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The MM hunter in 4.0.1


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#41 Dispiosan

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 11:33 PM

Saw this at WHU by Frostheim. Seen a few posts about pet scaling so figure its worth posting this.

Hunter Stat Conversion at Level 85:
Ratings
120.109 Hit Rating = 1% Hit
179.29 Crit Rating = 1% Crit
128.057 Haste Rating = 1% Haste
179.28 Mastery Rating = 1 Mastery

Attack Power
14 AP (attack power) = 1 dps (auto-shot)

Agility
1 Agility = 2 AP
324.85 Agility = 1% crit
1 Agil = .55 Crit Rating

Global Cooldown
1 second


Hunter Stat Conversion to Pet
Pets Gain:
42.5% of hunter AP
100% of hunter hit as both hit and expertise (so if you are hit capped, your pet is hit and exp capped)
100% of hunter haste
100% of hunter crit

Ferocity
67% of hunter stamina
50% of hunter armor

Cunning
72.5% of hunter stamina
60% of hunter armor

Tenacity
78% of hunter stamina
70% of hunter armor

#42 danshot

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 11:40 PM

Well, Resistance is Futile is kinda meh, but if you look at it, even Rapid Killing is better, Specially for AoE Packs, since most likely you`ll be getting last hits on some of them, thats free Focus + extra dmg on your next Aimed/SS.
My point actually is, come on, thats a Tier 6 talent, are you serious ? thats not even good for a boss fight w/o adds. and its a tier 6 talent, branched off of something that has nothing to do with it!


What AoE packs are there for bosses? I just don't see Rapid Killing useful for ICC 25. While it's an awful Tier 6 talent, it's still the best option available.

Marrowgar-Maybe a bone spike?
Deathwhisper-Hunters in my guild stick on LDW in final phase.
Gunship-Who cares?
Saurfang-On boss whole fight
Plague-I guess I could get lucky on a slime/ooze kill on PP?
Princes-I doubt the keleseth tank would appreciate me killing orbs to get more deeps.
BQ-Nope
Sindragosa-Tombs only
LK-Ice spheres are the only thing we could reliably get a kill on.

#43 zafro

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:38 AM

Is anyone clear on where Steady shot's cast time should be sitting in town unbuffed?
Also, can anyone provide a Pet tree . preferably for wolf? ( i also think this should be in OP)

#44 Kulasti

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 04:03 AM

So, been messing around on a target dummy for the hell of it. I think you can kind of cobble together a simple rotation that seems to work most of the time.

What I've been doing is basically this: Following your initial unload, spam Steady Shot until Chimera comes back up, then dump all remaining focus into Arcane Shot, then repeat. Toss in Master Marksman procs where ever they fall, unless that happens to be at the same time as Chimera.

I think with CS glyphed and something like 13% Haste, the only time I can focus-cap myself is during Rapid Fire or sub-20%. I'll get close from time to time when I try to really cut down the fat (hitting SS when I've got 20 focus instead of waiting half a second for ArcS), but I won't actually cap under normal circumstances.

It all falls together very nicely, I think. Keeps ISS up most of the time (I'm having trouble monitoring it, but I think it's up most of the time), never delays your CS and I think you'll get just as many ArcS's as if you tried to use them as soon as you had the focus.

As for Rapid Fire/Termination time, I'd guess your best bet would be to drop...every third SS for an ArcS. Still keeps ISS up and lets you use that extra focus. If they both come at once, it's going to get very very weird. At that point I'd be generating about 23-24 Focus per second with SS, 8-9 without; so in just keeping ISS up you'd generate enough Focus for two ArcSs with a third on the way in another quarter second. It's a little nuts.

#45 Whitefyst

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:02 AM

Okay, I finally had the time to analysis the CS glyph while waiting for WoW to update.

For the sake of this illustration, I made the following assumptions:
- 20% haste from gear and Pathing
- ISS maintained by 2 SS pairs for another 15% attack speed buff (35% hasted attacks)
- 3/3 Efficiency
- Started analysis arbitrarily at 100 focus
- Factoring in MM procs by having it occur after every 8 SSs - so after every 2 rotations
- Not accounting for latency or human reaction time since that varies from case to case. This can be countered by additional haste.

With the following being true:
- 5 focus per second regen approximately
- 1.5s SS cast with ISS buff
- Net CS focus use is 39
- Net ArS focus use is 17
- 1.5 SS cast focus gain 16.5 (9 + 7.5 focus regen)

With the CS glyph and the 1.5s SS cast time, you get a consistent and tight 9s rotation of:

CS-ArS-SSx2-ArS-SSx2

This cycle loses 7 focus per cycle; however, every other cycle has an MMM proc, which saves 17 focus since cast a free AiS instead of ArS. Thus, you end up wasting about 10 focus every 2 cycles. Although wasting focus is not ideal, its not bad in this case since:
1) You are able to do everything you want in the standard cycle
2) To use that extra focus with another ArS would not only cause the rotation to become focus negative but also would lose ISS uptime, which is a DPS loss

In 90s, the CS glyph rotation does the following 70 shots:
CS 10
AI 4
AS 16
SS 40

When under RF with RR, I believe that with the reports I have previously seen of the RF haste providing focus regen that you can use all of the extra GCDs in ArS. Even f we end up only getting the 4 focus per second from RR, then that is still an extra 36 focus per cycle meaning that we can still support using all extra GCDs on ArS. The same is true when using a Potion of Speed.

When under the effects of Bloodlust, then every other extra GCD will need to alternate between a ArS and a SS.

I then worked out 2 versions of non-CS glyph rotations.

Since the "optimal" non-CS glyph rotation of

CS-ArS-SSx2-ArSx2-SSx2

is focus negative, you cannot repeat that rotation every cycle. Instead, you have to do a focus regain cycle periodically that replaces the 3rd ArS with an SS, like

CS-ArS-SSx2-ArS-SSx3

The problem though with the extra SS in the focus regain cycle is that its cast time is 0.5s greater than the GCD and pushes back your CS casts by 0.5s every time you do a focus regain cycle.

The first non-CS glyph cycle I tried alternated the "optimal" rotation and focus regain rotation every other cycle. Some notes on this cycle are:
- CS slipped 0.5s every 2 cycles (about 20s)
- We are now doing 9 SSs every 2 cycles instead of 8, but I still used the MMM proc in the same consistent place since I need to do that 9th SS for focus regen. Thus, 1 SS cast is wasted every 2 cycles towards an MMM proc.
- This scheme wastes a little bit of focus but less than the CS rotation

This rotation did the following 71 shots in 90s (change from CS glyph rotation):
CS 9 (-1)
AI 4
AS 19 (3)
SS 39 (-1)

Thus, this rotation did one extra shot over 90s with giving up a CS and an SS for 3 ArS. Hence, I believe that this rotation would win out of the CS glyph rotation since this rotation is probably more DPS just on the shot differences, but then when you add in the fact that you can use a different glyph (like either the SS or ArS one depending on which is currently not being used), I would think that this one would definitely win out.

The only benefits compared to this rotation that I see with the CS rotation are that the CS rotation is more consistent and provides a little more healing from CS.

The second non-CS glyph rotation I evaluated was one that did over a 3 cycles did two optimal rotations then one focus regen rotation. The benefit of this rotation is that your CS cast only slips 0.5s about every 30s instead of 20s.

This rotation did the following 71 shots in 90s (change from CS glyph rotation):
CS 9 (-1)
AI 4
AS 20 (4)
SS 38 (-2)

This is a little more DPS than the previous rotation since it trades off 1 SS for a ArS, but the benefit is minor in that it occurs over 90s. I prefer the previous rotation since this one sinks very low in focus (close to zero) before the the focus regen cycle. Furthermore, with this schema, it is still a slightly focus negative cycle and looks that it would end up scrapping 0 focus in the next couple cycles after 60s. Periodically casting a Widow Venom instead of ArS every 30s may be enough to make up for it though.

In summary, the CS glyph rotation is a pretty decent choice, but I do not think that it is optimal. I believe that using a different glyphs (I prefer KS, SS, and ArS) and rotating the optimal and focus regain 10s CS cycles is better DPS-wise.

#46 Missdirected

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:04 AM

Regarding professions,
Engineering enchants are stacking with normal enchants. Here in this screen shot you can see, i have precision enchant and hyper speed accelerator from engineering. Its same with cloak, helmet and boot enchants. However, blizzard have removed crit rating component of nitro boots. Link to screen shot is here
http://img138.images...01310134904.jpg
Now, in my opinion, engineering with JC is the best option. Why? Well, you can have 240haste per min + precision enchant on gloves, nitro boots + icewalker on boots, 23 haste rating + 22 agility on cloak, and 45stam + normal ebon blade enchant on helmet. The combination of these enchants is clearly way better than having 40 agility from BS.
Sorry for bad english.

#47 sunsmoon

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:30 AM

It's worth noting that a lot of ranged weapons seem to be bugged, either under itemized or over itemized. For example, Heroic Stakethrower has 4 less DPS, 19 less agility, 10 less haste, and 5 less crit compared to Heroic Fal'inrush. Heroic Windrunner's Heartseeker has roughly 20 DPS more than Heroic Fal'inrush. This was reported in the PTR and wasn't fixed (it doesn't seem to be an issue in the Beta).

Can anyone see if the stats on Stakethrower, Death's Head Crossbow/Talonstrike, Windrunner's Heartseeker, and any other "overitemized" ranged weapons are correct, or if it's just a display error?

#48 Kevinally

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:18 AM

Minor corrections, feel free to delete this post after you've seen it.

It isn't avaible on gear, there is no Mastery gems or enchants, reofrging is the only way to get points in this stat.


The only shots affected by haste are autoshot and Steady shot), plus it increases our haste regeneration.


I assume you mean "reforging" and "focus".

#49 Midnight

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:52 AM

You would want to round up the hit rating part instead of the hit % part. Up until now, pet's hit rating will get rounded down to the nearest integer, meaning that even if the hunter has 7.999% repeating hit chance, the pet will only inherit 7% hit. Now whether they have fixed this issue or not for the patch I am not sure but 247 rating instead of 246 (for non-draenei) seems like a safer bet.


The question is: how far does WoW calculate internally? If 7,9 repeating is rounded up internally before deriving the pet hit from it everything is fine, if it doesn´t the pet only gets 7%. Unfortunatly I can´t find any lvl 83 target dummies on beta to test the theory. With 246 hit rating the tooltip tells me 8,00% hit and 0,00% chance to miss level 83.
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#50 NeonKnight

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:38 AM

I could not disagree more with the current tread in taking both "go for the throat" and "sic 'em" talents. Your pet does about 8-10% of your damage and doesn't really have focus issues. Why waste 5 points giving it more focus regeneration at the cost of doing more damage yourself? I skipped both of these talents entirely. Neither I nor my pet are having any issues with generating focus. I also see absolutely not point in wasting a point on Silencing shot because I have never used it. As a damage dealer my job is to do damage. Why should I spend a point on an ability that doesn't contribute to increasing my damage? Finally, everyone seems to waste those 2 survival points on ranged haste. I don't see why - it' doesn't benefit us that much. I spent them on the extra damage from serpent sting instead. Does the haste translate to higher dps than the additional SS damage does?

As a marksmanship hunter I first changed my gear so that I had a 4-piece sanctified t10 set, hoping the set bonus would offset some of the damage loss from arpen. Next, I re-gemmed all agility gems. I also reforged haste into the mastery stat which is around 25%. I still have about 15% haste. I now have about 58% critical strike rating and nearly 6k AP. With the patch live there seem to be a few minor issues, like my weapon enchant not showing up, which may affect dps a bit.

Premilinary testing on target dummies has shown a maximum of 6.5k dps using the standard priority of Kill, Chimera, Instant Aimed when it procs, steady and arcane as a focus dump. So far I have had absolutely no issues with keeping my focus up.

It looks like I am going to have to get rid of Needle Encrusted Scorpion in favor of Herkumi War Token, since the NES proc is not really all that useful. My other trinket is WFS, still trying to get DBW but I have never seen it drop, not even once. I'm sure I will need some fine tuning, as will most of us.

#51 Nooska

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:04 PM

I could not disagree more with the current tread in taking both "go for the throat" and "sic 'em" talents. Your pet does about 8-10% of your damage and doesn't really have focus issues. Why waste 5 points giving it more focus regeneration at the cost of doing more damage yourself? I skipped both of these talents entirely. Neither I nor my pet are having any issues with generating focus. I also see absolutely not point in wasting a point on Silencing shot because I have never used it. As a damage dealer my job is to do damage. Why should I spend a point on an ability that doesn't contribute to increasing my damage? Finally, everyone seems to waste those 2 survival points on ranged haste. I don't see why - it' doesn't benefit us that much. I spent them on the extra damage from serpent sting instead. Does the haste translate to higher dps than the additional SS damage does?

As a marksmanship hunter I first changed my gear so that I had a 4-piece sanctified t10 set, hoping the set bonus would offset some of the damage loss from arpen. Next, I re-gemmed all agility gems. I also reforged haste into the mastery stat which is around 25%. I still have about 15% haste. I now have about 58% critical strike rating and nearly 6k AP. With the patch live there seem to be a few minor issues, like my weapon enchant not showing up, which may affect dps a bit.

Premilinary testing on target dummies has shown a maximum of 6.5k dps using the standard priority of Kill, Chimera, Instant Aimed when it procs, steady and arcane as a focus dump. So far I have had absolutely no issues with keeping my focus up.

It looks like I am going to have to get rid of Needle Encrusted Scorpion in favor of Herkumi War Token, since the NES proc is not really all that useful. My other trinket is WFS, still trying to get DBW but I have never seen it drop, not even once. I'm sure I will need some fine tuning, as will most of us.


WIth teh scaling changes to pets your pet should not be doing 8-10% of your damage but more about 20% of your damage. Pet focus is interesting because of Wild Hunt pet talent, however I tend to agree with Sic'Em at level 80, GftT should be enough to havethe focus needed at any time (the pet spends 25 focus every 3 seconds, with 1 point in Wild Hunt it will spend 37,5 focus every 3 seconds, so you need to generate 13 focus per second for the pet. GftT gives 10 focus per critical autos, this ups the value of haste which you have gotten rid of. Haste is a nice stat for MM, and better than mastery at level 80 according to the more indepth testing thats been done on the beta (Adyssa or Adirelle - I keep mixing it up, both are "Adxxxxxx" in my recollection of posts - did this testing iirc) SV and BM will be reforging to mastery, but MM should go for crit or haste (or hit to gem for agility).

#52 Ratek

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:10 PM

I could not disagree more with the current tread in taking both "go for the throat" and "sic 'em" talents. Your pet does about 8-10% of your damage and doesn't really have focus issues. Why waste 5 points giving it more focus regeneration at the cost of doing more damage yourself? I skipped both of these talents entirely. Neither I nor my pet are having any issues with generating focus. I also see absolutely not point in wasting a point on Silencing shot because I have never used it. As a damage dealer my job is to do damage. Why should I spend a point on an ability that doesn't contribute to increasing my damage? Finally, everyone seems to waste those 2 survival points on ranged haste. I don't see why - it' doesn't benefit us that much. I spent them on the extra damage from serpent sting instead. Does the haste translate to higher dps than the additional SS damage does?


Ok, that's a lot of stuff.
If you don't grab GftT you have to take Rapid Killing, while an ok talent fro AoE, solo or if you are a designated killer of adds, it doesnt' actually do very much on bosses. It's rate of usefulness is incredibly low. GftT might not be the ultimate talent in MM like it used to be (or close to it), but it's use is indeed higher than RK. Next, to avoid Sic' Em you have to grab boh points in Careful Aim, I'm not going to argue that one too much since it is a clear DPS value (personally I just think it isn't very great). However, since you refuse to grab Silencing Shot you are now forced to take Concussive Barrage. Like Rapid Killing it's value is incredibly low. Solo and PvP will be great, but applying a Daze to a mob on it's way to the tank can piss people off, cause deaths and be a general pain. I strongly suggest you do not take this talent. It is 100% not for a raider.
You are better off getting GftT and Sic' Em due to Wild Hunt, what might look like alright focus for the pet without, will be hard pressured when Wild Hunt kicks in, and it is a good DPS talent for the pet, you could just as well support it. It is 5 expensive points, points most of us would likely have spent elsewhere if we could, however everything in talent trees is weighed up against it's competition, and in this case there is little of it.

Regarding Silencing Shot. Your role is DPS, but as a raider it is your job to do what you can to help the raid, no matter your role. It is incredibly shortsighted to stand back and play the "it's isn't my job" card. Imagine every DPS doing that... Only tanks would do it. But if they don't tank it, or it is at range, what then? Silencing Shot is a valuable utility, when it is needed it will be way better than it's competition. And that is why you take it, not because it is useful all the time. If everyone only grabbed talents they had use of all the time, you can be sure that raids would fall apart as soon a slightly unorthodox boss appeared.

Regarding Pathing vs Improved Serpent Sting. I assume you intend to reapply your sting instead of using Chimera Shot? You will only get the value of the talent once if you use Chiemra Shot! Hence, Pathing is not a choice, it is a requirement. In your case I say a requirement since you obviously don't want to take BD, and OwN is not very imperessive and Imp KC is really bad for MM.

#53 Nebelwerfer

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:35 PM

Regarding Silencing Shot. Your role is DPS, but as a raider it is your job to do what you can to help the raid, no matter your role. It is incredibly shortsighted to stand back and play the "it's isn't my job" card. Imagine every DPS doing that... Only tanks would do it. But if they don't tank it, or it is at range, what then? Silencing Shot is a valuable utility, when it is needed it will be way better than it's competition. And that is why you take it, not because it is useful all the time. If everyone only grabbed talents they had use of all the time, you can be sure that raids would fall apart as soon a slightly unorthodox boss appeared.


I appreciate it's utility, but the occasions when your interrupt - complete with it's travel time - will be the first to land upon the boss will be extremely few and far between, and directly as a result of someone failing to perform their role when needed. There isn't much of a convincing argument for taking it ahead of dps increasing talents - particularly when it appears to be a spec that is already sitting behind survival at the moment.

#54 Ratek

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:56 PM

The interrupt/silence effect has been instant for a long while. It was only the damage portion that took time to hit the target. Now that is gone. Might still have a visual effect of travel.

#55 Nebelwerfer

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:59 PM

The interrupt/silence effect has been instant for a long while. It was only the damage portion that took time to hit the target. Now that is gone. Might still have a visual effect of travel.


Log from last week disagrees:

[19:47:39.975] Player casts Silencing Shot on Cult Fanatic
[19:47:40.147] Cult Fanatic afflicted by Silencing Shot from Player
[19:47:40.147] Player Silencing Shot Cult Fanatic 2157

#56 Ratek

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:02 PM

Log from last week disagrees:

[19:47:39.975] Player casts Silencing Shot on Cult Fanatic
[19:47:40.147] Cult Fanatic afflicted by Silencing Shot from Player
[19:47:40.147] Player Silencing Shot Cult Fanatic 2157


Interesting. I'm quite certain that it did arrive instantly, and that there was even a blue post about it some time ago. Well, that does indeed weaken Silencing Shot a great deal. Should be commented on on the beta forums, talented and traveltime that's expensive.

#57 sunsmoon

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:54 PM

Two snips from a combat Log against the training dummy behind the Battlemasters in Org:

Back against the building:
10/13 08:48:43.427 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS "Amielle" "Heroic Training Dummy" "Silencing Shot"
10/13 08:48:43.567 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED "Amielle" "Heroic Training Dummy" "Silencing Shot" DEBUFF

Max range:
10/13 08:51:24.458 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS "Amielle" "Heroic Training Dummy" "Silencing Shot"
10/13 08:51:25.114 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED "Amielle" "Heroic Training Dummy" "Silencing Shot" DEBUFF

Confirming that there seems to be a travel time again.

#58 Whitefyst

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:16 PM

I could not disagree more with the current tread in taking both "go for the throat" and "sic 'em" talents. Your pet does about 8-10% of your damage and doesn't really have focus issues. Why waste 5 points giving it more focus regeneration at the cost of doing more damage yourself? I skipped both of these talents entirely. Neither I nor my pet are having any issues with generating focus. I also see absolutely not point in wasting a point on Silencing shot because I have never used it. As a damage dealer my job is to do damage. Why should I spend a point on an ability that doesn't contribute to increasing my damage? Finally, everyone seems to waste those 2 survival points on ranged haste. I don't see why - it' doesn't benefit us that much. I spent them on the extra damage from serpent sting instead. Does the haste translate to higher dps than the additional SS damage does?

As a marksmanship hunter I first changed my gear so that I had a 4-piece sanctified t10 set, hoping the set bonus would offset some of the damage loss from arpen. Next, I re-gemmed all agility gems. I also reforged haste into the mastery stat which is around 25%. I still have about 15% haste. I now have about 58% critical strike rating and nearly 6k AP. With the patch live there seem to be a few minor issues, like my weapon enchant not showing up, which may affect dps a bit.

Premilinary testing on target dummies has shown a maximum of 6.5k dps using the standard priority of Kill, Chimera, Instant Aimed when it procs, steady and arcane as a focus dump. So far I have had absolutely no issues with keeping my focus up.

It looks like I am going to have to get rid of Needle Encrusted Scorpion in favor of Herkumi War Token, since the NES proc is not really all that useful. My other trinket is WFS, still trying to get DBW but I have never seen it drop, not even once. I'm sure I will need some fine tuning, as will most of us.


I can understand not taking full points in Sic'Em, but passing on GftT is a definite DPS loss, while on the other hand the 2 in Rapid Killing is not much of a benefit at all in most cases. Points in GftT will definitely result in more damage then RK.

I am sorry but I have to take exception to your limited view that as a damage dealer that your job is just to do damage. If everyone that had point of view, then raids would often not have enough people to do interrupts, CC, etc. True, your job is to do damage, but it is also to use the utility that your class/spec offers to the benefit of the raid. Using SilS is free. You can just macro it into every shot since it neither costs focus or a GCD so that it is used every time off CD. In most cases when not asked to use it as an interrupt, you can just take the autocasts from the macro and silence the caster target you are on improving raid survivability. Instead, you take CB, which does not do damage either, which seems against your philosophy. I would rather put one of those points in SilS to benefit my raid.

And haste is important for MM hunters now. You get focus regen from it. It increases your autoshot rate taking advantage of MMs 15% autoshot bonus damage and our mastery. It also reduces SS cast time, so that with the addition of sufficient haste on gear, we can squeeze in additional shots in our cycle. On the other hand ISrS is only beneficial on the initial cast of SrS. It provides no benefit when SrS is refreshed by CS.

#59 Namarus

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 04:56 PM

After messing around with MM last night I can't help but think that Piercing Shots is over rated. Currently at any points where you have Chimera on cooldown and have excess focus you will use arcane or maybe kill command. Which do not benefit from Piercing Shots at all.

Generally this happens when heroism, haste pots or even rapid fire, where literally I have been spamming out Arcane Shot as fast as I can because focus regen is kind of crazy at that point. However, with no benefit from Piercing Shots I wonder as teh the value of this strategy.

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 05:03 PM

It's worth noting that a lot of ranged weapons seem to be bugged, either under itemized or over itemized. For example, Heroic Stakethrower has 4 less DPS, 19 less agility, 10 less haste, and 5 less crit compared to Heroic Fal'inrush. Heroic Windrunner's Heartseeker has roughly 20 DPS more than Heroic Fal'inrush. This was reported in the PTR and wasn't fixed (it doesn't seem to be an issue in the Beta).

Can anyone see if the stats on Stakethrower, Death's Head Crossbow/Talonstrike, Windrunner's Heartseeker, and any other "overitemized" ranged weapons are correct, or if it's just a display error?


I'm doing a quick, crude test as I need to be out the door in a bit, but it looks like it might still be bugged. 100 shots on the heroic training dummy, no pet out, all items removed that have any kind of procs, no set bonuses.

Posted Image
Heartseeker seems to be outperforming Heroic Njordnar, likewise with Death's Head vs regular Njordnar. Need to have been out the door 5 minutes ago, but I'll fiddle with it more later.




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