemented Rivkahs "use SS if ISS runs out in <= 4s" condition for MM which seems to work pretty fine in keeping ISS up at cost of some CS usage. Please let me know what you think about it.

edit: Another change I´d like some feedback about is I removed KC recommendation for SV while LnL is up and SS will lead to overcapping completely because at least according to Rivkahs calculator it was a dps loss with my live toon to do so.
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#51 vifardente

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:20 AM

Need of HM/SpS can be determined by target HP, i.e. "recommend HM/SpS if targetHP < [an user specified value with some default (say 30k)]"

#52 Midnight

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:34 AM

Need of HM/SpS can be determined by target HP, i.e. "recommend HM/SpS if targetHP < [an user specified value with some default (say 30k)]"


Target HP alone is a very bad criteria for debuff requirements as it makes a big difference wether you have to burn those 30k alone or with 24 other people in the raid. That´s why I´d rather do it the time-to-life way again.
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#53 vifardente

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 01:56 PM

This criteria can be useful on non-bosslevel targets (trash etc).

#54 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 05:12 PM

This criteria can be useful on non-bosslevel targets (trash etc).


That is only because you would be using target health as a proxy for time to die -- i.e., "These 30k health targets will die fast in my group, so I don't have time to use [insert ability]." The point is that a health threshold is meaningless without the context of how much damage the target is taking, at which point using time-to-die is more useful.

#55 Midnight

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 03:33 PM

I finished the TTL module yesterday and will release a new version as soon as Im confident it´s working as intended (which propably means having done a few heroics and/or raids). I also included options that don´t require the TTL module and make FS either don´t suggest SpS/BA/Traps at all or on bosslevel mobs only.
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#56 Narcosleepy

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 03:19 AM

Thread closed in the interest of Cataclysm cleanup. Look for a new thread from Midnight when the testing mentioned in the last post is completed.
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