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The MM hunter in 4.0.1


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#541 Guest_Adyssa_*

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 02:48 PM

The discussions about Chimera versus Arcane early on showed that Chimera was the better choice. This was mainly due to the fact that you lose 1 second of Steady Shot cast time if you cast 2 Arcane Shots instead of 1 Chimera. At 1.5 second Steady cast time, you lose 2/3rds the damage of a full Steady as well 2/3rds the focus it would have generated. This was the case even if Chimera was not refreshing Serpent Sting (if it was refreshing it, it was very clearly the best choice). It was still quite close, though, and if you weren't able to fill the down time with Steady Shots (if you were moving, for example), then Arcane was better.

Now, however, Chimera does approximately double the damage for double the cost, making it the same damage per focus but taking half as long to use. It's a very clear winner now.

Also, Arcane Shot crits proc Sic Em and Chimera crits get 30% added damage from Piercing Shots. I'd wager Piercing Shots is the stronger talent, putting Chimera even more ahead of Arcane.

EDIT: Had 10% for piercing shots. It's 10% per point.

#542 Guest_26thraider_*

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 08:38 PM

The setting that was being discussed was singular trash or minibosses that weren't expected to live long enough for SerpSting to be worth it, and for Steady/Cobra Shot to be impractical (of course if Hunters are required to spend all focus before the adds then they should use it when possible). A good example would be the oozes and goos at Purticide. On such fights it isn't always likely that Chimera will be up right away, leading to a 'near-the-end' scenario for the shot. Obviously that lowers the value of Piercing Shots (30% damage to crits btw).

While not bosses, it has been stated by blues several times that Blizzard like addfights that doesn't have to involve AoE. Thus it can be a highly important thing to figure out which approach is the best.
Seeing the numbers so far posted, it looks like you are pretty much going to have an even value for either approach.

Another aspect to cover is if the add will die rather fast, then burning a load of focus now might be best as it means the Hunter has spent more of his/her full potential, instead of sitting afterwards with 35 focus left over. Similarly a late Chimera might just end getting wasted due to the fast death of the add, leading to a much higher focuswastage.

So, for fast killed adds, if you can fire Chimera right away, it looks to be the most practical shot, however if it is on cooldown, using AS only might lead to slightly less DPS on the add but considerably less wasted focus. Basically, be very observant.

#543 Whitefyst

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 11:37 PM

I put in the new 4.03a numbers for the MM shots into the spreadsheet that I had used to evaluate MM "rotations", the CS glyph, and Termination. Below are the results.

The same caveats as in my previous posts on these topics still apply here with the same “rotations” unless listed otherwise. Once again, the term rotation is a lose definition with the rotation provided the ideal guideline. This analysis was done at level 80, so it does not correlate 100% with the situation at 85. I will redo the analysis once I have level 85 data.

The numbers for each of my shots I got from Female Dwarf with including the PS damage and are (without CA talented):

KS: 9322
CS: 17596
AI: 9944 (13715 during CA phase)
AS: 6736
SS: 4333 (5976 during CA phase)

With the high CS damage now relative to KS, one change that I did make for all cases (even the non-CS glyph case) was to move CS as higher priority over KS.

KS glyph Versus CS glyph Comparison and no Termination

Careful Aim Rotation Range (between 100% and 80% boss health):

This range has the same numbers as for the Standard Rotation Range. I evaluated rotations at each of the rates that just did CS off CD, AI procs, and the rest all SSs to use only CS and the shots that benefit from CA. However, at the slower SS cast rates, it was a DPS loss as shown below:

@1.5s SS cast time: -525 DPS for special CA rotation
@1.25s SS cast time: -648 DPS for special CA rotation (worse since dead time in cycle)
@1.0s SS cast time: +121 DPS for special CA rotation

The reasons that the slower SS cast time CA rotations are worse is because AS still out damages SS (6736 to 5976) and since the SS cast time is longer than the AS GCD, resulting in less shots per CS cycle. At the 1s SS cast time, both the CA special rotation and standard rotations have the same number of shots, and the CA rotatiomn does a little better DPS since the extra AIs and damage per AI makes up for the damage difference between using an SS instead of an AS. Thus, using the special CA rotation is only beneficial with current numbers at 80 if you have SS near a 1s cast time (i.e., use Rapid Fire over the first 20%). Otherwise, it is better to still use your standard rotation.

However, due to the higher AI and SS damage, this range does favor the CS glyph with the following results using the shot differences listed for the Standard Rotation Range.

@1.5s SS cast time: CS glyph winning by about 108 DPS.
@1.25s SS cast time: CS glyph winning by about 162 DPS.
@1.0s SS cast time: CS glyph winning by about 164 DPS.

Standard Rotation Range (between 80% and 20% boss health):

@1.5s SS cast time: 4.175 AS versus 1.15 CS, 0.575 AI, and 1.65 SS
The CS glyph version wins by about 54 DPS.

@1.25s SS cast time: about 2.2 AS versus 1.09 CS, 0.55 AI, and 0.46 SS
The CS glyph case is better by about 131 DPS.

@1.0s SS cast time: 1 AS and 0.5 SS versus 1 CS and 0.5 AI
The CS glyph case is about 152 DPS better.

Kill Shot Rotation Range (20% boss health and below):

@1.5s SS cast time: 5 KS and 13.75 AS versus 2.5 CS, 1.25 AI, and 10 SS
Note that for the KS glyph case that I evaluated several possible “rotations”. These included a 11s cycle built around the KS CD, a 12s cycle built around the KS CD but with an extra AS to use the extra focus, and a 10s cycle built around the CS CD with KS location floating and doing an extra SS and AS on the cycle where no KS can be cast and not maintaining ISS on the other cycles (only casting 3 SSs on those). Of these options, the 12s cycle is the best for longer duration KS phases and the 10s cycle is better in the shorter KS phases where you do not get to the non-KS cast cycle. I chose the 12s version for the analysis. The KS glyph case worked 439 DPS better.

@1.25s SS cast time: about 6.36 KS and 5.45 AS versus 1.82 CS, 0.91 AI, and 7.27 SS
The KS glyph case is 261 DPS better. Note that for the KS glyph case that a 11s KS rotation is 53 DPS better than a 10s CS rotation with floating KS.

@1.0s SS cast time: 1 AS and 0.5 SS versus 1 CS and 0.5 AI
The KS glyph case is 125 DPS better. Note that for the KS glyph case that a 11s KS rotation is still better.

Complete Range (assuming proportional times)

@1.5s SS cast time: KS glyph is about 34 DPS better (worse over first two phases but making up the difference in KS phase)
@1.25s SS cast time: CS glyph is about 59 DPS better
@1s SS cast time: CS glyph is about 99 DPS better


KS glyph Versus CS glyph With Termination Comparison

Non-Kill Shot Range (25% to 20% boss health):
Didn’t evaluate since small duration and it does not change things much.

Kill Shot Rotation Range (20% boss health and below):

@1.5s SS cast time: 5 KS versus 2.5 CS and 2.5 AS
The CS glyph with Termination is about 158 DPS better over this range, making this choice about 86 DPS better overall. Adding in the loss to autoshot damage due to only 94% ISS uptime, the difference is a little smaller.

@1.25s SS cast time: about 6.36 KS, 0.34 AI, and 2.73 SS versus 1.82 CS, and 5.8 AS
The CS glyph with Termination is about 39 DPS worse over this range, making this choice about 103 DPS better overall.

@1.0s SS cast time: 6.36 KS, 0.34 AI, and 2.73 SS versus 1.82 CS and 7.61 AS
The CS glyph with Termination is about 98 DPS better over this range, making this choice about 144 DPS better overall.

Current Summary
1) A special Careful Aim range rotation is not needed, unless you are hasted near the 1s SS cast time during the CA phase. Still use your standard priority over the first 20% of boss health unless hasted.
2) If going with the CS glyph, probably best to also spec Termination.
3) Although can get a little better DPS with CS glyph in most situations, I still recommend not using it for the following reasons:
a) It is not much of a DPS improvement in any of the ideal SS cast time cases listed. Maximum is 144 DPS out of 12259 or 1.18%. The benefit of the glyph is lessened with less ideal SS cast times.
B) The benefit of the CS glyph assumes always casting it off CD. Not casting CS immediately off CD hurts the CS glyph numbers relative to the KS glyph numbers.
c) Speccing Termination with the CS glyph uses two talent points that could be spent elsewhere like in Bombardment for better AoE or RiF for focus free KCs that can make up for the DPS difference over a raid night.
d) The KS glyph is better at longer SS cast times with the CS glyph being better at shorter SS cast times. With less haste on gear at 85 than now and longer boss fights with less dynamic haste uptime, the situation favors the KS glyph more.

#544 wilegenuis

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:22 AM

I wonder if the numbers above are taking into consideration that change of shot priorities during the CA period? Based on WHU site, Frostheim believes that at the first 20% of the boss fight when you have the CA talent and considering the Piercing Shots effect, using the AS is a DPS loss and you should prefer SS over it.

due to the much lower SS damage post 4.03a. Another factor is that with about a 55% crit rate without CA, a decent amount of the second point in CA was wasted.


WHU article was published based on 4.0.3 facts and was not tested with 4.0.3a, do you think that this fact may change the logic?

#545 Whitefyst

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 02:22 PM

I wonder if the numbers above are taking into consideration that change of shot priorities during the CA period? Based on WHU site, Frostheim believes that at the first 20% of the boss fight when you have the CA talent and considering the Piercing Shots effect, using the AS is a DPS loss and you should prefer SS over it.

WHU article was published based on 4.0.3 facts and was not tested with 4.0.3a, do you think that this fact may change the logic?


Yes, the above evalauted using a special CA rotation. As stated above, with the current level 80 numbers for my character, the special CA rotation was only a benefit when I was hasted close to a 1s SS cast time. When not close to the 1s SS cast time, the special CA rotation had less shots per CS cycle resulting in less DPS.

The analysis previously did not include the PS effect. I am used to the spreadsheet where the PS damage is factored into the average shot damage and did not originally realize that the Female Dwarf numbers do not include the PS damage. I updated the average shot numbers in my analysis to include the PS effect using the crit rate for the range being analyzed (100% for AI and SS during CA phase and 55.32% for CS always and AI and SS outside of CA range). I updated the previous post with the data corrected with factoring in the PS effect.

This all needs to reevaluated with level 85 shot numbers, but I do not have that data yet. At 85, the results will tend to be at the lower haste range, which favors the KS glyph more. Also, our crit rates will be lower, meaning that the full CA crit benefit will apply to AI and SS; however, our crit rates will probably be below 100% during the CA phase and much lower than now during the rest of the fights, resulting in PS being a much lower part of our damage, which will favor AS more relatively.

#546 Guest_26thraider_*

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 05:06 AM

The CA Steady vs Arcane has been mentioned slightly on and off the last couple of pages, but in my opinion the more important aspect of inverse scaling of talents with stats is somewhat more important.

The obvious one is CA and Crit, however having 1 point should remain good for the entire expansion given it is a set value of extra crit.

The less obvious one is that of Piercing Shots (as well as Master Marksman) and Haste. More Haste leads to less Steadies overall. Yes, a bit of Haste will not change 'rotations' as such, but at some point there will be a bit extra Focus lying around, and then it become imperative to use it since Arcane Shot is better than Steady Shot. As it should be. So over time as Hunters gear up, there will be less Steadies and more Arcanes. Less Steadies leads to less Aimed Shots as well. But since Chimera is supposed to be used on cooldown as much as possible, there isn't really an increase in it's usage.
Thus slowly Piercing Shots will drop in value. As noted with Careful Aim, it doesn't have to be a problem that talents lose value over time. The problem is just, it is all or nothing with PS. The bleed isn't a cap-able effect, so putting less than three points in it is not really viable. So if 2/3 is worth it, then 0/3 should be worth it too (provided there is somewhere to put the points).

I looked through the other classes, and the only cases where I could see somewhat similar things was with Death Knights and Killing Machine (as they get more Crit this talent will be worth less presumably), Warlocks and Impending Doom (this is convoluted though and isn't really tied into stats) and of course Elental Shamans and Lava Burst.
But in none of these cases is there an alteration of what they use as a result of changed stats. The best analogy I can come up with would be if Pyroblast didn't cause Ignite when it would Crit.
It is rather funny that the better geared the Hunter gets, the less focusefficient he/she becomes (due to loss of Aimed Shots).

I'm not sure that the total devaluation of PS will be something noteworthy. But I think it is worth looking at this.
The obvious solution to this would be to include Arcane Shot in Piercing Shots. Why it isn't is a riddle to me personally, given that the similar talents (Deep Wounds and Ignite) both include all direct damage at least. Not that all classes need to work in the same manner, but in this case, diversity isn't an advantage. At least it looks like the eventual 'loss' from this will be relatively minor.

#547 Archemese

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 08:54 AM

I'm able to use the link for other classes to see the suggested talent calculators but the ones for this thread do not seem to be working properly. Is it possible that it be updated?

#548 Whitefyst

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:49 AM

The obvious one is CA and Crit, however having 1 point should remain good for the entire expansion given it is a set value of extra crit.

The less obvious one is that of Piercing Shots (as well as Master Marksman) and Haste. More Haste leads to less Steadies overall. Yes, a bit of Haste will not change 'rotations' as such, but at some point there will be a bit extra Focus lying around, and then it become imperative to use it since Arcane Shot is better than Steady Shot. As it should be. So over time as Hunters gear up, there will be less Steadies and more Arcanes. Less Steadies leads to less Aimed Shots as well. But since Chimera is supposed to be used on cooldown as much as possible, there isn't really an increase in it's usage.
Thus slowly Piercing Shots will drop in value. As noted with Careful Aim, it doesn't have to be a problem that talents lose value over time. The problem is just, it is all or nothing with PS. The bleed isn't a cap-able effect, so putting less than three points in it is not really viable. So if 2/3 is worth it, then 0/3 should be worth it too (provided there is somewhere to put the points).

I looked through the other classes, and the only cases where I could see somewhat similar things was with Death Knights and Killing Machine (as they get more Crit this talent will be worth less presumably), Warlocks and Impending Doom (this is convoluted though and isn't really tied into stats) and of course Elental Shamans and Lava Burst.
But in none of these cases is there an alteration of what they use as a result of changed stats. The best analogy I can come up with would be if Pyroblast didn't cause Ignite when it would Crit.
It is rather funny that the better geared the Hunter gets, the less focusefficient he/she becomes (due to loss of Aimed Shots).

I'm not sure that the total devaluation of PS will be something noteworthy. But I think it is worth looking at this.
The obvious solution to this would be to include Arcane Shot in Piercing Shots. Why it isn't is a riddle to me personally, given that the similar talents (Deep Wounds and Ignite) both include all direct damage at least. Not that all classes need to work in the same manner, but in this case, diversity isn't an advantage. At least it looks like the eventual 'loss' from this will be relatively minor.


First, concerning CA, not just one but both points should be good for the entire expansions since
1) Our crit rates will be lower throughout the whole expansion. It will be lower to start due to the lower end gear and will stay lower than what we had in Wrath since crit will inverse scale with each tier level of boss.
2) Even if the second point in CA is not fully used, there really is not anything else better to spend the points in DPS-wise.

Concerning PS, you overstate the situation and may actually have it in inverse. Sure as our gear scales, more haste generally means faster steady shots and more arcane shots, but you are still going to be doing at least the 4 SSs per CS cycle to maintain ISS in most cases. Your amount of SSs is not really going to change the number of SSs you do much. At most you will do one less SSs per cycle every now and then.

On the other had, as your gear scales, your crit rate increases. This results in a higher percentage of your CSs, AIs, and SSs critting, which increases the value of PS.

#549 Whitefyst

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:58 PM

Now that Female Dwarf is up and running with a level 85 version with which I can play, I have done some analysis at level 85 with roughly best-in-slot pre-heroic/raid gear (gear from quests, normal dungeons, justice points, rep rewards, and crafting with drops from non-heroics). The stats on target with this gear set up are with using all buffs/debuffs are:

Agility: 5840
Attack Power: 14495 (Effective on Target: 16554)
Hit: 8.02% (Chance to hit: 100%)
Crit: 31.31% on target
Mastery Bonus: 22.9% Wild Quiver Proc
Display Haste Bonus: 7.43% (Avg Autoshot Speed 2.32)
Static Focus Shot Cast Time: 1.66 sec
Focus Shot w/ ISS/Frenzy: 1.44 sec

To start, I analyzed whether a special Careful Aim (CA) rotation was worth it when the boss is above 80% health. This is a rotation that does not use Arcane Shot (AS) over that range.

From my level 80 analysis, I had stated that a special CA rotation was not worth since:
1) The higher crit average SS damage (with the additional AI damage and PS factored in) was barely better than the average AS damage
2) If having a slow SS cast time, you were losing shots per CS cycle which was by far a much greater DPS loss than the gain by using the higher crit shots
3) In order to make the special CS rotation worthwhile with the level 80 numbers, you had to be under dynamic haste effect in that range so that your SS cast times where near the 1s GCD so that you were not losing shots per CS cycle. However, this required the use of RF (and Bloodlust) over the CA range, which would result in a lot of wasted focus. With 1 CS and 9 SSs, that is a net of 37 focus wasted per CS cycle just from the shots. Adding in the focus regen from haste (~80) and RR (40), that is 157 focus wasted per 10s CS rotation. Correcting this for the AI per cycle that would done, that is 148 focus per CS cycle wasted or 14.8 focus per second. That is a lot of waster focus.

I then predicted without seeing any of the level 85 numbers, that the situation would still be true.

Well, I was wrong.

SS/AI damage during the CA phase is now so much better than AS from the numbers generated of Female Dwarf that it is very clear. During the CA cycle, here is the average damage I compute for each shot using the numbers from Female Dwarf and with including PS benefits:

CS: 23724 (@ 31.32% crit rate)
KS: 12910 (@ 31.32% crit rate)
AI: 26332 (@ 91.32% CA crit rate) / 14950 (@ 31.32% crit rate)
AS: 9713 (@31.32% crit rate)
SS: 11710 (@ 91.32% CA crit rate) / 7067 (@ 31.32% crit rate)

As can be seen, the SS damage alone is well above the AS damage. Here is the DPS benefit I see for the CA rotation with my current numbers at each of the 3 SS cast times I have analyzed previously:

@1.5s: -317 DPS (lose 7.82 shots over 90s)
@1.25s: -66 DPS (lose 9 shots over 90s - extra lost shots due to gap to wait to fire CS off CD)
@1s: +1430 DPS (no shots lost)

Here are the differences that I get on Female Dwarf under various scenarios for DPS over the whole fight (not just the first 20%):

1) No RF or BL over the CA period (RF disabled and BL 50% into the fight)
Standard Rotation: 18144
CA Rotation: 18109 (-36 DPS)
Average SS cast time in CA range: 1.443

2) RF and BL both in the CA period but not overlapping and each covering 30s of the CA phase
Standard Rotation: 18846
CA Rotation: 19064 (+218 DPS)
Average SS cast time in CA range: 1.06

3) RF and BL both in the CA period but overlapping at start of fight
Standard Rotation: 18660
CA Rotation: 18783 (+123 DPS)
Average SS cast time in CA range: ~1.2

So as it can be seen with the current numbers for the shots I am getting in Female Dwarf for pre-heroic level 85 gear, both Female Dwarf and my hand analysis indicate that it is beneficial to use the special CA rotation (no AS) during the first 20% of the boss health as long as you are under dynamic haste effects, which we would normally be having dynamic haste effects in this range anyway so that we can hopefully maximize RF uptime. The preference is still not do overlap dynamic haste effects. If the raid is casting BL at the start, then delay casting RF until BL wears off unless its going to cost you to miss a RF latter, in which case go ahead and overlap RF.

One final observation here:

Kill Shot is not really much of a Kill Shot anymore. We have two shots, CS and AI, that do more damage, with CS doing considerably more damage.

#550 Narcosleepy

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 03:05 AM

In the interest of Cataclysm launching tonight we are going to close the current threads. I have sent a PM to the OP to see if they wish to continue their much appreciated work in the Cataclysm thread. In the meantime if you are interested in authoring the Cataclysm thread (or assisting) please send me a PM.
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