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Arcane in Cataclysm: Updated for 4.01


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#21 Mentalfloss

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:51 PM

I don't think spirit is contributing to this. Mage armor no longer allows a % of in combat regen, but gives you % of maximum mana.


nope, spirit does not do anything for pure dps-casters. it is all mage armor. So replacing all spirit as soon as possible is way to go.


If you mouse over spirit in the character sheet it still shows MP5 gained from spirit and in practice there is a constant flow in mana regen aside from your mage armor tick every 5 seconds. I'm pretty sure spirit is doing something because there's no way I'd be seeing the regen I am with just 3.6% of my max mana returned.

The mana is coming from somewhere, and it matches very closely to the spirit tool tip. Is that tool tip wrong? If so, where is the constant influx of mana coming from when mage armor is off? I'm seeing about 390 MP5.

#22 Kavan

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:15 PM

The in combat mana regen is there, but it is not based on spirit. We just have a relatively high base regen while before all regen was based on spirit with no base regen.

Also anecdotally regarding gear based on Rawr optimization I found best to only use 2 purples for meta, others straight int regardless of socket bonuses. For reforging I mostly reforged first from spirit, then crit and lastly from haste, target being either mastery or hit.

#23 sbao

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:05 PM

Thoughts on using molten armor during initial burn phase for MoE proc + simply more damage then switching over to mage armor? It's also a cheap major glyph that can replace mirror images which is pretty much cosmetic from what I hear.

I just think raids should utilise the extreme overpowered-ness of mages right now and roflstomp w/ 15 mages through icc25 HMs. I was doing 80k+ AB4 crits with all CDs popped(on Sartharion w/o optimal buffs and 30% icc buff) Only issue was not being able to cast fast enough (no IV) without a co-ordinated lust.

Side note: I'm also using improved invis for no downtime at the end of my mirror images. Macro: /cast invisibility, /cancelaura invisibility.

Imagine 15 mages doing 40k dps in ICC during the 1st 30 seconds! /drool
And no threat issues unlike most casters! Glorious.

#24 Sandarj

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:06 AM

Thoughts on using molten armor during initial burn phase for MoE proc + simply more damage then switching over to mage armor? It's also a cheap major glyph that can replace mirror images which is pretty much cosmetic from what I hear.


I had this thought as well; will post results after tonight's raid (ICC25).

#25 lrdcollins

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:17 AM

So I have yet to raid this week, because my guild is qqing but I have some questions about rotation in a raid base environment. As far as our burn phases to sustained phasing goes, after our initial burn phase how long do we wait until we burn again. With evocation being 30 seconds longer of a CD do we wait to pop AP when the CD reaches 15 seconds to time it with evo, or is the mana we are returning in a raid situation enough to allow us to burn through as soon as PoM and AP are back up, then evocate once it is available again. Now on top of this we have the mana gem which is sharing the same CD timer as evo, and is used in the inital burn phase after AP and PoM has already been popped, so this once again leads me to ask, to we just simply sit on PoM and AP for 30 seconds to wait for the SP buff from the gem, and the evocate that is available.

#26 Logix

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:04 AM

Some key rules of thumb concerning the "Burn" phase
There are a few factors you will want to consider when thinking about "When should my next burn be?" or "What cooldowns should I wait for before I burn again?". These are:

How long is my "burn" phase
The time it takes for you to burn from 100% to ~40% mana will dictate whether you should start burning as soon as Mana Gem comes off of cooldown vs. waiting out for evocation to get closer to coming off of cooldown. A decently geared 80 mage should not have an issue starting his next burn as soon as Mana Gem is available, since, due to the warped stats and mana cost ratios, his burn phase will last a considerable amount of time.
This will not be the case at 85, where you will have to more closely manage the your evocation cooldown, and time the ending of your burn phase to precisely the moment evocation comes off of cooldown.
At which moments during the fight can I safely Evocate without interruption
This is probably the single most important factor when deciding when to burn. It is imperative that your "regen" phase executes successfully. Due to this, it is completely acceptable holding off on a burn phase while you wait for a moment in time where you know "X seconds from now, I will be able to successfully evocate" (where X = how long your burn phase takes).
Barring 'special' cases, you will want to start your 'burn' phase with Mana Gem
The only times you should not wait for MG to come off cooldown to start a burn phase is if the fight will end very soon and/or some fight specific mechanic's timing can justify it (e.g. a boss is vulnerable every 1.5 mins and the timings just don't sync up). In all other cases, using mana gem is your trigger to start the burn phase (AP will be available by default).
The Arcane Mage's burn phase contains a considerable portion of Arcane's overall damage. It is as critical to successfully pull it off as it is for, say, a Fire mage to ensure LBs uptime, or a Frost mage to ensure he is maximizing the use of his FoF procs. Due to this, the other two phases are just as critical since all three phases are inexorably linked together (one phase's failure will cascade into the next phase, which then starts a chain reaction).

As a general rule of thumb for Arcane, you do not want to be in the position where you are casting for a significant portion of time at low mana (i.e. you never want to be at a low mana % trying to wait out evocations cooldown). The critical aspect of this rule that you must consider, is that a failure in any one of your three phases can lead to this undesirable situation.

#27 lrdcollins

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:34 AM

Thats what I was thinking, was just curious for people that were raiding already. The other thing we can do is giver our Focus magic to a druid now in exchange for an innervate (because we know that is what they really want), allowing an immediate burn phase as soon as AP come back up. Now this would leave out the MG on one of these phases, but it would allow us an extra burn phase most likely during the encounter.

#28 Venthos

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:37 AM

With regards to phases being disrupted, how does AoE play into this? With AoE being more expensive, will we just have to use single target so we don't burn our Mana Adept?

If it isn't too disruptive for our cycle, what will we actually use? Does Arcane Specialization outweigh the fact that AE is very mana inefficient (burning mana even faster with the talent), as well as the lower coefficient compared to Blizzard and Flamestrike (even the dot portion)? How much would AC and MoE affect the choice?

#29 Anatneyi

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:57 AM

If you mouse over spirit in the character sheet it still shows MP5 gained from spirit and in practice there is a constant flow in mana regen aside from your mage armor tick every 5 seconds. I'm pretty sure spirit is doing something because there's no way I'd be seeing the regen I am with just 3.6% of my max mana returned.

The mana is coming from somewhere, and it matches very closely to the spirit tool tip. Is that tool tip wrong? If so, where is the constant influx of mana coming from when mage armor is off? I'm seeing about 390 MP5.


Mana regen (as it is listed on the character sheet) is based on spirit, however, mana regen in combat (listed as combat regen) is not. I reforged spirit off of my gear into mastery, and my mana regen went down but combat regen did not.

#30 TyrianeKdV

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 11:41 AM

With regards to phases being disrupted, how does AoE play into this? With AoE being more expensive, will we just have to use single target so we don't burn our Mana Adept?

If it isn't too disruptive for our cycle, what will we actually use? Does Arcane Specialization outweigh the fact that AE is very mana inefficient (burning mana even faster with the talent), as well as the lower coefficient compared to Blizzard and Flamestrike (even the dot portion)? How much would AC and MoE affect the choice?


Currently, Arcane Explosion can proc Arcane Concentration from each target it hits, which results in a very high clearcast uptime, more crits and very low mana consumption when hitting many targets.

#31 eselwald

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:13 PM

Hey,

a little question.
which trinkt is your favorite for arkan
Muradin's Spyglass reforgeed to Haste or
Reign of the Unliving

Reign of the Unliving gievs 2k Mana Crit and SP

i testing the two trinkets @ the dummy and i not differnt the max dps.

#32 Ocrist

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:10 PM

As the burn phase is such a massive part of our damage output, getting a good clicky trinket instead of an "on hit" trinket (as are all (?) ICC trinkets) seems to me to be extremely important. One trinket that has shot up in value for the couple of months between 4.0 and Cata, if you're looking for a clicky trinket as arcane seems to me to be . A sackfull of Int and the clicky control to go with your CDs.

#33 Gilthanor

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:01 PM

If/when they nerf arcane, I suspect arcane blast is going to be the target. Even if mana costs were higher and AB4 spam hurt us more than it does now (which should be the case in Cata), I just can't imagine that even fully stacked AB with cooldowns is supposed to crit for twice as much as Deep Freeze.

I still hope that arcane gets fleshed out in a future content patch, because even while it's doing obscene amounts of damage, I'm not enjoying the gameplay. Any given encounter consists of doing your bland single target rotation (which is only slightly more engaging than my TBC Destro Warlock) or standing near the tank and spamming AE. While I hope.arcane is competitive at level 85, I find myself hoping its never a clear #1 on single target dps that would force me to play what I consider to be the least engaging spec.

#34 Ognarr

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:22 PM

hey hey i found somy glyph inconsistencies;

you say that arcane missiles glyph is Prime- it is not its Major

#35 lrdcollins

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:27 PM

As the burn phase is such a massive part of our damage output, getting a good clicky trinket instead of an "on hit" trinket (as are all (?) ICC trinkets) seems to me to be extremely important. One trinket that has shot up in value for the couple of months between 4.0 and Cata, if you're looking for a clicky trinket as arcane seems to me to be . A sackfull of Int and the clicky control to go with your CDs.


Actually as soon as the int changes took place I was immediately thinking about that trinket. Im currently rocking DFL and Muradin's, Im wondering if the int to SP and the extra burst will beat mura out in the course of an entire fight. That loss of crit however and the sustained sp numbers may not. Now if what i read is correct (someone please edit if it isnt) Int is scaling at basically a 1:1 ratio with SP and a 1:0.005 with crit. So from the SP side your going from 180 sustained dps with Muradins to 128 with resurgance, but are getting the extra bust for our burn cycle. I would be curious to see how this from a SP side alone scales during the course of an entire fight. The big loss, however is obviously the crit. I may try our resurg tonight to test numbers versus mura, I'm just curious if it surpasses it with the changes.

#36 mdsandler

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:49 PM

hey hey i found somy glyph inconsistencies;

you say that arcane missiles glyph is Prime- it is not its Major

This is currently a bug. It is going to be fixed.

Unfortunately, no—but thank you for bringing this up. For those reading along, the following mage glyphs in 4.0.1 are incorrectly classified as Major glyphs instead of Prime glyphs and, as a result, cannot be slotted at this time:


Glyph of Arcane Barrage
Glyph of Molten Armor
Glyph of Frostbolt
Glyph of Arcane Missiles
Glyph of Frostfire Bolt
Glyph of Fireball


While this issue cannot be hotfixed, we understand the impact it will have on players and so are searching for means by which to address the matter as quickly as possible. It's definitely a priority for us. (Source)



#37 chaase

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 05:36 PM

Actually as soon as the int changes took place I was immediately thinking about that trinket. Im currently rocking DFL and Muradin's, Im wondering if the int to SP and the extra burst will beat mura out in the course of an entire fight. That loss of crit however and the sustained sp numbers may not. Now if what i read is correct (someone please edit if it isnt) Int is scaling at basically a 1:1 ratio with SP and a 1:0.005 with crit. So from the SP side your going from 180 sustained dps with Muradins to 128 with resurgance, but are getting the extra bust for our burn cycle. I would be curious to see how this from a SP side alone scales during the course of an entire fight. The big loss, however is obviously the crit. I may try our resurg tonight to test numbers versus mura, I'm just curious if it surpasses it with the changes.


I am going to do some testing tonight on the Talisman of Resurgence. I am currently using Maghia's Quill to get me back to hit cap and Reign of the Dead. I am wondering if having the extra 599 spell power for the burn phase will work out to better DPS than the proc on Reign of the Dead.

Right now...I miss rawr.

#38 Atraxos

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 06:20 PM

I would imagine, post-4.0.1, at least a few players will be establishing Trial of the Crusader groups just to have another shot at Reign of the Unliving/Dead. To stick to the topic at hand, (do bear in mind this is anecdotal observation), I'm finding I get better results from Flamestrike-Arcane Explosion (with the talent 2/2) on Frozen Halls trash than Flamestrike/Blizzard. Assuming the mana consumption from either of these is roughly equal, which I'm not yet sure is the case, it might simply boil down to playstyle/personal preference or perhaps using Flamestrike/Blizz on a pull where you risk cleaves or other PBAoE by standing too closely.

On a personal-preference note, though, I wait to begin the first "burn phase" (on a single-target boss or raid encounter) until I've consumed approximately enough mana that the use of a mana gem as part of the "burn" cooldowns puts me back at 97%-100%.

#39 zebedar

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:39 PM

Ghostcrawler On Patch 4.0.1 Class Hotfixes - World of Warcraft News - Curse

Initial adjustment/nerfbat applied. Mage and frost touched, but not as much as Fire. I imagine AB was the primary issue - interesting to see how this affects the burn duration/crit numbers.

#40 Katatonia

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 08:11 PM

The other thing we can do is giver our Focus magic to a druid now in exchange for an innervate (because we know that is what they really want)


Not likely to happen. I assume you mainly are referring to moonkins, but they don't care so much about crit anymore as it doesn't help them with mana--and the new version of Dreamstate greatly rewards them to use Innervate on themselves. It's a skippable talent at 80, but you can bet they'll all take it for a good long time into Cataclysm before gear might make it optional again. And I just don't see restos giving Innervate away either, except maybe to another healer at 85.


Regarding AE, are people really finding that it's worth using at all unless there's like 6+ targets? Just having all dps focus fire one mob after another seems a lot faster with the new mechanics. Course, that's just anecdotal and based on dps from before the first round of rebalancing.




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