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Cataclysm Mage Resources


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#21 Kyth

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 04:50 PM

Spirit affects nothing in combat for mages, so human is also 'none'. (although EMFH and WotF are both non-dps raid advantageous racials when compared with, say, treasure finding, or "increased alchemy skill")

#22 elluminea

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 09:17 PM

Berserking should be listed as a 3 minute cooldown.

#23 Nathyiel

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 09:44 PM

Ok, I have made all change and add the cooldowns of Rocket Barrage.


I think that all racial talent are about ~1% dps, maybe more (depend on spec).

#24 Juravieal

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 02:37 AM

This may be the incorrect place, since its not technically a purely mage resource, but a resource for all raid leaders. Ive been working on a spreadsheet of buffs/debuffs for raid building, including the buffs that can be replaced by hunter pets if needed. There's a link in my sig if anyone is interested.

#25 Thazzdingo

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 10:05 AM

Thanks Nathyiel, I added your list to the opening post.

Now that the racials are added most of the topics i planned for this thread are included. If some additional topics cross your mind or if you think an existing topic could be expanded in any form, please tell me :)

#26 Doktre

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 04:24 PM

In the interest of Max/Min:

Arcane Engineers can cast Mage Ward (before the pull or with a spare GCD during movement), then use a Sapper Charge, proccing Incanter's Absorption for ~+250SP for 15 seconds.

The Sapper Charge works neatly with your AP/Berserking/Mirror Image/Haste Pot macro.

#27 Bulgarth

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 05:55 AM

Just a quick fix. You should change the meta socket information to reflect the new changes to the gem requirements for the Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond and the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond. Yes, even the Wotlk version now requires more blues then reds, at least that's what Wowhead displays.

#28 Tellestria

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 01:21 PM

Just a quick fix. You should change the meta socket information to reflect the new changes to the gem requirements for the Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond and the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond. Yes, even the Wotlk version now requires more blues then reds, at least that's what Wowhead displays.


I just checked on both Live and Wowhead and both of them are telling me that the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond still only requires 2 blue gems.

#29 willem11

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 01:58 PM

I just checked on both Live and Wowhead and both of them are telling me that the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond still only requires 2 blue gems.


Chaotic Skyflare and even Chaotic Skyfire diamonds now have the 'Requires more Blue gems than Blue gems' requirement.

On a side note, when you check wowhead, make sure you check cata.wowhead.com.

#30 Tyrian

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 02:43 PM

The "Water Elemental scaling" table needs a minor update. The WE now crits for 200% damage. Given the new Meta-requirements, you might need to include a selection of Green gems into the Gem Matrix. Getting the new meta to activate can require a little more juggling.

Also for the sake of completeness, the ilvl loot table could be updated with some extra lines:

- ilvl 359 (Raids)
- ilvl 372 (Heroics Raids)
- ilvl 379 (Sinestra)

#31 Nissin

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:26 PM

The new meta gem requirements will just change how you gear yourself, as in finding items under budgeted and lacking in hit stats and gemming blue hit gems to get the meta + hit cap.

#32 Roywyn

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:51 AM

[Edit]: Apparently, I misread the new meta gems requirements. The previous post is now outdated. I'll let it remain in spoiler tag, if anyone wants to follow the old thought for their own information.
Spoiler

Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#33 Morkai

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 03:09 AM

5) Get the remaining int+hit gems to acitivate the meta gem, most likely in (red+)blue sockets.

You actually need pure blue gems to activate the meta, purples won't do it

#34 Jept

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 04:24 AM

Green gems would satisfy the blue gem requirement while not adding the the red gem count.

#35 Tyrian

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 11:05 AM

The three PvE Green gems which can be used to push up your Blue Gem count towards the meta (yet still satisfy a Yellow socket) are: Northrend gems by stats - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Piercing: Hit + Critical
Lightning: Hit + Haste
Sensei: Hit + Mastery

And of course the stamina ones, but not sure if anyone would use those.

#36 Roywyn

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 05:04 PM

The Chaotic meta gem now requires more blue than red gems. Ouch. That's actually enough to make the Ember meta more desirable in many situations. If you want to use a Chaotic meta, you should gem one green in a yellow socket, then pairs of green/red gems in yellow/red sockets (pick those yellow sockets with the best bonuses first) and then fill the rest with purple gems. The gem parts being red = int, blue = hit, yellow = best of crit/haste/mastery. The details, break points and reasons are listed in detail in this post.


Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft - more blue than red.
Bracing Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft - at least 1 blue, 1 yellow.
Ember Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft - at least 2 yellow.
Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft - at least 2 yellow.

  • The run speed meta is not good, since it has mastery and you can gain run speed on your feet at a loss of 15 mastery. 54 intellect easily beats 54+15 mastery and similar combinations of ratings.
  • The intellect meta gems can be activated by intellect spam and 2 adjustments. The current gear allows that while even gaining DPS from socket bonuses.
  • The Chaotic diamond is painful to activate and requires some planning, but it's not too bad. Assume you have R red, Y yellow, B blue sockets on your gear.
    Fill Y yellow sockets with green gems, Y-1 red sockets with red gems and the remaining sockets with purple gems. This is the maximum you can get, since "rating>intellect" is an implicit constraint (green + red = 2*purple in that regard). Now, the above process fails if you have at least 2 more yellow than red sockets (R<Y-1, R<=Y-2). Call D=Y-1-R the amount of yellow sockets that cannot be paired up with reds. You can fill them with purple gems, or fill them pairwise with orange+green gems, trading 20 int for 20 rating + 1-2 socket bonuses. As those socket bonuses will be weak since we fill sockets with strong bonuses first (green/red combo), those remaining sockets are likely not worth it.

So, let's look at what gear is available to mages right now: Items - World of Warcraft
4/5 T11, non-set Headpiece and the rest of the good gear will give us 4 red, 4 yellow, 2 blue sockets.

[TABLE]Meta|Gems|Bonuses|Total:|Intellect|Rating|
Ember Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft|Red-; Red/Purple+; Red+; Red-; Purple+; Orange/Red+; Red+; Red-|70 intellect, 20 haste||464|80|40 hit, 20 haste, 20 choice
Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft|Green+; Red/Purple+; Red+; Green+; Purple+; Green/Red+; Purple+; Green+|80 intellect, 10 mastery, 40 haste||260|324|140 hit, 10 mastery, 40 haste, 54 crit, 80 choice
[/TABLE]
(Gems are listed in the order in which they appear in the link. +/- indicate getting/losing the set bonus. Also, the +20 haste belt bonus for the chaotic meta is likely too high.)

So, let's simplify this a bit. With Lhivera's numbers, 3 rating = 1 int (for haste/mastery, and hit can be traded after the cap. Our combinations then become "464 int + 80/3 int + 2% max. mana" and "260 int + 324/3 int + 3% crit damage", with the the crit damage now being a flat 1.03 multiplier for us (we have a X1.33 crit damage miltiplier instead of our old x2 crit bonus) and 120 intellect (the difference) being a 2% damage increase by SP/Crit alone. The Chaotic 3% can only be a damage increase if 2/3 of your damage is crit damage.

Not that this is at your current gear levels with the current amount of gems. When our gear levels increase, the value of ratings will likely increase (not as much as I initially thought though, since intellect and rating levels on gear are mostly the same), but the amount of gems will likely increase as well, which increases the loss from gemming.

  • Arcane at 33% crit has 50% crit damage, 50% noncrit damage. So the Chaotic meta part adds 1.5% damage and should not be used. The Ember meta gem adds more damage through intellect alone, and grants extra mana through intellect and the 2% max mana bonus which synergises with burn cycles and Mana Adept as well.
  • Frost is a little tougher. About 50% of the damage are DF/IL crits. The remaining 50% are FrB/FFB/FO, half of their damage being crits at 33% crit (soft cap target). So we have 75% crit damage and the Chaotic meta adds 0.75*3% = 2.25% damage, while the Ember meta adds 2% damage. This should put the Chaotic slightly above the Ember diamond since mana does not seem to be a concern.
  • Fire has a crit multiplier of ~3 with Ignite/Flashburn. Assuming 40% crit, about 2/3 of the damage is crit, so the Chaotic diamond adds 2% damage, just like the Ember diamond by SP/Crit alone. There is some more benefit from the extra mana through intellect and the additional 2% max mana since you are limited by mana/required to Scorch.
  • Since the given numbers are all estimates, we cannot make any reliable predictions yet. Arcane will probably err towards Ember, Frost possibly towards Chaotic, but they seem to be in similar ballparks. For Fire, anything I'd say could be a guess.

So, with the new "More blue than red gems." requirement, the value of the Chaotic meta takes a huge drop at level 85. The main reason being that intellect is such a powerful stat compared to the other ones. The second reason is that there are a decent amount of sockets available, 10 in the gear set above. The more sockets there are, the higher the loss for the Chaotic meta. If the amount of sockets should increase in higher tiers (like 3 in robes/leggings, 2 in shoulders/gloves/etc.), it requires even more spell power for the Chaotic meta gem to break even. Ironically, when you have just 2 or 3 sockets in weak gear, the Chaotic meta is significantly ahead until you get to tier sets.

[Addendum]: Newer numbers from World of Warcraft: Cataclysm Beta - (English) Forums -> Mage 2 Cont (Till Blizz extends megathread) bring the Chaotic and Embe closer togehter. Also, the poster below was correct, I actually messed up the numbers. They should be mostly fixed now, though.
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#37 Beasterbrown

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:57 PM

So, let's simplify this a bit. With Lhivera's numbers, 3 rating = 1 int (for haste/mastery, and hit can be traded after the cap. Our combinations then become "490 int + 2% max. mana" and "370 int + 3% crit damage", with the the crit damage now being a flat 1.03 multiplier and 220 intellect (the difference) being a 3-3.5% damage increase by SP/Crit alone. (You could stop right here, since this is more than the chaotic meta could ever do, which is capped at +3% damage at 100% crit chance, regardless of multipliers/masters/etc).



490 less 370 is 120, not 220 as your math indicates. I'm not sure if this is a typo or you actually used 220 in your calculations. Regardless, if you use 120, Ember is still better, just not by the huge margin you calculated.

#38 Nathyiel

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 03:08 PM

2 things:
First, Blood fury (orc) have been nerf to 584 spell power.


Second, I have made some calculation to compare Ember meta and Chaotic meta for the Frost spec and with Deep Freeze.

Deep Freeze's coefficient: 2.1431
frost spec: +25% (x1.25)
mastery (0 pt): +20% (x1.2)
Glyph of Deep Freeze: +20% (x1.2)
Crit coefficient: 200% (x3)

Total multiplier: 2.1431*1.25*1.2*1.2*3 = 11.57274
Total with Chaotic meta: 11.57274*1.03 = 11.9199222

For 5k spell power without meta: 5000*11.57274 = 57863.7
For 5k spell power with Ember meta: 5054*11.57274 = 58488.62796 (+624.9)
For 5k spell power with Chaotic meta: 5000*11.9199222 = 59599.611 (+1735.9 / +1111)

The difference is +1111 damages in favor of Chaotic. It's only +734 with 4k SP and +70 with 2k SP. For 8k SP, the difference jump above 2k damage (~2.1%). For reference, with 5k SP, the difference is only +271 damage for Ice Lance and +162 for Frostbolt (33% crit).


This can be explain by the Mastery, the number of crit due to Shatter and the poor coefficient of Frostbolt. The Chaotic meta and Piercing green gem can be useful to obtain the 33% crit cap.

#39 Venthos

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 05:33 AM

However, Frost is also the spec that is most mana efficient. It also benefits quite a bit from crit damage, as its main procs have a 3x chance to crit.

Fire might be more even, as it's been having some mana issues, and Arcane could easily lean towards ember.

It's too bad that the Insightful cut didn't make it into Cataclysm, but it's probably because all healers benefit from spirit now.

#40 Thazzdingo

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 12:52 AM

I was quite busy this week, so I just quick-edited the OP without mentioning it in the thread itself. I just quote the current "Latest Changes" here, that are mostly the topics discussed in the latest posts. An exception is the new Raidbuff overview - make sure to have a look at this one, too. Correct me if I'm missing any caster relevant buffs entirely or in a specific Spec.

Latest Changes
- Updated Orc Racial (584 SP instead of 1485)
- Added green gems
- Water Elemental Crit Dmg Multiplier is now 200% instead of 150%
- Reworked the Raid Buff overview (I'm not sure what to do with the "other" category yet)
- Added Off-Hand Enchant, Updated Leg Enchant (now 95 Int & 80 Stamina instead of 60 Int & 45 Stamina)
- Removed Chaotic Skyflare Diamond because of the new gem requirements for Chaotic Diamonds (more blue than red gems instead of more blue than yellow ones)



Edit: The Spell Coefficient table is still outdated. If someone has time to spare... ;)




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