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4.0 Pre-Cataclysm Raiding


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#41 killakast

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:02 PM

Also not sure about getting Shadowburn or shadowfury at all. I was thinking of Nether protection for raiding. Seems to give you more bang per talent. I most likely will not use Shadowburn or Shadowfury in my rotation unless I'm pvping.

#42 marano

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:09 PM

I wouldn't.


Why wouldn't you? DPS is calculated from the moment your first spell hits. So hardcasting a soulfire at pull actually increases your dps and allows you to save your 3 shards for SP. Whenever imp soulfire expires you sould also hard cast it for the buff.

#43 killakast

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:11 PM

Why wouldn't you? DPS is calculated from the moment your first spell hits. So hardcasting a soulfire at pull actually increases your dps and allows you to save your 3 shards for SP. Whenever imp soulfire expires you sould also hard cast it for the buff.


I'm sorry I meant to say I would. Thank you.
Mainly in most fights you can pre-cast soulfire as well.

#44 Vago

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:19 PM

Threat is an issue if you are using SP from the start, but you're right it will give you much more dps/damage. I did equip a level 60 trinket just to add an additional threat dump from [Fetish of the Sand Reaver] for testing purposes. It helped but only for a short amount of time. However when I soul shattered at 50% began my SP spam I had no major issues. I did have a Paladin in raid assist me with Hand of Salvation (might want to save those for locks after 50%) as well during that time, but dps was insane. I kept my rotaion Corrup>Immo>Conflag>BOD>CB>Incx2>SP x(3-5) Always hit my conflag and CB off cool down and tried to get back to SP as fast as possible while not letting my BD rot.


Wouldn't that be Incx3 instead of 2?

Also, since they removed the <80% health for Improved Soul Fire I wonder how much this will affect the current spell "rotation"?

Will the 15% haste buff be worth casting a 4 second spell (not including and haste here) every 15 seconds?

#45 Nartas

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:36 PM

I'm sorry I meant to say I would. Thank you.
Mainly in most fights you can pre-cast soulfire as well.


There's nothing wrong with Soulburning then immediately soul harvest prior to the pull to get your 3rd shard back. Plus this way it enables you to put up doom immo corruption with out insta 25k SF crit to pull right off the bat.

I find personally that, since we pop hero at the start of the fight, saving a backdraft proc for CB's cd if < Conflag CD of course, then use the two other backdrafts on incin (they're all going to be 1 sec or below). If you don't have Backdraft AND Hero/BL then use SP.

Little side note, but it does actually feel good to have to THINK, albeit not THAT much, but you still have to think while playing destro vs Ulduar destro. Doesn't it feel good to be spanking the melee now or is it just me? Getting crushed by ArP warriors for the last year...well yeah anyways. GL and have fun.

#46 jaredloo

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:37 PM

Why would I ever think of reforging crit to anything but Hit?


Hit only has priority over reforging to haste until you reach the hit cap which is 17%. Once you hit that, any additional hit points are useless. So then Haste becomes the priority. If you can't reforge to haste because haste is already there, then you go with mastery.

#47 shumoo

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:43 PM

All talent specs can and should use guardian pets (Doom Guard / Infernal)

Ugh! What do you have as far as dps numbers for the difference between pets as Demonology. in 4.0? I largely ignored the fact that the guardian pets existed because I'm not a quester at heart and prior to this patch they were not necessary.

Edit: Didn't the guardian pets also NOT provide the Demonic Pact buff? Has that changed in 4.0?

#48 killakast

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:45 PM

Wouldn't that be Incx3 instead of 2?


If you noticed in the rotation I gave one of the BD procs to CB.

Especially after 50% I would like to get back to SP A.S.A.P so if giving a BD proc to CB when its there, atm I have been doing so. Not much of a dps lost considering SP>Inc. with or without proc after 50%.

#49 Desdemonique

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:45 PM

I'm thinking you meant Soulburning there, Nartas. ;)

#50 Nasfaratus

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:55 PM

Could anyone shed light on where the importance of haste over crit for Destruction scales in?

Upon starting my testing once on live, I reforged as much spirit and crit to mastery as I could. I began testing on dummies, and kept a steady 9.5-10.5k DPS. Due to seeing the diminished amount I was obtaining critical strikes, I decided to reforge again, replacing spirit and haste for mastery, retaining all crit. After ample testing with the same conditions, I pulled a steady 12.5-13.5k DPS.

It seems to be that for Destruction, my DPS scaled much better with crit rather than haste. My Incinerate casts with Improved Soul Fire and BD proc were near GCD, and if SP is to be a crucial part of the Destruction rotation, which has a shorter cast than Incinerate, I fail to see where the haste is scaling with DPS better than crit is.

Any insight would be appreciated so I may further my testing.

#51 Kuku

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:56 PM

Ugh! What do you have as far as dps numbers for the difference between pets as Demonology. in 4.0? I largely ignored the fact that the guardian pets existed because I'm not a quester at heart and prior to this patch they were not necessary.

Edit: Didn't the guardian pets also NOT provide the Demonic Pact buff? Has that changed in 4.0?

It hasn't changed, as far as I know, but it's also irrelevant. You can have your infernal/doomguard out along with your usual pet. In other words, you'll have two pets for a short time.

#52 jaredloo

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 05:14 PM

Best Meta Gem

I was fooled in to getting the bracing earthsiege diamond, thinking that since int scales much higher than crit, then it only makes sense. Or does it? After rethinking, and deciding to do the math for myself, I found that our best meta gem is still Chaotic Skyflare Diamond.

note: 1% crit = 46. Chaotic Skyflare Diamond has a total of 21 + (46 x 3) = 159 crit

Affliction
Chaotic Skyflare Diamond = 159 crit x 2.0733 dps = 329.65 dps
Earthsiege Diamond = 21 Int x 4.1835 dps = 87.85 dps
Tireless Skyflare Diamond = 21 Int x 4.1835 dps = 87.85 dps

Demonology
Chaotic Skyflare Diamond = 159 crit x 1.8953 dps = 301.35dps
Bracing Earthsiege Diamond = 21 Int x 3.2822 dps = 68.92 dps
Tireless Skyflare Diamond = 21 Int x 3.2822 dps = 68.92 dps

Destruction
Chaotic Skyflare Diamond = 159 crit x 1.9349 dps = 307.64 dps
Bracing Earthsiege Diamond = 21 Int x 3.5955 dps = 75.51 dps
Tireless Skyflare Diamond = 21 Int x 3.5955 dps = 75.51 dps


Maybe I'm the last to discover this, but thought I'd post it in case people are still wondering.

#53 tr0tsky

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 05:17 PM

note: 1% crit = 46. Chaotic Skyflare Diamond has a total of 21 + (46 x 3) = 159 crit


Chaotic Skyflare Diamond adds 3% critical damage, not 3% crit.

#54 Lavandris

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 05:37 PM

EDIT: Did some quick testing of my own today. For those of you unsure about Succy vs Felhunter for affliction:

Felhunter, no dots: 703.5 dps over ~120s fights.
Felhunter, my dots: 1001.1 dps.
Succubus, no glyph: 982.4 dps.
Succubus, glyph of lash of pain: 1171.7 dps.

#55 Livvia

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:19 PM

==Demonology==
Prime Glyphs: Immolate, Incinerate, Metamorphosis
Major Glyphs: Life Tap, Shadow Bolt


Curious what math/theorycraft support was behind dropping the Felguard glyph, presumably in favor of Incinerate?

#56 Morket

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:38 PM

You should be glyphing Imp over Incinerate for Destro.


If you use searing pain after the target has reached the 50 % it's a good idea I think . But I tested some tank on the PTR and you have to pay attention to your aggro , not always is possible to use a searing pain filler sequence.It's better start with incinerate.And later searing pain.

For example Lord Marrowgar, during the bonestorm tank can't do aggro , and it's a problem if you start immediatly with searing pain . Ok we have a new soul shatter , more stronger but we have to pay more attention in this type of fight I think .

So if you are sure to manage you aggro and you never use incinerate after the target reach 50 % ok use GLyph of imp , on the contrary incinerate glyph

#57 Morrden

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 07:28 PM

It seems to me that while SP is better dummy DPS, it's really impractical in most fights. Maybe the tank who I ran with was just getting used to the changes, but when we hit 50% on bosses and I started tossing in SP to my rotation, I had to switch back to incin in order to avoid pulling aggro. This happened almost every fight.

#58 Beerguzzler

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 07:33 PM

I used SP almost exclusively throughout most of ICC last night. Yell at your rogues/hunters if they are not using tricks/md's. It makes a huge difference.

The incin glyph has pretty much become worthless if you learn to manage your aggro.

#59 tr0tsky

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 07:40 PM

I used SP almost exclusively throughout most of ICC last night. Yell at your rogues/hunters if they are not using tricks/md's. It makes a huge difference.

The incin glyph has pretty much become worthless if you learn to manage your aggro.


Tricks/MD are only a temporary threat gain now, like a reverse Fade. That having been said, it might be ok in 25-man if you have enough Hunters/Rogues to keep it cycling. In a 10 man last night, I was having threat issues with "full" SP (except burning 2 charges of backdraft on Incin).

#60 eoz5001

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 08:05 PM

You should also note that if there are no other warlocks in the raid or party, you can have Curse of Elements up along with Bane of Agony, or even Bane of Doom. Thats because they are separate from one another. One is considered a "Bane" and one is considered a "Curse"




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