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Healing Priest FAQ v4.0.1: Surviving until December, 7th


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#41 Havoc12

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:32 PM

I was just playing with the echoes behavior in dal before I made my post, and I was able to get it to tick for 10,000 per second with flash heal by the time my mana ran out. Its been 10 years since I took a math course, so i can barely recognize that math manipulation, but after reading your post, I logged back in and tried to stack heal as high as I could. Mine has a 1.97s cast, which I suspect is nearly the worst possible casting time, since I was unable to get my echo above 1200 per tick. My flash heal, on the other hand, is ~1.2 seconds and so I suspect casts ending in .1-.5 roll echoes much more rapidly. I suspect having a 1.01 second flash heal would be the fastest way to stack echoes, but perhaps the extra .2 seconds buffers against player error and latency variations.

Would I be correct in saying that you want your echo to refresh just after a tick and not just before in order to get it rolling?


I will explain it while answering another post

I have difficulties to follow your math. I guess that's because you don't state clearly your assumptions, and mostly because your notation is fluctuating.....
I'm rather authoritative here, but if the mastery hot rolls as I expect ...... then from the mass transportation principle in Palm theory, I'm sure that the mastery adds an expected 10% (or whatever mastery percentage you have) of your direct hps. By no way it can double it...


I can see your concern Ellimbras, the reason why I thought the spell worked this way is that both I and others (see the post I quote) were able to get tick numbers that were about as big or bigger than the spell we are casting. I can definately see I made a mistake because I was using H for two different things and I confused them in the end. It should have been 0.1*H if H is the average amount healed by the spell. I will do it again more carefully this time.

Assumptions:
The EoL HoT stacks as follows. When you cast a new spell before the current HoT is finished the remaining amount is transferred over to the next heal but the remaining duration left before the next EoL tick occurs DOES NOT get transferred. That means if you have a spell with a 1.5 second cast time and you spam it, then 1 second after the 1st spell hits you will get a tick and 0.5 seconds later a new spell will hit so that will refresh the hot duration causing the next tick to come after 1 second again. The result is that your EoL HoT ticks every 1.5 seconds instead of every 1 second. In my example with a 2.1 sec heal I get 2 ticks every 2.1 seconds instead of 1 tick every 2 seconds. I believe this to be correct based on my testing, but I need a more accurate test to substantiate it. The more accurate test will consist of casting a series of flash heals and then looking at the log to determine the number of EoL ticks during that time. The ticks should be the same as the number of Flashes + an extra 5 which will come after the last flash. I will do this at a later time

Now let as assume that I do a certain amount of healing in a period of time. Then the TOTAL amount that will be healed by EoL is the amount of healing I did. Thus if I healed for an amount H then in TOTAL the EoL hot will heal 10% of H or 0.1*H. The hot will begin after my first spell lands and will continue for 6 seconds after I cast my last spell. So if the time from the time my first spell hits to the time my last spell hits is T, the time period in which the healing from EoL was delivered is equal to T+6 seconds. Therefore the OVERALL HPS added by EoL equals 0.1*H/(T+6), but H equals my average HPS*T. That means EoL HPS = HPS*10/100*T/(T+6) = HPS*T/[(10(T+6)]. Thus the formula I came up with before is correct. The OVERALL HPS is approximately 10% of your HPS, but that is the overall HPS. In order to get that, you need to spend a period of time stacking the HoT, during which your HPS will be lower, but later on the HoT HPS will be higher to compensate.

So now lets consider how the stacking works. If you are spam casting you always cut the HoT short, you transfer some of the current amount into the next HoT. This will continue until you reach a steady state where the amount added by your last cast is equal to the amount expended by the HoT in the ticks that occured between your last cast and your second one. We can calculate this two ways. 1) Set the ticks between casts equal to 10% of the average heal or 2) Try to directly calculate the amount.

1) This method is very simple. If your spell heals for X then during the steady state the amount of healed by the ticks dthat fit into the cast time will be equal to 0.1*X.

2) Now lets try to calculate the actual amount healed directly. I cast a spell with a 2.1 second timer, which heals for an amount equal to Y. The first spell will add an EoL amount of 0.1*Y but only 2 of the 6 ticks will be used up. Thus 0.1*Y*2/3 will be transferred to the next heal. The next heal will also add 0.1*Y. To this we will add 0.1*Y*2/3, so after the second heal that total amount to be healed by the EoL HoT will be 0.1*Y(1+2/3). Again the 1st two ticks will be expended so 0.1*Y*(1+2/3)*2/3 will be transferred to the next cast. The 3rd cast will also add a 0.1*Y HoT. That means the total amount will be 0.1*Y*(1+2/3)*2/3+0.1*Y = 0.1*Y*(1+2/3+(2/3)^2). This will continue in the same way until the nth spell this amount will be 0.1*Y*[1+2/3+(2/3)^(2)+........+(2/3)^(n-1)]. This is a geometric progression so its equal to 0.1*Y*[(1-(2/3)^(n)]/(1-2/3) = 0.1*Y*3*[(1-(2/3)^(n)]. At n=infinity that is 0.3*Y and since there are 6 ticks each tick is 0.1*Y/2. Since two ticks get used between spells the total amount healed between two spells is 0.1*Y. So we come up to the exact same result for the steady state but in this way we also get the formula for the what the HoT value is before the steady state is achieved. I.e. 0.1*(average amount healed)*[(1-a^n)/(1-a)]


Thus with my numbers the steady state HPS of heal spam in the heal chakra will be 3.35k HPS, which is roughly half the HPS of gheal spam. When you add however the heal from the flash heals that should rise a little higher to 3.5k HPS. Even 3.5k HPS will be more than sufficient for the rotation I proposed. 3.5k HPS is equivalent to flash heal spam in the previous patch.

However this is not the behaviour that the spell has currently in game. You can actually get it to EoL to stack very high, which means something is broken. If the poster above was getting 1200 per tick and he gets exactly 1 tick between spells due to the cast time being less than 2sec, that means the HPS from EoL is ~600, which is more than twice to what you can expect (since his haste is quite a bit higher than mine I presume his gear is much better).

So either EoL does not work the way we think or there is a bug. I will go have a look at the data and try to figure out what is happening exactly.

Nevertheless I still think my original conclusion stands that you can tank heal very effectively in the heal chakra even in the current content. 3.5k HPS for your basic heal is very respectable and you can tailor your HPS exactly to the incoming damage by using the rest of your heals

#42 Elimbras

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 09:12 PM

OK, I got the mechanism, I think. This is really the concurrent access issue.

I spammed a few flash heal, on myself in Dalaran. I just have the base mastery point, ie. 10% hot.

I did not registred my combat log, but got the following event sequence (on my combat log frame, without timestamps)

Flash heal 13565
Echo 226
Flash 9847
Echo 353
Flash 9415
Echo 353
Echo 450
Flash 9381
Echo 607
Flash 9757
Echo 769
Echo 770
Flash 14073
Ecgo 876
Flash 14722
Echo 1121
Echo 1121
Echo 1122
Echo 1121
Echo 1121
Echo 1122
Echo 1121

Here is an interpretation of the mechanism. Known bank column is the estimation based on echo of light ticks size of the bank size, before that tick. For a first tick after a refresh, it's six times that tick. For a second tick, it's five times.
The guessed bank is my interpretation of the mechanism, once again before the heal / tick lands. When the number is in red, it means the previous operation was, for some reason, not incorporated into the bank. That's what I call concurrent access issue.
For more sense, I exchange the events "flash for 9415" and the second "echo for 353". It does not makes sense in that order, and I guess that the latency / bad precision of time stamps in the log is the origin of this exchange.

[TABLE]Flash | Echo | Known bank | Guessed bank | Operation
13565 | 0 | | 0 | +1356
| 226 | ~1356 | 1356 | -226
9847 | | | 1130 | +984
| 353 | ~2118 | 2114 | -353
| 353 | ~ 1765 | 1761 | -353
9415 | | | 1761 | + 941
| 450 | ~2700 | 2702 | -450
9381 | | | 2702 | + 938
| 607 | ~3642 | 3640 | - 607
9757 | | | 3640 | + 975
| 769 | ~4614 | 5615 | - 769
| 770 | ~ 3850 | 3846 | - 770
14073 | | | 3846 | + 1407
| 876 | ~5256 | 5253 | - 876
14722 | | | 5253 | + 1472
| 1121 | ~6726 | 6725 | -1121
| 1121 | ~5605 | 5604 | -1121
| 1122 | ~4488 | 4482 | -1122
| 1121 | ~3361 | 3361 | -1121
| 1121 | ~2244 | 2240 | -1121
| 1122 | ~1121 | 1119 | -1122
| 1121 | ~0 | 6725 | -1121
[/TABLE]

I seem to be off of a very few hit points. However, the basic mechanism is really the bank similar to Ignite / Deep Wounds. The critical point is that sometimes, the hot tick is not substracted from the bank. We may need more combat logs, if possible with precise timing, to determine when it can occurs. But from a software point of view, I really think that this is due to both the tick and the heal trying to access at the same time to the bank value in the database, and one overwriting the operation of the other.

There is also still some works to do with precise timing of ticks. In particular, depending on the number of times I spammed flash, I would sometimes get 6 echo of light ticks after the last flash heal, and sometimes 7 (last line in blue). I guess that's an haste issue, and a refresh of the duration. But I would not bet on it without more proper inspection, which I don't have the time to do at the moment.

#43 Enfermera

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 10:17 PM

http://www.wowarmory...on&cn=Enfermera

Been playing as our 11/12 HM 25 Guild's Holy Priest for almost a year now and after clearing through Putricide last night I have noticed some significant tidbits. Our healing comp consists of 2 Rest Druids, Disc and Holy, 1-2 Paladins (and we have a couple OS shammies when needed). We also had lots of bug issues which slowed our progression, but that aside...
First thing I did was take my first 5 pieces (randomly) from helm down and convert spirit to mastery for casual play throughout the day in dungeons and a ToC 10 reg to get used to the feel of my new talents. Everything seemed to be working well.
After exerimenting with all 3 states of Chakra I have come to the conclusion that the only truly worthy use for this at level 80 is the Holy Word: Sanctuary state we get through PoH. Not only does this Chakra state give us a CD reduction on CoH (our largest heal and simultaneously one of our lowest overheal spells) but the throughput for AE damage situations (like most fights in ICC now possess) is incredible. Secondly, the Echo of Light mastery procs on all players in the party you cast it (barring range issues). Echo of Light was one of my largest heals and the fact that it ticks EVERY SINGLE second for 6 seconds can be quite large...I ended the night after H Put with over 10,000 ticks of this. The renew state seems only logical for the Dreamwalker encounter where raid damage doesn't seem to be an issue until very late in the fight. Although our guild isdoing the encounter tonight, for the first time post patch, I foresee that our increased throughput overall will make healing her to full much easier while the increased dps throughput will make the AE damage effects of Blazings much less of an issue due to faster kills (our mages/dks/spriests are punishing meters atm).
So my healing officer said to me last night that he was impressed with the healing changes of holy and after talking about my mastery he suggested I dump every piece into mastery instead of the 5 initial I had went with.

Her inlies my problem...In fights where mana didn't used to be an issue it is now an issue. Due to the substantial cost increase of Flash Heal to DOUBLE (changed from triple stack post patch) stack Serendipity and having to cast PoH, our most expensive heal, to add additional 2 seconds to the AE Chakra state I expressed to our healing officer that mana would become a larger concern much earlier in fights.
I only specced into 2/3 Mental Agility due to the strict requirements of holy and the fact that my instant heals aren't the expensive ones I am worried about atm. I am wondering if 2 in Veiled Shadows would net me more MP5 overall than the 2/3 MA does through instant cast savings. Keep in mind we have 2 resto druids in our comp and my renew is pretty toned down due to the fact that it results in 40%+ overheal with our comp.
My healing officer still likes what he sees, as I do, from Echo of Light being such a rapid and heavy hitting HoT and has said that we will just have to dedicate/prioritize Innervates for me. I don't want to be the guild resource hog, but c'est la vie I suppose.

All-in-all I <3 the changes; disheartened we don't get any new heal specific spells via leveling to 85 come Cata, but we are all surely grinding our teeth in anticipation of being cloth-wearing DKs with Leap of Faith and Inner Will looks like it will have some teeth of it's own come mana problems of Cata.

Basically, it looks like Holy spec is the first one that has any remote mana concerns. This doesn't give me confidence in our abilities come Dec. 7th, but let's see what happens.


on a side note: In re: to Elimbras' post about Echo, I am able to Single target with Flash at 18% Echo Mastery and stack my echo over 8k...that's the makings of a TRUE tank healer right there considering how fast and hard Echo ticks when dedicated to target.

#44 Lefaye

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 10:21 PM

Ok..

So I haven't gone into ICC yet. Our guild is going in tonight but after some experimentation I'm looking at my trinkets and am thinking that some of the DPS trinkets look very very good for Atonement priests.

As a Disc Holy priest I haven't got access to any of the lovely ICC or Halion DPS trinkets but swapping out Heroic Arthurs Abacus for Abyssal Rune was very interesting.

First it perfectly brings my haste to 25% once reforged with mastery. Giving me an extra 2% to bubbles which makes up for the SP lost from H Abacus when bubbling. Yes I lose a small amount of crit from it and the difference lowers my mana pool by 3000k but at this level I'm swimming in mana.

It procs quite nicely off my smites raising my spellpower significantly for a period of 10 seconds at which time I can switch to furious inflated bubbles or use the extra sized smites to keep healing the tank/mellee.

Now Abyssal rune is pretty weak. Looking at the numbers I think Charred Twilight Scale would pretty much be best in slot of an Atonement priest. The 80 reforged mastery is somewhere near 5% increased absorb effects and the SP proc beats the amount of SP from Arthurs Abacus. Plus the Haste leftover would allow me to reforge the two items I have forged for haste to mastery increasing bubble size by another 5%.

Please take a look and let me know if I'm off track.

#45 Havoc12

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 10:29 PM

Flash heal 13565
Echo 226
Flash 9847
Echo 353
Flash 9415
Echo 353
Echo 450
Flash 9381
Echo 607
Flash 9757
Echo 769
Echo 770
Flash 14073
Ecgo 876
Flash 14722
Echo 1121
Echo 1121
Echo 1122
Echo 1121
Echo 1121
Echo 1122
Echo 1121


Your data also shows that my assumption based on my initial tests is wrong. The HoT continues to tick once per second just like the HoTs whose duration is refreshed by other spells (e.g. renew refresh by heal)

It wont really affect things much though.

Due to the substantial cost increase of Flash Heal to DOUBLE (changed from triple stack post patch) stack Serendipity and having to cast PoH, our most expensive heal, to add additional 2 seconds to the AE Chakra state


When I tested it in the PTR PoH added 4 seconds per target it hit, so one PoH added 20 seconds to my chakra state.

#46 Svena

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 12:02 AM

Okay, I think I was too quick in stating the ICC buff does apply to shields. I've checked the logs a bit more thorogouhly now, and the only time the absorbs go over 11k is when the tank also has Illuminated Healing (paladin absorb) on him; which would suggest the PW:S isn't getting the ICC buff (as I originally thought). This most likely means LK heroic won't be easily doable now, at least not by using disc priests to cover Infest.



The ICC buff has been applying to priest shields both in & out of ICC. Doing a quick bit of maths with the formula I am still of the belief that the 30% ICC buff is still being applied to shields post patch.
I have to admit having the unused absorb tracked rather than getting hit by mobs & adding the absorbs is a lot easier on time and pocket.


3829 spellpower pre patch = 11650 shield absorb 1710 glyph heal
4412 spellpower post patch (same gear) with 36% mastery = 10871 shield absorb 1696 glyph heal.

LK won't be any more difficult.

#47 Snowy

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 12:12 AM

We didn't really have any problems with disc shields at H LK last night. My shields were just barely enough most of the time, and that's with 4225 spellpower unbuffed and 0 mastery on my gear -- our main disc priest had no issues.

#48 Enfermera

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 08:07 AM

I went through and retested spell coefficient and base values for level 80 in 4.0. The results are in this Google Docs spreadsheet. The 30% permanent increase to Power Word: Shield is still active, which makes it look better than it is inside ICC where everything is 30% larger. I also updated the spreadsheet healing ranges, and base values for level 80.

It looks like mana isn't much of an issue, even reforging as much spirit as I could off of my gear. Only the ICC Holy raid healing rotation was tight on mana.

Here are some stat weightings taken from the spreadsheet. These are based on my gear on Live, but should be relative, or at least close for most people at 80.

Disc Atonement
[TABLE]Intellect | 0.96
Spirit | 0.00
Spell Power| 0.77
Critical | 0.61
Haste | 0.73
Mastery | 0.61[/TABLE]

Disc Shield Spam
[TABLE]Intellect | 0.82
Spirit | 0.00
Spell Power | 0.76
Critical | 0.18
Haste | 2.23
Mastery | 4.29[/TABLE]

Holy PoM > CoH > Renew
[TABLE]Intellect | 1.58
Spirit | 0.00
Spell Power | 1.17
Critical | 1.34
Haste | 3.00
Mastery | 1.23[/TABLE]

Holy Heal+Gheal
[TABLE]Intellect | 0.57
Spirit | 0.00
Spell Power | 0.43
Critical | 0.46
Haste | 0.86
Mastery | 1.24[/TABLE]


Is the PoM>CoH>Renew a priority list? If so I don't know how your PoM heals more than your CoH. CoH always takes priority as Holy. It will be your #1 heal every night and virtually every encounter since 4p set bonus. Obviously keeping PoM on CD off of the tank typically and sometimes elsewhere when tank range is an issue for procing it it's 5 times. And a stat weight of 3.00 on haste for HOLY? CoH/Renew/PoM are instant cast and with mid-level (400-600) haste you can't get much better than 1.25-1.18 flash heals. Spirit DOES help our regen immensely and does not deserver a 0.00 stat weight in Holy AT ALL. I raided 25hm dreamwalker tonight and had downtime just prior to kill after burning through my mana with a full mastery spec. I immediately hearthed to Dal as I knew that wasn't going to fly for Sindy and LK and swapped back to spirit set. I still had mana issues even with an innervate. I had to wait for SF in p3 for 14 seconds sitting oom just tossing 1-2 regen-as-they-come heals while I waited.
As far as the Chakra state goes I have found a place fr it in EVERY encounter in ICC. Esp PUT/BPs/BQ/Sind/LK for te AE state and Dreamwalker for the Renew state. The problem with mana is that Heal is JUNK and slow and Flash heal is sexy with teeth for tanks and double stacking sernedipity for going into AE Chakra state...this our best throughput atm but it is VERY mana innefficient. The typical Flash/PoM/CoH/Renew rotations still work well, but the more you cast Flash the faster you will OOM.

On a positive note our Disc priest healed for 24k HPS on LK tonight...overall fight numbers weren't off the charts, but that shows you how much full masteried shields are sorbing.

EDITED FOR HAVOCS COMMENT TO ME:
it IS refreshing 4 seconds per target hit on PoH, which makes this even more of a reason to find a way to utilize this state. Rotation is a bit tricky, but not hard

#49 Namika

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 09:41 AM

Healing Priest FAQ v4.0.1

IV. B) Talent build for Holy priests (4.0.1)

[Snip]

Suggested build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

IV. c) Q&A for Holy builds (4.0.1)

Q: Why Surge of Lightl?



Thank you much for the Holy rewrite!

I agree 99.9% with that talent tree. The only statement I would add is if you find yourself dying a lot, analyze your use of binding heal vs Flash heal. Consider Binding. If that doesn't help, skip one SoL for Desperate Prayer.


Also Hegen, last I checked Light only had one L (Surge of Lightl?). <3


I'd also like to point out a few nifty little things I discovered in my first night in ICC.

-I had slight mana issues with appx 1400 spirit, but when I eased back my spamming it relaxed. Remember, you can take your chakra all the way down to 30 seconds, let it tick a bit. I was finding myself adding extra renews to maintain it at 30 seconds, however with the upcoming decrease to the Chakra cooldown (30 seconds, down from 1 min) I am able to ease back a lot.

-As someone aptly pointed out, PoH can be much easier to maintain than you think. EACH PERSON that a PoH hits g ives you the time back, so if you hit a 5 person PoH that's 2/4 seconds X 5 people. This makes it much less clunky while still giving an amazing Holy Word: Sanctuary. I started throwing that around for fun during decimates on stinky/precious and was subsequently asked to use that chakra more often.

- My love affair with Lightwell has been rekindled and no one can take it away. For the uninformed, Bliz did change it, and here is how:
Lightwell can be used from a distance of appx 20-30 yards (idk how far really, but that's what it seems). Lightwell can no longer be spammed by users, when you have the HoT you have to wait for it to go away. Lightwell can be clicked while stunned ("What? I can heal myself during Tear Gas? He** yes!"--From a raider last night). In Cataclysm when we become short on mana, Lightwell will give free HPS for those whose raiders/party members are informed of the benefits. I forsee this being a very useful tool to train your raid to use now.

#50 Hegen

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 10:17 AM

The Chakra PoH mechanics is indeed worth adding to the FAQ.

Lightwell can no longer be spammed by users, when you have the HoT you have to wait for it to go away. Lightwell can be clicked while stunned ("What? I can heal myself during Tear Gas? He** yes!"--From a raider last night).


This, however, while true, isn't new. Both the requirement to let it tick out and the ability to use it while CCed (everything except MC works) have been active since start of the WotLK expansion. I have used it in Naxxramas at Maexxna to give the tank some self-heal when webbed (especially useful in 10 man without resto druid).

The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.


#51 Havoc12

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 01:13 PM

Lightwell range has been increased to 30 yards? That is excellent news. Lightwell has always been a spell that I liked having around, its 10000x better than desperate prayer for self survival

For all those of you wondering what happened to atonement, I think the answer is that blizzard disabled it due to it being really bugged. In the PTR and I presumed for a couple of hours on live it healed everyone around the smite target. When I tested it on Wed atonement was not working at all. I think blizzard realised the problem and disabled it until it can be hotfixed.

#52 Viraemia

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 01:55 PM

One thing I noticed is that Holy suffers from mana problems more than druids, disc priests, and shammys at the moment.

Even after all the changes to SP -> Intellect, I find that my priest in 264/277s with Solace of the Defeated is having immense mana problems; on rotface, if I attempt to blanket the raid in renew (in chakra state, of course) my mana drains ridiculously fast, faster than it was prior to the patch, even though I have more of a mana pool.

So i respecced and took 2 minutes off of shadowfiend. Is anyone else having this problem?

Not: my armory is wrong and not updated, I have the 277 cloak off of Saurfang now, and my talent trees are not correct, for some reason they have not been updated.

The World of Warcraft Armory - Sureilltank @ Archimonde - Profile

I'm usually top heals, 1-3, in 11/12 heroic 25. I just don't understand my mana problem.

Also, I switched from heroic Sliver of Pure Ice to Lunar Dust. I think that should help?


I am also trying to figure out ways around the mana issues. I find myself on most fights running dry with everything on CD by the last 5-10% of the fight. Using SF early so it is back up again at the end of the fight helps but the biggest thing that has helped is using more Chakra: PoH and less Chakra: Renew. While using renew chakra I get a little spammy and blanket the raid in renews. I find myself at >50% mana 30secs into the fight which is just awful. Using the Chakra:PoH it is much easier to maintain and I find myself using more of the playstyle I did pre-patch. Also, Holy Word: Sanctuary is the better of the 3 thus far. After using this and having less trouble with mana I will be switching SoR back out in my talents. (I actually specced it before last night because I found myself forcibly dying with the boss >10% just because my mana problems were that bad and SoR let me actually finish the fight)

Overall though I love the changes. It has been a lot of fun so far and will only get better with Chakra CD being reduced to 30 secs, further increasing the sort of customization that comes along with it.

#53 Hegen

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 02:23 PM

While using renew chakra I get a little spammy and blanket the raid in renews. I find myself at >50% mana 30secs into the fight which is just awful.


Also have a look at your overheal while doing this. I suspect that with current fights you end up with significantly more than 50% overheal on Renew if you really spam it.

As for the FAQ, I'll be waiting for more feedback while I'm away for a week, but I can see nudging the holy build more towards efficiency. My current take though is that holy priests just aren't meant to really spam Renew like Disc priests used to spam shields. I think that which you describe in your post is the way to go: sit back for a moment and try other healing methods then look how that goes, instead of blindly trying to acquire the efficiency to be able to maintain existing healing styles.

The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.


#54 metapseudo

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 03:14 PM

Also you have 10% added as a hot. To calculate the contribution lets take any length of the time T, then during that time the amount of healing done H = T*HPS. 10% of that heal will fuel the Echo of Light HoT, so you will get 10%*H healing from it in total and the time in which the healing will be done will be T+6. So HPS from Echo of Light should be 10%*H/(T+6) = HPS*T/[10*(T+6)]. However its important to realise that in a short period of time the heal is end-loaded. That means there is a period where the HPS for echoes will be lower than this and another period where the HPS will be higher. Eventually a steady state will be reached where the HPS is constant.


- I agree with poster conclusions, just let me add a remark on the effectivity of HoT part. (Logs) from ICC raid suggest, that when renewed before expiration, the HoT keeps its highest previous value.
- It may be noted that it is triggered by quite a number of abilities that are not understood as direct heals by the priest community (CoH, trinket proc, Blessed Healing as seen in the log)
- As a result Havoc's formula may be very conservative and actual results will be better.

#55 Viper45

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 04:14 PM

Last night I was finally able to run 10-man ICC. My current build is a variant of the atonement build optimized for my play style/guild needs and pre-cataclysm patch 4.0.1. Healing was provided by two priests (one Holy, one Disc) and a druid; I was tasked with tank healing. Some people stated issues with atonement. Last night I did not see it hit more than one target or miss completely, it worked as intended.

Initially, I would start the encounter with PW:S and PoM on the tanks. My initial rotation, if you can call it that, was PI and smite x5 to get my stacks of Evangelism up, after that I only needed to use Penance, a few flash heals, and PW:S to top off the tanks; I would cast Archangel and be nearly close to full mana again. My sustained rotation was to smite (until 5 stacks) and use Penance, PW:S, and PoM when not on CD. I used Flash/Greater heal when required. PW:B and PS were only used for the oh shit moments or if the tank didn't have a mitigation CD available.

I found the mana returns on Archangel to be amazing. It was also absurdly easy to keep the tanks up with this build. For those that don't know macros well... The following will allow you to target an enemy and cast smite, or target an ally and smite that persons target. I found this extremely useful.
#Showtooltip
/cast [harm] [target=targettarget] Smite

I think this build can be a competitive tank healing build come Cataclysm. Int/Haste (crit to a certain percentage for DA procs) will most likely be the primary stats by allowing greater benefits from Archangel and stacking Evangelism faster. Add Strength of Soul/Heal and mana efficiency increases as well as making sure PW:S is off CD for when you need it most. PW:B moving to two minutes will give even more flexibility on fights with movement mechanics or tons of burst on the tanks or raid.

#56 Elimbras

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 04:31 PM

- I agree with poster conclusions, just let me add a remark on the effectivity of HoT part. (Logs) from ICC raid suggest, that when renewed before expiration, the HoT keeps its highest previous value.


I'm pretty sure it's not a deterministic mechanism, as I've shown in that thread. Ticks are sometimes not deduced when they happen close to a refresh, but it's not systematic (and I guess neither deliberate)

#57 Havoc12

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 11:45 PM

OK, I got the mechanism, I think......


.....There is also still some works to do with precise timing of ticks. In particular, depending on the number of times I spammed flash, I would sometimes get 6 echo of light ticks after the last flash heal, and sometimes 7 (last line in blue). I guess that's an haste issue, and a refresh of the duration. But I would not bet on it without more proper inspection, which I don't have the time to do at the moment.


The reason why you get 7 ticks is simple. The mechanism of the HoT refresh is just like any other HoT refreshed by another spells, like renew with heal for example. If you renew your self and spam heal you will notice that hte duration of the new renew is sometimes 16 instead of 15. The reason is the method that is used to keep the HoT ticking at the same interval despite the refreshed duration. When heal the time remaining until the NEXT renew ticks occurs is transferred onto the refreshed renew. That way when the refreshed renew hits 15 it will tick again and the time between the ticks is preserved. Let me make this more clear. Lets say your heal lands 1 second after a renew tick and you have 0 haste. That means there are 2 seconds left over until the next renew ticks. The new renew duration will be 17 seconds and you will get a tick at 15, 12, 9, 6, 3 and 0. So that is 6 ticks instead of 5.

I think this really explains what is happening with EoL. I believe that your assumption that is a timestamp/lag issue is incorrect. I think due to the way the HoT is refreshed the EoL HoT gets an extra tick everytime it is refreshed and that extra tick is added into the bank. I suspect the system kind of "transferrs" a tick, so the tick that is gained by EoL has the value the EoL ticks had before your new heal landed. That way although one tick is lost just before your spell landed a tick of the same value is added by the HoT refresh. The result is the last tick before the new spell lands is ignored. The evidence for this is the HoT ticking 7 times and the fact that the last tick seems to be ignored everytime even when the EoL tick occurs over half a second before the new flash heal lands. I think if a spell at effectively the same time as an EoL tick then the EoL hot will not gain an extra tick from the refresh and this problem will not occur.

Here is an example
Shaarra gains Shaarra's Renew.
Shaarra's Divine Touch heals Shaarra for 959.
Shaarra gains Shaarra's Echo of Light.
Shaarra gains 400 Mana from Shaarra's Darkglow.
Shaarra gains 16 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Renew.(2001 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.(16 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.(16 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.(16 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Renew.(2001 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.(16 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.(16 Overhealed)
Shaarra's Echo of Light fades from Shaarra.
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Renew.(2001 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Renew.(2002 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Renew.(2001 Overhealed)
Shaarra's Renew fades from Shaarra.

This is my renew. Due to my haste I have 5 ticks and duration is somewhere between 12-13 seconds (haste is 18.33%)

Now watch what happens when I refresh the duration of renew with heal

Shaarra's Heal heals Shaarra for 0.(4637 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains Shaarra's Chilling Knowledge.
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.(157 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Renew.(2002 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.(157 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.(156 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.(156 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Renew.(2002 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.(156 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.(156 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Renew.(2002 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Echo of Light.(156 Overhealed)
Shaarra's Echo of Light fades from Shaarra.
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Renew.(2002 Overhealed)
Shaarra's Chilling Knowledge fades from Shaarra.
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Renew.(2001 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Renew.(2002 Overhealed)
Shaarra gains 0 Health from Shaarra's Renew.(2001 Overhealed)
Shaarra's Renew fades from Shaarra.

I just realised that renew ticks 7 times after my heal lands. I did a few experiments and after removing all my haste and timing heal to land appropriately I found that what is actually transferred here is not just the remaining time before the next tick, but a full tick as well. So if my heal hits early enough I get 17 seconds duration. The minimum is 15. That means I get one extra tick + the remaining time. So if my heal lands 2 seconds before a renew tick would occur the new renew duration will be 17 seconds. This is probably a bug. I think someone forgot the duration of renew was reduced to 12 and they are still using a 15 second base time. It may be by design though.

A similar thing is happening with EoL except we only get the remaining time not the full extra tick. I personally always see an extra tick on refreshed EoL, but I suspect if you repeated it enough, by accident a heal might land at exactly the time a tick happens and then you won't get an extra tick. You can see this happening in action. If you cast any heal without EoL you will notice that the duration of the buff that you see is 5 seconds. That is because, it starts at 6.0 exactly and there is a very slight delay before the buff appears so the duration is 5, but when you refresh the buff sometimes the duration appears to be 6 and immediately goes to 5 or it will stay 6 for a fraction of a second and then go to 5. This because the actual duration of the new HoT is 6+ the remainder so you have time to see the 6sec on your screen. The extra tick occurs when the duration runs down to exactly 6 seconds. I think this extra tick is added to a bank, but I think when the calculation of the bank occurs the extra tick is counted as though it had a value according to the previous bank. I think if the heal lands at exactly the time a tick occurs this problem the refreshed EoL may have 5 ticks only and this problem will not occur


[edit] When I tried stacking it just now I seemed unable to get it past 900 which is the value I would expect for my flash. Maybe they hotfixed it

#58 Guest_aloehart_*

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 04:47 AM

I have raided ICC and did a lot of swapping between the 2 specs. I was partnered with a holy spec priest who had no practice with the spec (or healing for that matter) so for the most part I was solo healing. After Marrowgar I asked the other healer to focus on tanks alone except on Saurfang. I couldn't properly keep anyone up if I had to constantly spam the tanks with my highest cost heal.

Gear:
I was in T10 4piece, 264 legs and cape, and 251 everywhere else except a 200 trink, 219 neck, and 232 boots.
Gemmed Int in red, int haste in yellow, int and spir in blue. All gear reforged off spirit for mastery.


Disc:
I used disc for Deathwhisper, Saurfang, and Rotface.
On Deathwhisper it was nice that I could spamheal the group with Prayer of Healing when needed without mana worries. Mainly because I could easily restore a good chunk of mana by targeting her shield and spamming 5 smites for the archangel pop.

On Saurfang since there is very little raid damage I let the other healer focus on raid while I focused on the melee and tanks. Basically I just targeted the boss and spammed smite, holy fire, and penance. To be honest I took complete advantage of Attonement and spent my time in this fight trying to dps. I pulled between 3k and 4k without heroism. At the same time the tanks and melee all stayed above 80% at all times. It was great and we burned him down exceedingly fast.

On Rotface it was a bit more challenging healing because of having to run and drop off slime as well as keep up the group alone as the other healer died right off, but it went alright. The worst moment was when the raid just did not move from the vomit and eventually people fell below 30%. I popped PW:B and Divine Hymn. Glyphed PW:B so it brought the raid up pretty quick. The remainder of the fight I was able to just spam smite and keep the raid above 40%. I would pop arc and spam PoH to bring people back to full.



Holy:
I used holy for Marrowgar, Battleship, and Festergut.
On Marrowgar it was pretty easy to heal with. I kept up the PoH chakra and kept a sanctuary under the boss. With the sanctuary up, Circle of Healing, and regular Prayer of Healing, it was a pretty simple fight. Everyone stayed in the sanctuary and it was easy to heal through bone storm.

The Battleship was trivial. It's not really much of a boss. Drop a Sanctuary offcenter on the IF ship, Renew jumpers, Circle of healing when needed, Prayer of Healing to keep chakra up. Simple

Festergut was the biggest problem. I was the healer kept at range which helped a little. I again kept up sanctuary on the boss which kept melee and tanks up a bit. It required using CoH on cooldown and a lot of renew and prayer of healing. It was the only fight in the entire run that I had to use my Shadowfiend to keep mana up. It was a constant healspam.


Overall I prefer Disc spec on stationary fights and its a great tank/melee healer. Holy is good for quickly healing up the raid and is exceptional on fights where the entire raid stacks on the boss.

#59 metapseudo

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 09:24 AM

I'm pretty sure it's not a deterministic mechanism, as I've shown in that thread. Ticks are sometimes not deduced when they happen close to a refresh, but it's not systematic (and I guess neither deliberate)


You are correct Elimbras, my deductions were too hasty.
I have checked both your formulas and the ones of Havoc and I may have spoted a flaw in his reasoning. He uses H as the amount of HoT heal at the start of this explanation and then swaps it to the amount of total healing in the end. If this is corrected both results are same and converging to Total_Raw_Heal/10.

I have used a character with 16.54% Mastery = 8 + 8.54 to experimentaly prove the theory. Here is the filtered log.
For the first 18 heals of the log, table of predicted and observed follows
Formulas used to calculate theoretical values follow the logic described in your original post:

Heal Observed 	Echo    Tic    Tics   Echo new	Tic calc.
9843	333	2035	339	1	0	
11604	683	2399	400	1	4095	682
10434	928	2157	360	1	5570	928
10256	1127	2120	353	2	6762	1127
10062	1097	2080	347	2	6588	1098
15804	1276	3267	545	1	7660	1277
9702	1398	2006	334	1	8389	1398
15612	1703	3228	538	2	10219	1703
15872	1682	3282	547	2	10094	1682
10984	1500	2271	378	1	9000	1500
15563	1786	3218	536	1	10718	1786
10815	1861	2236	373	2	11168	1861
16150	1797	3339	557	1	10784	1797
14766	2006	3053	509	1	12040	2007
10384	2030	2147	358	2	12180	2030
15073	1872	3116	519	2	11236	1873
9986	1591	2065	344		9555	1593


#60 metapseudo

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 10:13 AM

After patch applied today morning, Atonement is working at least for non-grouped scenario as seen in the log.




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