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The MM hunter in 4.0.1


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#21 KergeKacsa

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:03 PM

Whitefyst, you have a lot of valid comments, I give you that.
Could you give us a talent build with your choices for raiding?

Some of your points need some further tests:
- CA vs. crit: It could be correct not to put the second point in here over 70% crit, but I think few of us will get this crit level, when gemming to Agi. (Yesterday we get the patch I can check it, if nobody checks it sooner.) It would be surprise if RK would be a better place for the points.
- Sic'Em vs. Rapid Killing: Sic'em is not beneficial, but since our pet can "convert" mouch more focus into damage, I would vote for Sic'em.
- Silencing Shot: It need a talent point, a glyph AND a succesfull interrupt to get 10 focus. I Don1t think it will happen that much to worth it. (Even if we could have some sort of space in Major Glyphs.)
- Termination simple need some testing in a raid. (Or a good spread sheet from Shandra ;) )

Thank you for the well written ideas.

#22 MizarAlcor

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:26 PM

As for the argument over and of the viability of SilS in raids, it has been discussed deeply on various posts and threads, comparing it with other classes' interrupts. There is however, at least for content that is left in 4.0.1, one benefit for speccing into SilS, that is when someone has not beaten LK in normal mode. Getting pulled into Frostmourne as Survival before outgearing the encounter was not easy. At least for 4.0.1, we have another option of bringing an interrupt pet I suppose, but it's not like we're having much choices in appealing DPs talents when it comes to that single talent point you're going to put into SilS.

As for future raiding application (as in Cata), there may or may not be any boss encounter requiring any individual interrupt like LK. It is intended to be a utility talent after all, something that whether you want to spec into it depends on encounter and raid comps, especially with the possible prevalence of 10m raids as compared to 25m raids in cata.

#23 Whitefyst

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:30 PM

Whitefyst, you have a lot of valid comments, I give you that.
Could you give us a talent build with your choices for raiding?

Some of your points need some further tests:
- CA vs. crit: It could be correct not to put the second point in here over 70% crit, but I think few of us will get this crit level, when gemming to Agi. (Yesterday we get the patch I can check it, if nobody checks it sooner.) It would be surprise if RK would be a better place for the points.
- Sic'Em vs. Rapid Killing: Sic'em is not beneficial, but since our pet can "convert" mouch more focus into damage, I would vote for Sic'em.
- Silencing Shot: It need a talent point, a glyph AND a succesfull interrupt to get 10 focus. I Don1t think it will happen that much to worth it. (Even if we could have some sort of space in Major Glyphs.)
- Termination simple need some testing in a raid. (Or a good spread sheet from Shandra ;) )

Thank you for the well written ideas.


Here is what I am currently leaning to for level 80: 2/31/3
Note:
- The 2 in OwN could be moved to IKC if RiF procs enough to make it worthwhile. With so many questions with RiF, I prefer the constant AP on essentially all attacks.
- If our crit rate is enough below 70%, then moving a second point into CA would be done. This point would probably come from RiF
- If I see with Wild Hunt that my pet is not maintaining its focus high enough often enough despite the high crit rate with 2/2 GftT and 1/2 Sic'Em, then I would move another point into Sic'Em, probably from RiF.
- Concerning Silencing Shot, I was persuaded to spec it even before the glyph became available just because of the fact that the macroed use of it will silence casters and improve raid survivability and the small situational uses of it as a ranged interrupt. The glyph is just an added bonuses to already having the shot and the fact that there are not really any DPS beneficial major glyphs for MM. Plus, anytime you did get the 10 focus, it would help counteract part of the focus deficit in the "optimal" MM rotation, but it is nothing something I plan to rely on. Note that I had SilS specced in Wrath since it did DPS. Although I never had to use it as an interrupt, I did see plenty of times in logs where it did interrupt the target although I was not even trying to do so.
- I feel very good about the remainder of the points such that they need no explanation.

At 85, I currently plan to spec 5/33/3 if RiF pans out and 7/31/3 if RiF is not beneficial.

Note:
- These specs have 2/2 CA and Sic'Em since they should be needed at level 85 with relatively lower end gear and with crit rate scaling on bosses with tier progression.
- It is possible that if my haste (SS cast time and focus regen) is low enough that I may move a point in the BM tree into Termination.

#24 Modran

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:36 PM

Have you also mentioned that pets also scale off 100% of their masters' haste and crit? With spider's bite (assuming the use of a ferocity pet) and the base melee critical strike chance, they will always have +15%~ more crit than their master.

#25 MizarAlcor

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:56 PM

Have you also mentioned that pets also scale off 100% of their masters' haste and crit? With spider's bite (assuming the use of a ferocity pet) and the base melee critical strike chance, they will always have +15%~ more crit than their master.


As far as I know, this scaling does not include the base crit (and probably haste) that the hunter has. I am not sure what the base crit value is for the hunter at 80, but some beta testers reported that pets have higher than 15% more crit than the master after talent at 85, because hunters will have a base of -1.5% crit chance at 85, while pets have 0% base crit chance.

#26 Rivkah

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:03 PM

I would also add to the consumables list strength scrolls for the pet. Currently pets will benefit from strength scrolls and as they no longer receive buffs there is no stacking conflict.

Also to be clear, pets scale with the melee attack speed bonus that the hunter gets, not directly with haste. This means that ranged attack speed and ranged haste buffs (such as pathing and rapid fire) will not buff pet attack speed.

#27 Arafeek

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:09 PM

I've pretty much decided that I will not waste both my specs on the MM tree. I would like to be productive, efficient and versatile. With that being said, in order to make that come fruition I believe this MM-Spec (3-31-2) is best suited for me.

Realy the only difference is I only put 1 point in termination instead of 2/2. I put the extra point in SilS for 10mans/Dungeons/PvP.

Now for the bonus 5 points I opted to go with 3/3 OwN and 2/3 Pathing. The reason for this, being that I'm an engineer, so I got haste buff on gloves, I got haste pots, I got talents to imp. haste overall... It just seems logical to me that 30%ap / 2& haste > 20%ap / 3%haste.

#28 Xoran

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:31 PM

Arafeek, that is 234 ap vs 216 ap or 1% ranged haste. I have a gut feeling that the equivalent of 33 hasterating might be better than 18 ap.

#29 Arafeek

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:59 PM

Arafeek, that is 234 ap vs 216 ap or 1% ranged haste. I have a gut feeling that the equivalent of 33 hasterating might be better than 18 ap.


So your saying this:

20% increase to AotH = 216
30% increase to AotH = 234

I'm confused, maybe I'm calculating this all wrong, and who knows I could be. I'm just convinced that the ap gain is much, much larger than only 18ap. I don't have exact numbers here so I'll just go from the tooltip found here

AotH: The hunter takes on the aspects of a hawk, increasing ranged attack power by 637.92. Only one Aspect can be active at a time. I'm assuming this is lvl 80, I could be wrong.

So using the number 637.92 these are the numbers I get.

637.92 x 20% = 127.584
637.92 x 30% = 191.376

So the difference is 63.792

Now you can argue whats more beneficial 64ap or 33 haste.. But like i said, with the extra haste buffs I have, I feel like opting for the ap may be in my best interest.

#30 Arafeek

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:15 PM

Just cuz I'm still not sure of the exact ap gained from the new AotH at Lvl80, I'll provide an example for the Lvl85 version.

1620 x 20% = 324
1620 x 30% = 486

So at lvl 85, it is a 162ap difference. I find it hard to believe that at lvl 80 it would only be 18ap.

#31 sunsmoon

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:35 PM

Now you can argue whats more beneficial 64ap or 33 haste.. But like i said, with the extra haste buffs I have, I feel like opting for the ap may be in my best interest.


Speaking purely from an itemization points Point of View, 20 agility = 20 attack power (held true on the PTR, despite the announcement.. waiting to check on live). With 10% being an increase of 64 AP, it's worth a little more than 3 gem slots, versus 1% haste being worth one and 2/3rds. Assuming my notes are wrong and it is, indeed, 20 agility = 40 attack power, it's 1.6 gems vs 1.65 gems.

Edit: My notes are wrong or it was updated after the ptr: 1agi = 2ap.

#32 Jaffi

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:36 PM

I calculated that 246 hit rating will be cap.

1 hit rating = 0,0325174825174825 %
so
246 hit rating = 7,999300699300695 % = 8% rounded to 2nd position after comma, like wow does
or (for draenei)
216 hit rating = 7,02377622377622 % + 1% racial = 8,02 % rounded

Calculated the percentage value for 1 hit rating from my charactersheet on the ptr yesterday.

#33 Arafeek

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:57 PM

I calculated that 246 hit rating will be cap.

1 hit rating = 0,0325174825174825 %
so
246 hit rating = 7,999300699300695 % = 8% rounded to 2nd position after comma, like wow does
or (for draenei)
216 hit rating = 7,02377622377622 % + 1% racial = 8,02 % rounded

Calculated the percentage value for 1 hit rating from my charactersheet on the ptr yesterday.



I've seen the number 247 thrown out quite a bit.

#34 MizarAlcor

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 08:10 PM

I calculated that 246 hit rating will be cap.

1 hit rating = 0,0325174825174825 %
so
246 hit rating = 7,999300699300695 % = 8% rounded to 2nd position after comma, like wow does
or (for draenei)
216 hit rating = 7,02377622377622 % + 1% racial = 8,02 % rounded

Calculated the percentage value for 1 hit rating from my charactersheet on the ptr yesterday.


You would want to round up the hit rating part instead of the hit % part. Up until now, pet's hit rating will get rounded down to the nearest integer, meaning that even if the hunter has 7.999% repeating hit chance, the pet will only inherit 7% hit. Now whether they have fixed this issue or not for the patch I am not sure but 247 rating instead of 246 (for non-draenei) seems like a safer bet.

#35 Hirgux

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:22 PM

Resistance is Futile:
Ok, maybe here I got a little confused.
a.) After proccing it gives you a buff, which gives you back the KC focus cost, OR
b.) You cast a KC, and IF it procced, you get back your focus cost?
If b.) then nevermind, it just junk. :(


On beta it worked like this; you put hunters mark on a mob and when it moves it could proc RiF. Now you have 8 sec to gather enough focus to cast KC - this KC does not cost focus, but in order to cast it you need to have it's 40 (?) focus available. So it's a).

And for hit you may want to read my post here: http://elitistjerks....41/#post1760307

#36 Reuk

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:27 PM

How does Mared for Death works ? I dont understand it, if its just like a hunters mark why do they mention that you can still stealth, and what is that supposed to mean ? does it mean that you can still see them when they stealth or does it mean that its worse than Hunters Mark, and if thats the case, what is the point of that talent ? when you can Hunter`s Mark a boss even before you pull it, sounds to me like a complete waste of 2 talent points.

#37 danshot

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:45 PM

How does Mared for Death works ? I dont understand it, if its just like a hunters mark why do they mention that you can still stealth, and what is that supposed to mean ? does it mean that you can still see them when they stealth or does it mean that its worse than Hunters Mark, and if thats the case, what is the point of that talent ? when you can Hunter`s Mark a boss even before you pull it, sounds to me like a complete waste of 2 talent points.


You no longer need to cast Hunter's mark. Say you are doing HLK and killing raging spirits, frost spheres or single targeting the last valk you get the extra dps boost without spending a GCD.

#38 Reuk

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:49 PM

You no longer need to cast Hunter's mark. Say you are doing HLK and killing raging spirits, frost spheres or single targeting the last valk you get the extra dps boost without spending a GCD.


You would get a bigger DPS boost from Resistance is Futile on that situation though, or You would get a free snare on the Valks from Concussive Barrage, A free hunters mark does not sound better than the other 2 bad options, and thats the sad part about it.

Edit: Also, How big of a damage boost is it ? were talking about adds, that usually dont live long enough to be Debuffed/Doted, So if you dont Hunter`s Mark first you`re already losing damage on your first chimera, if the adds doesnt last long enough for a second one, whats the point ?

#39 danshot

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:55 PM

You would get a bigger DPS boost from Resistance is Futile on that situation though, or You would get a free snare on the Valks from Concussive Barrage, A free hunters mark does not sound better than the other 2 bad options, and thats the sad part about it.


how would RiF be better against frost spheres or raging spirits? I imagine someone else will have the valk slowed too.

#40 Reuk

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:59 PM

how would RiF be better against frost spheres or raging spirits? I imagine someone else will have the valk slowed too.


Well, Resistance is Futile is kinda meh, but if you look at it, even Rapid Killing is better, Specially for AoE Packs, since most likely you`ll be getting last hits on some of them, thats free Focus + extra dmg on your next Aimed/SS.
My point actually is, come on, thats a Tier 6 talent, are you serious ? thats not even good for a boss fight w/o adds. and its a tier 6 talent, branched off of something that has nothing to do with it!




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