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4.0 Pre-Cataclysm Raiding


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#21 Scabreux

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:06 AM

I wonder why you specc "Improved Howl of Terror" in the Affli-Tree and not e.g. Seed of Corruption which might be of bigger importance in certain raid situations (LK ghosts) or 2/2 SL.

#22 vo1os

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:13 AM

About clipping...
So for example we are destro, 0 haste. We're going to make last tick clip at 14. So the "new" immo is not standart 5-tick, it's a new 6 tick immo.
So the question is: will this affect the conflagrate ? Can anybody test, 'cause european servers will be up not soon (

And 1 more: Bane Of Doom has possibility to be upgraded by 1+ tick?

p.s. Great guide.

#23 Warlocomotif

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:14 AM

I wonder why you specc "Improved Howl of Terror" in the Affli-Tree and not e.g. Seed of Corruption which might be of bigger importance in certain raid situations (LK ghosts) or 2/2 SL.


Needed Improved Howl of Terror to move down the tree- if Soul Burn SoC were available at that level I would've taken it. Like I notced however, optional talents are optional, feel free to move those around.

[edit] @ Vo1os: I never considered that, and am also on a EU server- so I can't test it. Interesting question however.
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#24 vo1os

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:30 AM

Know that it can be clipped at 1-14 sec left without damage loss. Interested about haste influence on base spell, not the +1 clipped tick )

#25 Unknowndiv

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:34 AM

Know that it can be clipped at 1-14 sec left without damage loss. Interested about haste influence on base spell, not the +1 clipped tick )

As I said, it's not affected by haste at all

#26 Scabreux

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:15 AM

Needed Improved Howl of Terror to move down the tree- if Soul Burn SoC were available at that level I would've taken it. Like I notced however, optional talents are optional, feel free to move those around.

[edit] @ Vo1os: I never considered that, and am also on a EU server- so I can't test it. Interesting question however.


Shame on me :-)

#27 Talimar

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:40 PM

A few destruction questions comes to mind:
Do we stick with incinerate during heroism while below 50%? Or even use soulfire?
Should we reforge to haste wherever possible if under a certain number?
Is it better to hardcast soulfire at the start of fight and save shards for searing pain even if only using sp below 50%?

#28 CronoFire

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:52 PM

Ok I have a question about the affliction build. For the last few points (I know it won't make much of a difference when Cata comes out), but for the last 5 points that go into the Destruction tree why not top off Shadow and Flame to make Shadow Bolt do more damage rather than doing Bane and making it cast faster (esp with reforging all crit to haste and mastery)?

#29 koltara

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:48 PM

With haste being stronger for Demo than Int, will it make sense to replace Int/haste gems with pure haste gems?

#30 calderstrake

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:06 PM

Thanks for the post but I have some questions please?

1. what is the best opening cast sequence for affliction ?
2. Can we clip bane of agony too, shortly after the before last tick ?
3. Why corruption in destruction rotation (we must always keep up corruption)?


1. Although the priority is Corruption > Haunt > UA > BoA > Shadow Embrace > DS (<=25) > SB or DL; the best opening rotation should still be: SB > Haunt > UA > BoA > Corruption. Here's why: you get an early SE and a built in delay for the tank to get aggro and Corruption is cast last to possibly give time to proc trinkets to increase dmg output for the duration of the fight.

2. Has already been answered, but yes.

3. Corruption is now a valid source of dmg for destro with typical dmg around 5% for a boss fight.

@OP: great post as I've been looking for this information for the past few hours. :)

#31 Tjlock

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:17 PM

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#32 Desdemonique

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:18 PM

I'm frankly not 100% sure of these glyphsSpell Priority:

  • Shadowflame


First off, good morning. :) I have 2 items I wanted to point out in the Destruction section that I had suggestions for - I'd like to posit that the Glyph of Imp will do better than Glyph of Conflagrate, but I'm still testing it out to know for sure. Also, in the priority list you wrote Shadowflame as a spell, but I believe you meant Shadowburn? If not, I'd hate to have to get within melee range for that one.

Last, I have a question for you: Is CoE still not viable, or should we be using it now?

Thanks in advance for any advice/feedback!

~Des

#33 calderstrake

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:29 PM

Is CoE still not viable, or should we be using it now?


CoE is still the spell that you cast if and only if you are the only person in the raid that can provide that buff.

#34 Tjlock

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:30 PM

First off, good morning. :) I have 2 items I wanted to point out in the Destruction section that I had suggestions for - I'd like to posit that the Glyph of Imp will do better than Glyph of Conflagrate, but I'm still testing it out to know for sure. Also, in the priority list you wrote Shadowflame as a spell, but I believe you meant Shadowburn? If not, I'd hate to have to get within melee range for that one.

Last, I have a question for you: Is CoE still not viable, or should we be using it now?

Thanks in advance for any advice/feedback!

~Des



why not Incinerate ?

#35 Scathbais

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:36 PM

Needed Improved Howl of Terror to move down the tree- if Soul Burn SoC were available at that level I would've taken it. Like I notced however, optional talents are optional, feel free to move those around.

[edit] @ Vo1os: I never considered that, and am also on a EU server- so I can't test it. Interesting question however.


In response to your comment, Soul Burn SoC IS a necessary PvE (raiding) talent in Wrath dungeons/raids. The trees, however, are designed with Cata dungeons and end-game raiding (lvl 85) in mind. Soul Burn SoC is a PvP talent in Cata, so not necessary for the 31-points we need to put in to the Affliction tree. Remember, Cata will focus on crowd control and will not be the AOE fest that Wrath was. Fear and CoW will be much more useful in Cata. SoC, not so much.

#36 Tromar

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:39 PM

Also, in the priority list you wrote Shadowflame as a spell, but I believe you meant Shadowburn? If not, I'd hate to have to get within melee range for that one.


No, shadowflame is higher dpet then incinerate so it should be used whenever possible.

#37 Warlocomotif

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:44 PM

With haste being stronger for Demo than Int, will it make sense to replace Int/haste gems with pure haste gems?


This depends on your specific gear setup, the anwser at high end gear levels is likely yes. However also depends on latency.

1. what is the best opening cast sequence for affliction ?


Corr->UA->BoA->Haunt. The reason we previously used a shadow bolt first was solely due to crit rolling. Now that crit rolling is fixed and sp/haste/crit are updated every single time corruption gets refreshed, the extra ticks you'll get from applying dots first will outweigh the benefit of having a % more damage on 1 o2 r ticks, but also 1 or 2 ticks less in total. The reason I put haunt higher on the priority list than UA/BoA is because haunt is also responsible for Shadow Embrace esspecially below 25%), and 3 stacks of shadow embrace falling off and needing tobe re-applied will cost you a ton of damage.

Also, in the priority list you wrote Shadowflame as a spell, but I believe you meant Shadowburn?


Nope, Shadowflame. When they removed the horror effect from this in beta they decided to buff it's damage so it wouldnt be totally useless. Unfortunately now it's so powerful that we should use it in our single target DPS rotation.

I actually haven't done any testing or looked at base damage / spellpower co-efficient for shadow burn, I'm not 100% sure if we should be using that or not.

Last, I have a question for you: Is CoE still not viable, or should we be using it now?

Since you can now use CoE while also using your damage banes, using CoE is often a good idea.

And yeah- I'll check out glyphs.

PS. Please edit the large quote out of your post.
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#38 killakast

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:45 PM

First off, Excellent job on getting this up so early. Good work. I know this will be a living document as things change but it is great to have this as a start. Excellent start at that.


Could you clarify in your guide what to do with backdraft charges in the destruction rotation?

As I understood it as long as threat is no issue Searing Pain is better than Incinerate even when the target mob is above 50% health, so Incinerate should be dropped completely in this scenario. But how should one proceed as long as backdraft charges are left? Let them rot, or switch to Incinerate for them. The answer potentially differs once the target drops below 50%.


Threat is an issue if you are using SP from the start, but you're right it will give you much more dps/damage. I did equip a level 60 trinket just to add an additional threat dump from [Fetish of the Sand Reaver] for testing purposes. It helped but only for a short amount of time. However when I soul shattered at 50% began my SP spam I had no major issues. I did have a Paladin in raid assist me with Hand of Salvation (might want to save those for locks after 50%) as well during that time, but dps was insane. I kept my rotaion Corrup>Immo>Conflag>BOD>CB>Incx2>SP x(3-5) Always hit my conflag and CB off cool down and tried to get back to SP as fast as possible while not letting my BD rot.



It is most likely not viable threat wise to use a 100% SP rotation, if it is for you due to great tanks (or if I am perhaps underestimating tank threat in general) then you would still want to use incinerate during backdraft when above 50%. This may not have been the case previously- however since Blizzard fixed Shadow and Flame Incinerate has become slightly better at competing with Searing Pain.


I agree. I also was getting good dps from Incinerate but SP spamming was putting me around 2.5 -5k higher in certain fights. 20K threat is still going to be tough for most tanks to compete with so warlocks might become more annoying to tanks this expac, hehe. Wonder if Blizzard will just take the threat away from SP?


For the meantime, I'm going to continue to use the threat dumping trinket, so I can continue to work SP in my normal rotation till the treat issues of SP get worked out or they buff incinerate so that it will out weigh SP again.

#39 rmhardin

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:47 PM

I'd like to posit that the Glyph of Imp will do better than Glyph of Conflagrate, but I'm still testing it out to know for sure.


Because of the Backdraft buff provided by Conflagrate, I'd imagine that being able to cast it as soon as possible would be more beneficial than the damage increase from Glyph of Imp.

However, considering that Incinerate is the lowest on the priority list of spells, perhaps replacing the Glyph of Incinerate with Glyph of Imp would prove beneficial. Hopefully one would not be using Incinerate as more than the last line of filler, so its glyph's benefits wouldn't serve much purpose.

#40 killakast

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:57 PM

A few destruction questions comes to mind:
Do we stick with incinerate during heroism while below 50%? Or even use soulfire?


I still used SP with Heroism/Bloodlust and Soulfired when I got a proc. Keep in mind I also keep immo>conflag>CB in my dps priority order.

Should we reforge to haste wherever possible if under a certain number?


I would certainly go with Haste till about 1000 for destro and then go to Mastery(assuming you are already hit cap). If SP is also a major nuke spell for us, haste becomes less important to me at the moment since it doesn't take alot to make that spell move fast. I think you should keep in mind that stat priority for locks now is something like: Hit>Int>Mastery>Haste>Spell Power>Stamina?(assuming you are already hit cap).


Is it better to hardcast soulfire at the start of fight and save shards for searing pain even if only using sp below 50%?

I would (fixed)




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