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The Retribution Concordance - 4.0.1


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#21 Sageth

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:17 PM

I've done several training dummy tests today to test the different rotations / stats that have been suggested. All my tests consist of doing 4-5 million damage on the Heroic Training Dummy. Being fully hit and expertise capped with the TV, CS and SoT glyphs. I used AW + Zealotry once during each test, both at the same time.

I started with reforging my gear. Crit was supposedly the best stat. With that I got a maximum of 6k dps on a training dummy. I tested this both with the CS > Filler > wait > CS rotation as the CS > Filler > Filler > CS rotation. Using 2 fillers always ended up doing more dps.

After that I reforged to haste. This brought my haste up to 890. Again the CS > Filler > Filler > CS rotation produced more dps, about 3-400 more. My best rotation ended up with me doing about 6750-6800 dps.


Finally I tried to hit the haste-sweet-spot at 1020-1030. I had to get 7 +20 haste gems. Using the most socket bonuses this lead to a trade of 112 strength for 140 haste. This leads to a CS > Filler > CS rotation. My DPS started low but over the millions of damage done it evened out at 6550 dps. The loss of strength did hurt my dps but the rotation at this amount of haste is pretty much the best you can have. To bad it isn't the best for dps.

At 1026 haste and fully selfbuffed CS's cooldown is at 3.15 seconds. Over the 17.5 minutes fighting that 0.15 extra seconds of downtime builds up to 52,5 seconds. In a raid situation the CS cooldown will most likely be 3 seconds.

I did 6.833.143 damage during those 17.5 minutes which is about 6555 dps. With a 3.0 sec cooldown on CS I would have done that amount of damage over 16.6 minutes which is about 6900 dps. But if this will be enough to pull ahead of extra 112 strength and a CS > Filler > Filler > CS rotation I don't know.

#22 frmorrison

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:44 PM

For major glyphs, Divine Protection was bugged on the PTR in that it gives 20% physical and 40% magical (it will be fixed sometime).

For talents, Acts of Sacrifice on Beta is planned to allow you to remove movement slowing effects on yourself with Cleanse. While we still have HoF, having another way to get out of slowing effects could be useful.

For mechanics, you wrote that HoW is a ranged physical attack. HoW works as a ranged special attack with Holy damage that can be deflected if the target is facing you (a deflection is just like a parry).
I have never seen a HoW dodged.

#23 Mattes

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:45 PM

Well i also visited our friend, Donald the dummy, quite alot today.

I've gemmed for str/haste in yellow sockets, reforged expertise and hit down to the cap with haste, and ended up with somewhat 890ish haste.
At the dummy it still felt that (even with my 80 latency) the 3,1ish cooldown on cs was somewhat still not low enough and i had the feeling i couldv pushed another ability 0,1 to 0,2s earlier.
So i reforged the rest of my gear (which was exactly ONE item ^^) from crit to haste and right now got something like:

Haste: 914
Crit: 29,8% (BIG SAD FACE)
AP: ~5700 (sry EU Armory is down and i dont find my authenticator right now)

With JotP and 5% Spellhaste this brought down my CS cooldown to somewhat 3,05ish..

The rotation felt _nearly_ fluently...though i think that even there couldve been a minor 0,1s or so i could cast it earlier...which is kind of curious, because in my latency-filled environment a aprx. cd of 3,2s on cs should be sufficient.

Long story short:

Self buffed (BoM) + 5% Spellhaste i ended up doing around 8,4-8,5k DpS for something like 3-4m damage.


Well guess i'll see tomorrow in icc how this haste value plays out in a real raid-environment.

#24 Mewee

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:46 PM

Just wanted to contribute with my findings regarding the use of the rebuke macros.

In our raid tonight, I ran with

#showtooltip crusader strike
/cancelaura chaos bane
/startattack
/cast Rebuke
/cast crusader strike
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

for all my attacks (cs,tv,exo,judge,hw)

I'm not extremely savvy when it comes to filtering things on WoL parses, When I look over our saurfang kill I tried to deduct exactly how much damage I was gaining from using rebuke on cooldown.

The log can be found here:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The encounter took 2:47 seconds which equals 167 seconds or 16 rebuke uses.

I landed 193 seals (hits+crits) totaling 353.109 damage. That's an average of ~1830 per seal. That means if I used rebuke on cooldown (which I should have with the macros, I don't actually know how to see that in the log), Rebuke would have contributed 29280 total damage over the encounter.

Seeing as I did 2.769.633 (2.77million) damage total, I can calculate that rebuke equalled (29280*100%)/2769633 = 1,06% of my overall dps. Nothing spectacular, kinda like the same gain as minor glyph of sense undead before the patch.

EDIT: found out I could just click on Rebuke to see that I had 17 uses, which would change the calculation to (31110*100%)/2769633 = 1,12%

#25 Nätion

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:57 PM

Did you include both SoT and SoC procs in the seal damage?

I came up with it contributing 2.6% damage.

#26 Avitus

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:15 AM

Great job setting this up Exemplar, love the concise breakdown.

One minor suggestion:

For the Avenging Wrath + Zealotry macro I would suggest you switch the casts around (or use showtooltip for Zealotry) like this:

#showtooltip
/cast Zealotry
/cast Avenging Wrath

This way the button/macro only lights up when you have 3 HP and Zealotry is guaranteed to activate along with Avenging Wrath, as opposed to having to coordinate with your Holy Power bar and/or risk activating Avenging Wrath while Zealotry fails to cast due to insufficient Holy Power.



Speaking of Holy Power, for those of us who still like to use OmniCC + Buttons (without CLCret or similar), has anyone found a mod that dims/colors Templar's Verdict/Divine Storm if you have less than 3 Holy Power?
Something along the lines of what tullaRange/RedRange do to out of range abilities.
I'm on the look out for a mod like that as it feels way too easy to activate one of those abilities at 1-2 HP as soon as the ability undims, at a massive DPS loss. Failing that, I'll probably attempt to write my own mod.

#27 Mewee

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:20 AM

Did you include both SoT and SoC procs in the seal damage?

I came up with it contributing 2.6% damage.


I don't believe rebuke procs seal of command. According to the talent tooltip, the command portion is attached to your swings and not to your seal hit. Can anyone confirm?

#28 Nätion

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:23 AM

I don't believe rebuke procs seal of command. According to the talent tooltip, the command portion is attached to your swings and not to your seal hit. Can anyone confirm?


See my posts on this page, it does indeed trigger both.
http://elitistjerks...._cataclysm/p33/

#29 Furiousk

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:51 AM

(Recommended to be Glyphed mana-free) Rebuke is a must as long as it procs a seal.

I just caught a bug in how I was calculating Inquisition up-time in my spreadsheet (Inq wasn't stealing HP or GCD from TV, so I would get as many TV with or without Inq). Once the bug was fixed, I'm finding Inq is a DPS loss - in ICC gear at L80 (which isn't possible since Inq is L81). I'm pretty sure part of this is due to high haste values and the quantity of CS/TV reducing fewer spellcasts. It will be something for us to examine at L85 in 85 gear. That section is definitely up for review as we gather more data. It's possible Inq is initially good at L85, then as gear increases and we reduce CS CD that we could move to a state where No Inq was superior.


I am not sure what they intended with inquisition quite frankly, our main damaging attacks have no holy damage at all in them anymore. Was the intention to give us a slice and dice/feral fury buff (maintain at all times or its a dps loss) or something else? It would be a no brainer if it were a flat 30% buff to damage. Hopefully as we see more logs we can make a better judgement. Ill do a few more rounds with MR dummy and see what i can come up with.

#30 Kragshot Prime

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:04 AM

So the general consensus is that with the new patch, Ret Pallys are going to take a dps hit no matter what, even with reforging our gear to take advantage of the new shift in stat priorities?

I guess the next question is to simply ask, is Consecration even needed now with the new rotation? Yes it does 3k dmg over it's duration, but with its 30 sec CD, does that 3K make up for what you lose in the rotation due to the GCD? I just did a ToC25 and I didn't see a whole lot of difference in my numbers between using Consecrate and skipping it.

Note that I haven't done any reforging as of yet. Before the new patch hit, I was in the process of dropping my hit rating (had way too much).

#31 Josefar

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:17 AM

Has anyone redone the values of our tier 10 set bonuses? Since judgement and seal damage has lowered could raw stats give more dps?

#32 Killmour

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:53 AM

Exemplar, have you noticed when your CS is ~ 3 seconds due to haste that you are still waiting for a CS every time you do CS - Filler - CS?

It seems like even when my filler is not a spell my GCD is shorter. Is anyone else seeing this?

#33 flyingtoastr

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:57 AM

Excellent job Exemplar.

Minor addition, but if you're like me and absolutely can't stand extra buttons on the bar, here's the macro for have all 3 "finishers" on one button (much like the old Judgement macro).

#showtooltip
/cast [nomodifier] Templar's Verdict; /cast [modifier:shift] Divine Storm; /cast [modifier:alt] Inquisition


#34 Killmour

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 06:56 AM

It seems like a 3 stack TV is hitting for 250%-260% weapon damage now instead of 225 with the new hotfix.

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#35 Thumos

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:24 AM

It seems like a 3 stack TV is hitting for 250%-260% weapon damage now instead of 225 with the new hotfix.

Posted Image


Hammer of Wrath is critting for 20K+. Censure does more damage also.

#36 TheBacon

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:53 AM

Exemplar, have you noticed when your CS is ~ 3 seconds due to haste that you are still waiting for a CS every time you do CS - Filler - CS?

It seems like even when my filler is not a spell my GCD is shorter. Is anyone else seeing this?


I also noticed this, I have an exactly 3 second cooldown CS with a spriest. I grabbed one to bang on the dummies for a bit. There is the expected .5 second gap inbetween a spell (exo, cons and holy wrath) but I was also seeing up to .2 seconds of waiting on CS to finish it's cooldown after the gcd was up following a TV or judgement. It wasn't consistent at all though. I was around 150ms and at 20 fps. Everything seemed to be fine server stability wise as well. My guildmate suggested that it possibly could have something to do with the ability queueing system, I'm not quite sure what effect that would have though. To me though it seems that haste would still have a pretty decent value past the 3 second cooldown mark due to the number of spell fillers and the odd faster gcds of TV and judgement.

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#37 Agusta

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 08:05 AM

I have found using the addon Retribution Rotation Helper, that I found on wowinterface.com, simpler than attempting to setup the new clcinfo, I did not attempt to use the new clcret however, so that may be superior. In either case, it could be an addon option worth mentioning. It is much more basic that clcret was and clcinfo is.

About that, I tried this one yesterday too but it caused some serious fps issues for me. Maybe it was a conflict with some other addon (maybe outdated) but keep that in mind if you try it.

Good job Exemplar gathering all that info on this nice first post. :)

#38 Guest_Adaptation_*

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 08:15 AM

Has anyone redone the values of our tier 10 set bonuses? Since judgement and seal damage has lowered could raw stats give more dps?


this + plus the changes to 2p T9 make me wonder if 2p 277 T10 + 2p 258 T9 is superior to 4p 277 T10.

#39 bg_sanata

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 08:23 AM

Great job Exemplar,

I wanna ask isn't better to use Wings and Zealotry on different time. IF the fight is like sourfang it's OK but on fight where we have to move, I'm not so sure. For example on proff fight you can use wings just to spam HoW on slimes before you reach them (maybe even you can auto attack proff and spam HoW on slimes). 20-22k hits with spam button is insane dps gain, no need to spend and Zealotry at this time u can have it sync with BL or something.


edit: Sry didn't notice we can't spam HoW, we can use it maybe 4times only with wings up.

#40 Leonti

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 08:41 AM

Great summary!

@Exemplar: Does your spreadsheet provide information about how often our primary skills are used in a simulated static fight using the actual preferred priority chain (frequencies for CS, TV, Exo, …)? The logs i've seen so far are very variable.

I would like to use this information to determine an optimal keyboard layout, based on these frequencies and my habits. Perhaps these informations are usefull for everyone else, too.
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