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4.0 Pre-Cataclysm Raiding


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#241 pfooti

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 05:35 PM

That's sort of a simcraft scaling factor question for your particular setup. Keep in mind that a lot of the benefit you'd gain from moving a few spellpower around would likely get lost in the statistical noise anyway.

Another option (one I'm partial to) is reforging for Mastery. If you keep filling your sockets with correct colors, you can reforge your over-cap stats into Mastery, which is often a decent stat as well, giving you the benefits of the socket bonus without the drawbacks. Of course, if (socket bonus + reforged mastery) < (10 int) then that's not a good choice.
http://www.castrandom.com - we're not sure what it's about either.

#242 Bahlshaab

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 09:33 PM

For versus in a yellow socket, if I'm not missing Int multipliers (5% raid buff accounted for) the scale factors from the SimC OP give:

[table]|DPS from Gems|||Min SP Socket Bonus Required
|Ruby|Ametrine|
Affl|92.5848|77.0004||4.8793 --> 5
Affl_Drain|93.2358|76.4929||5.1293 --> 7
Demo|80.5602|65.4491||5.9799 --> 7
Destro|97.3938|63.1779||10.7584 --> n/a[/table]

For this case, keeping the socket bonuses and reforging haste for mastery looks like a straight win for Affl_Drain spec (which has a fairly high scale factor for Mastery) but is dependent on the magnitude of socket bonuses for the other specs.

This is, of course, if your profile matches closely the applicable SimC profile.

#243 SoterioN

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 11:42 PM

I'm sorry if I missed this - did simulations confirm that Glyph of Imp > Glyph of Incin for Destruction spec?

#244 Jmickey

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 07:34 AM

Did some calculating for haste needed to make Dark Arts points optional due to the imp gcd bug.

Haste rating needed for 1.5 sec firebolt with Mind Quickening
[TABLE]Haste rating|Dark Arts points
1925|0
1405|1
885|2
364|3[/TABLE]

With the haste rating above along with the talent points in Dark Arts associated with it, the imp has the closest cast time to 1.5 as possible.


Was testing this today, and it seems to me like the Imp's GCD is now scaling with your haste? Seemed to be sitting at 1 sec (or less than the cast time of a 1.4 sec firebolt) for me since 4.0.1a.

Edit: I didn't do any extensive testing and didn't properly take into account my lag (300ms), So I'm probably wrong in my above assumption.

#245 angaroth

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 02:44 PM

For any claims as to pet/guardian cast times - can you please provide links to logs to verify the timings. Tooltips lie.

#246 Chthonios

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 05:40 PM

I'm not sure if any demonology macro tips have been posted, but ill give the ones I use, great for solo or dungeon/raid play

button 1 (press it 4 times at the start of a boss fight, refresh as needed. once or twice on solo crap. note how the shorter durations are at the front, given that hand of gul'dan can refresh immolate)
#showtooltip
/petattack
/castsequence reset=target/4 corruption, immolate, bane of doom, curse of the elements
/cast metamorphosis
/use 13
/use 14

button 2
if your destro talents include shadow bolt 'haste' talent, then just use 'Hand of Gul'dan'
if your destro talents are incinerate based then :- (press twice at the start or to refresh shadow bolt debuff, otherwise once)
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=4 hand of gul'dan, shadow bolt
/cast axe toss
/cast felstorm
/cast metamorphosis
/use 13
/use 14

button 3
Basically incinerate or shadow bolt, your filler. I'll show the incinerate macro to give you an idea
#showtooltip
/cast incinerate
/cast axe toss
/cast felstorm
/cast metamorphosis
/use 13
/use 14

button 4 (execute)
/cast soulburn
/cast soul fire
/cast axe toss
/cast felstorm
/cast metamorphosis
/use 13
/use 14

on button 5 you can happily bung Life Tap.

Hope thats of help to someone.

note that I also macro shadowflame an immo aura together, since i generally use them together, ie
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=10 shadowflame, immolation aura

Thus if metamorph is not up you just press it once, if meta is up, press it twice. easy peasy.

#247 matornot

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 09:12 PM

For any claims as to pet/guardian cast times - can you please provide links to logs to verify the timings. Tooltips lie.

Tooltips don't lie, people just misinterpret them. The imp's Firebolt can be shortened under 1.5 sec, but his GCD cannot. Unfortunately, there is no tooltip that accurately shows GCD if you're past the cap.

I can confirm that the Imp is still GCD locked at 1.5 sec, as is the Succy.

#248 Kyngston

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 05:12 AM

I'm not sure if any demonology macro tips have been posted, but ill give the ones I use, great for solo or dungeon/raid play


Folks trying to min/max their dps will never reach the full potential of their gear by using /castsequence macros. Your dots and cooldowns have different timers, meaning that after the opening rotation, your cast rotation will almost never match your /castsequence macro. In addition attaching Meta to your filler spells, disregards the opportunities to stack your Meta with procs, bloodlust or decimate.

It's fine for one-button, mindless casual play, but if you're reading these forums on theorycrafting data to squeeze every bit of dps from your gear, you should really avoid /castsequence macros.

In addition, the reset condition in your macros, do not work like how most people try to use it. The reset timer is from the last time you called the macro. It is not a timer from the start of the rotation. This means your cooldowns will not actually match your macro reset timer conditions. see MACRO castsequence - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft.

I think the only /castsequence macro I used when I was demo (3.3.5), was an aoe trash macro, that chained meta, charge, immolate. As destro, I don't have any /castsequence macros.

I do use macros like:
#showtooltip
/cast [nomod] Soulburn
/cast Soul Fire
Which allow me to cast a SB:SF when Soulburn is off CD, or just SF when my imp procs.

And generic multi-purpose filler macros like:
#showtooltip [mod] Chaos Bolt; Incinerate
/use 10
/cast [mod] Chaos Bolt; Incinerate
/cast [@pettarget,exists] Firebolt

But in general macros which attempt to auto-select your spell are going to lower your dps.

#249 vo1os

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:18 AM

"/cast [@pettarget,exists] Firebolt"
Seems to be useless.
Tested 10 min fight with dummy: clear fight and macros+autoclicker. Same amounts of firebolts both.
Conditions: I made a 1.6 sec firebolt cast.

Macros for preSB. Usable as SB button while combat and running. Usable as Harvest button as out of combat + standing:

#showtooltip Soulburn
/cast Soulburn
/cast Soul Harvest

#250 Warlocomotif

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 02:21 PM

Firebolt is 1 word, I tested it twice- the benefit seems minimal but I can push the cast interval back down to roughly 1.53s when constantly spamming the firebolt macro (and nothing else at all, full time spamming Firebolt). Where-as normally it's at about 1.6s. I'll try retest this tonight to be sure.
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#251 vo1os

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 05:50 PM

Firebolt is 1 word

Yeah, just copied from the post before mine. Macros has a notable animation on imp's FB. I'm testing on RU servers, so the macros differs a bit.

Tested once again:

1 try. Just the imp and the dummy, naked warlock 1 dark arts talent (tooltip shows 2.25 sec cast):
186(H)+50(M)+11©=247 firebolts cast
600sec/247=2.429 sec avg cast

2 try. With macros+autoclicker delay 300ms(3.33 hits/sec). Same parameters as 1 try:
192+41+15=248 firebolts cast
600sec/248=2.419 sec avg cast

+/- 1 cast error in calculations

Seems like same with/without macros ((
Ooooh and 2.429-2.25=0.179 cast delay is a huge loss. Sad.

#252 matornot

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 04:43 PM

1 try. Just the imp and the dummy, naked warlock 1 dark arts talent (tooltip shows 2.25 sec cast):
186(H)+50(M)+11©=247 firebolts cast
600sec/247=2.429 sec avg cast

2 try. With macros+autoclicker delay 300ms(3.33 hits/sec). Same parameters as 1 try:
192+41+15=248 firebolts cast
600sec/248=2.419 sec avg cast

Seems like same with/without macros ((
Ooooh and 2.429-2.25=0.179 cast delay is a huge loss. Sad.

Since your pets' spells can't be queued up like your own spells can, the effectiveness of the macro relies largely on the rapidity of your clicking. The macro will do nothing if your imp finishes a cast then starts casting again between two clicks of the macro. Your autoclicker leaves 0.3 sec between clicks, which isn't very helpful when your imp's pause is only 0.179 sec. i.e. the lower your latency, the more rapidly you must click to make the Firebolt macro effective. Personally, I spam my buttons about 4-5 times per second, and closer to 6-7 times per second when I really get aggressive, and I like to think (or hope) that most players spam at about 4-5 hits per second.

Here are my results from a few dummy fights:

Tooltip says 1.75 sec, 0/3 Dark Arts
[TABLE]|Fight Length|# of Casts|Cast+Pause|Pause Time
No Macro|194s|81|2.383s|0.633s
w/ Macro|193s|107|1.804s|0.054s[/TABLE]

Tooltip says 1.51 sec, 3/3 Dark Arts
[table]|Fight Length|# of Casts|Cast+Pause|Pause Time
No Macro|300s|187|1.600s|0.090s
w/ Macro|300s|190|1.579s|0.089s[/table]

Tooltip says 1.24 sec, 3/3 Dark Arts
[table]|Fight Length|# of Casts|Cast+Pause|Pause Time|Pause After GCD
No Macro|194s|122|1.590s|0.350s|0.090s
w/ Macro|193s|121|1.595s|0.355s|0.095s[/table]

The first table shows a huge gap when not spamming the macro, which works out to about 39% of the imp's potential DPS being lost to lag. The second table shows an imp just short of the GCD cap, and the third is well past the GCD cap. Curiously, the latter two imps don't seem to be very much affected by lag while the first one is devastated by it. Does anyone know why this might be? Something to do with Dark Arts perhaps?

#253 vo1os

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 12:27 PM

Tooltip says 1.75 sec, 0/3 Dark Arts
[TABLE]|Fight Length|# of Casts|Cast+Pause|Pause Time
No Macro|194s|81|2.383s|0.633s
w/ Macro|193s|107|1.804s|0.054s[/TABLE]


mistake in test?

#254 matornot

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 02:03 PM

mistake in test?

No, I tested more times but I didn't really want to make that post any bigger. A guildie of mine seems to think it has something to do with the imp's cast animation, where he wants to finish his little jump before starting his next cast, but then why does he cast just fine when his cast time is closer to 1.5? As I said, it could have something to do with Dark Arts, which shouldn't be an issue for any spec that uses the imp anyway. The main point of that post is that the macro does indeed make a difference, though less of a difference closer to 1.5 sec, depending on how fast you're spamming the macro.

#255 Redlock

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:18 PM

I've been meaning to test for the possibility that this discrepency is caused by the firebolt being in flight causing the imp to pause before the next cast. Having the imp "move to" melee range of the target might allow him to chain-cast a bit faster. I'll have time later this week to follow up.

#256 Anthropology

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 10:24 PM

A snapshot is taken of your current stats and applied to the guardian when summoned, this is used as the base for them. They also receive all buffs that are available when summoned, so this would include Heroism / Bloodlust if active.



So, if the guardian has been summoned after Bloodlust is used, it will still be applied? Also, which of the two guardians does the most dps? Does this differ between the specs?

#257 Warlocomotif

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 12:10 AM

Just wanted to drop a note here; I'm going to take a break from World of Warcraft fot a while. I'll probably be back, and it's not a matter of dissatisfaction with the game or anything like that; merely that I haven't felt like actually playing the game in about 2 months or so. Theorycrafting is still fun, and i'll probably keep checking EJ and some other wow related websites.

If anyone wants to update this guide or the old demonology guide, feel free.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.

#258 Eventuality

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 12:32 AM

So, if the guardian has been summoned after Bloodlust is used, it will still be applied? Also, which of the two guardians does the most dps? Does this differ between the specs?


Doomguard offers more DPS. Infernal is useful for the stun in AoE packs, though. As far as the Bloodlust, I'm not entirely sure. I've never seen mine benefit from it, at the very least.

#259 Jarflock

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 04:47 PM

Given that Imp Soul Fire has a 15 second cooldown matching its 15 second duration it seems that we should:

1. If possible due to the durations save Emp Imp procs till Imp SF is less than travel time from expiring.
2. Time hard cast SFs to begin during the expiring Imp SF buff but land after expiration.

My question is about number 2. I actually got better results from letting the buff expire if its end coincided with refreshing dots or conflaging and casting hardcast SFs only when I would be casting an incinerate. I am tentatively assuming this is accurate and reflects our priority list but was hoping someone with better math/theorycrafting skills could discuss it. I am particularly interested in the increased cast time from starting my hardcast after the haste buff has expired and how that fits into this calculation

#260 mmdollar

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 02:05 AM

Since the new strange patch, can anyone confirm that is better to put 2 points in to improve Bane of Doom rather than 2 points on Corruption.




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