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The Retribution Concordance - 4.0.1


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#41 Nisall

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 10:26 AM

I'm a bit confused with the rough lvl 80 stat weights and

Generic 80 Suggestion
At 80 it is recommended to Hit Cap, then Expertise Cap, then aim for the Haste soft cap (where CS CD drops to 3 seconds plus twice your typical latency). Haste beyond this soft cap will only affect autoattack and becomes less valuable than crit.


Looking at the stat weights we should go for crit as the best reforge option (assuming hit/exp cap), but the above quote suggests haste is better until the soft cap.

#42 dbpalli

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 10:58 AM

Hi, I tried to check out your recommended talent tree 5/0/(30+1) but couldn't get it to load.
I had hoped to see your selections.
Just letting you know.

#43 Vespers

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 11:03 AM

Nisall, those stat weights are misleading; as far as I can tell, the weights that put crit over haste are Exemplar's weightings in his own gear currently, in which he is already haste soft-capped.

Which is to say, soft-cap haste.

#44 lichdawg

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:14 PM

To the OP:

Could you please add an author acknowledgement in your post, since your layout loots very much like Consider two DK threads ( http://elitistjerks....trongest_flame/). IF this is entirely coincidental you can in that case ignore this.

#45 moonsond

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:23 PM

Thank you Exemplar.

I have a possible suggestion. I really liked this post by Overweight, specifically the way he described our new "rotation":

I beleive the current rotation is

CS>Filler>CS>Filler>CS>Finisher

Finisher Priorities are TV (single target) DS (multi-target) or Inq (when there's less than X seconds)
Filler Priorities are Judge, Exo, HoW, HW, Cons (if mana).

<...>

We also have to watch our mastery proc (finisher becomes a filler attack) and procs from our filler attacks of HP which will cause us to cast the finisher earlier. than expected.

The effective priority order is the same as with the usual FCFS priority list you have used (you only need to replace Judge and Exo in filler priorities), but it might be easier to understand the overall idea of managing our abilities (stack HP as fast as possible, use the correct finisher and fill gaps with proper fillers) using this approach.

The problem i'm currently concerned about is the weapon to use after the patch. Yesterday, after dealing with the addon issues and resocketing/reforging my gear to get as close to haste soft cap as i could (1008 rating) i found my char having 1984 str and ~4.4k AP unbuffed. My crit is relatively high (34.80%), but these strength and AP values are definetly too low for the overal level of my gear. The issue is in my Heroic Bloodfall that has lost all of it's attack power, and the crit it holds now (in form of agility) has much less value than AP in form of str a strength weapon would have.
I ran several dummy tests to compare my damage using 277 Bloodfall and Shadow's Edge. The polearm was better on a long run. Concerning the stats impact - switching to the 264ilvl axe i lose ~4% crit and gain ~150 str(~300 AP).
But now the question is, how good the HC Bloodfall would be compared, for example, with 271ilvl Glorenzelg? With Heroic Bryntroll or Cryptmaker? And what is the general weapons rating after the patch?

(Unfortunately, armory won't display anything useful at the moment, it shows my character in it's 24-hour old state).

#46 Mattes

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:41 PM

With the new fix HoW should definately be Nr.1 Filler, i even think that HoW MIGHT be more valuable in situations it can be used (ie AW or under 20%) than TV due to the nearly 100% Crit HoW.

Just stood on the dummy for another 4million and:


A 3HP-TV still crits higher than HoW (28023TV to 24252HoW)...but on the other hand HoW does crit to somewhat nearly 100% i a raid now, while i a 4million test i've only got a measely 39% Crit on TVs.

The question is if we should still use AW and Zealotry combined...and if so, does HoW even come before TVs in those cases + under 20% ?

#47 Vaathi

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:43 PM

I was checking rotation and stuff on dummy this morning and it really seems we've been buffed.

Now i really aggree with ppl saying that you should use AW on different time than Zealotry. And with HoW up, he comes first on our priority, but, i have a question here. Now that we all have low crit (about 30%), when a boss drops belows 20% (or ur using AW), and can HoW it, would it be better to HoW first and delay TV? Since HoW hits (w/ only might) for 21-22k crits, and my TV was hitting for 13k, and critting for 23~25k (also w/ only might) i was wondering about it. I really wanted to test it but my server got a shutdown, so if anyone have any ideas about it, i would like to read ^^.

#48 Elamahpla

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:44 PM

I'm curious to know, does anyone know if the DoT from Exorcism rolls similar to the way RV did? If it doesn't roll, would it be wise to wait until the DoT drops from boss so there's no overlap? The glyph does 20% of it's damage over six seconds, so, assuming it doesn't roll similar to RV, we would, in worst case scenario have to delay by six seconds. (i.e. not use it, instead using J, HW, Con in its' place)

#49 moonsond

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:48 PM

I'm curious to know, does anyone know if the DoT from Exorcism rolls similar to the way RV did? If it doesn't roll, would it be wise to wait until the DoT drops from boss so there's no overlap? The glyph does 20% of it's damage over six seconds, so, assuming it doesn't roll similar to RV, we would, in worst case scenario have to delay by six seconds. (i.e. not use it, instead using J, HW, Con in its' place)


I believe the new dot application overwrites it in its current state.

#50 Zalinda

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:23 PM

Multiple targets
HW bumps earlier in the sequence, since it hits multiple targets, even though its damage is split between the targets.


HW does the same damage whether only 1 target is near or 10 targets, so it shouldn't change priority at all. Even in an AOE rotation J and HoW do more damage and thus should be prefered.
The only exception to this would be if you absolutely positively need to have all adds dying "at the same time", or if you are relying on the stun component of HW.
Baring this, any higher DPS is the road to go, even if you're focussing more of that dps onto a single target. Depending on the number of targets, Cons technically shifts up the more targets are near.

Zealotry
Zealotry and Avenging Wrath have identical duration and cooldown (when talented). Best usage would be to macro them together and engage as a unit.


I'm not entirely sure about this just yet. While it definately provides the highest amount of damage in a 20second timeframe (especially when matched up with trinket proc and a speed pot). It's not necessarily the highest damage over the course of a longer fight.
Under zealotry you can do the CS/TV rotation.
Under AW you can do a CS HOW CS HOW CS TV
Which with recent changes to HoW could be very interesting as well. I haven't done the math yet if combined AW+Z is better than AW followed by Z.

Additionally in a fight where you have a recurring burn phase on adds (something like valks in LK) having smaller boost every minute might be better for the raid than a single big boost every 2 minutes.

#51 Exemplar

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:54 PM

Exemplar, have you noticed when your CS is ~ 3 seconds due to haste that you are still waiting for a CS every time you do CS - Filler - CS?

It seems like even when my filler is not a spell my GCD is shorter. Is anyone else seeing this?


It feels this way, yes. Especially staring at CLCRet (haven't swapped to CLCInfo, yet). However, when I look away from CLCRet I find it only feels this way because things are still on the GCD. I certainly feel "ZOMG, why do I have .3 seconds to next ability", then see "Oh, GCD has .3 seconds to go." Chalk it up to the human experience of the duration of time. Or GCD are lasting more than 1.5 seconds at times, which would suck.

this + plus the changes to 2p T9 make me wonder if 2p 277 T10 + 2p 258 T9 is superior to 4p 277 T10.


No. Stat loss from iLevel 258 is major loss. Also, since Censure appears to be getting buffed, 10% more becomes that much better.

Does your spreadsheet provide information about how often our primary skills are used in a simulated static fight using the actual preferred priority chain (frequencies for CS, TV, Exo, …)? The logs i've seen so far are very variable.


I'm hesitant to release hard information on this, since spreadsheet is still under revision, gear impacts (I currently don't have time to keep swapping gear and comparing), and Blizzard is changing stuff on us. However, as a single data point, in order of quantity used in a 5 minute Patchwerk style fight with zero mastery: CS, TV, Exo, Judge, HW, HoW, Cons. In action I'm losing some Exo, but just realized I may have CLCRet set to J > Exo, which would be my mistake and be a reason I seem to lose some AoW procs (timer runs out before I get to Exo).

Could you please add an author acknowledgement in your post, since your layout loots very much like Consider two DK threads ( http://elitistjerks....trongest_flame/). IF this is entirely coincidental you can in that case ignore this.

Layout stolen from Arikah's old thread, FRMorrison's Holy thread, Consider's Frost and Unholy threads. I am the author, I cannot acknowledge my own writing as someone else's. Listing all contributors in the post will A) take too much space and B) take too much time to keep updated - re-read the second paragraph. Every Ret who posts on EJ forums and a fair number of folks of other classes and specs have greatly contributed to this information. We're standing on the shoulders of giants.

@moonsond - weapon comparisons are gear dependent. For instance, Glorenzelg isn't that great if you cannot reforge away enough Expertise, but if you do need the Expertise, it's probably gangbusters. Until Rawr, Redcape, or my spreadsheet are ready for 4.0, we cannot accurately answer these questions.

Rebuke:
Can someone do a clean Rebuke test for me? Turn on SoT. Set up a "/cast Rebuke /stopattack" macro. Use it a single time. Swap to SoR, wait 10 seconds, use macro once. Screenshot, WoL the log, or upload the text file somewhere. Determining what procs what is a mess. I looked at our log from last night and I'm seeing SoC procs a full second after autoattacks and abilities (including Rebuke), so it's hard to tell what caused what. I want 100% certainty of what it does/does not proc.

Avenging Wrath and Zealotry
Nalien has pointed out to me a silly error in this. My combined macro (and guide) was to pop both together. This means you lose 1.5 sec of AW to the GCD from Zealotry. Obviously not good. Updated macro (castsequence) in OP to address. This also prevents issues where you hit the macro at less than 3 HP (like I did twice last night).

Regarding HoW during AW... out to lunch. Need the new coefficients on HoW and exactly how much TV has been buffed (somewhere near 250-260% at 3HP, per earlier poster), along with buffs to seals (which would proc from TV). If HoW pulls ahead, then unlinking the cooldowns will be the way to go.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#52 Minister

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:27 PM

It also might be worth noting that Selfless Healer is useless... unless the Word of Glory would save your life.
"I'm sorry, honey, but since I stopped playing WoW it appears that there has been some sort of expansion to the game. Unfortunately, it appears to be quite good." -- Me to my Wife

#53 saboya

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:43 PM

Regarding the "sometimes shorter GCD", I noticed it happens when I use Exorcism, haven't noticed it with other abilities.

#54 Eskostar

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:47 PM

Take note that Selfless Healer only comes into play when you use it to heal another player, not yourself.

#55 Teleros

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:50 PM

It also might be worth noting that Selfless Healer is useless... unless the Word of Glory would save your life.

Assuming the change to Cleanse on the Beta makes it to Live (ie Cleanse removes snares with Acts of Sacrifice) I'll be going for Acts of Sacrifice in my PvE build to get it, especially as it also improves the cooldown on some of our key utility spells. I reckon if you need to off-heal in high-end raids to keep people alive, you're in so much trouble that I'm not sure Selfless Healer will really be worth it anyway.

#56 kammler

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:58 PM

Maybe i'm an idiot (and i'm sure you will point out if i am) but i cannot get the link for your build to work. Open in new tab, open in new window, nothing seems to work.

Any advice or assistance is appreciated.

#57 Spotnick

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:11 PM

There seems to be 2 schools of thinking in terms of gemming.

Some seem to go for full strength, some go for strenght/haste in yellow sockets.

It's rather unstable right now with hotfixes being applied, so I'd rather rely on spreadsheets, so I am assuming right that full strenght is the way to go at level 80 too?

#58 Naididae

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:22 PM

With the spell queue live, it's safe to assume we can ignore the 3 + 2*latency CS cooldown and just go straight for a 3s cooldown?

#59 Exemplar

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:28 PM

Regarding the "sometimes shorter GCD", I noticed it happens when I use Exorcism, haven't noticed it with other abilities.


I think what some folks are forgetting is that haste reduces spell GCD.

With enough haste to push CS CD to 3 seconds a rotation like: CS, Judge, CS or CS, HoW, CS would be perfect with no gaps. However, CS, Exo, CS or CS, HW, CS are actually CS, Exo, pause, CS.

By the time CS CD is at your latency's softcap (3.x seconds) then Exo, HW, Cons, or even DP will take less than 1.5 seconds on their GCD. If you get CS to exactly 3 seconds, then spell GCD becomes 1 second. So we'll never eliminate some wait time involved.

Spare Talent Points:

[20:31:11.234] Exemplar Eye for an Eye Cult Fanatic *5584* (O: -1)

Proof that Eye for an Eye is a DPS gain. Any fight with random targeted casts (or adds who cast and need to be killed) will have a chance to proc EfaE. It won't reflect AOE or multi-target spells (Frostbolt Volley had no reflects), but random single-target will. Random single-target isn't an extremely uncommon mechanic, so I'll stand by EfaE being the best "PvE damage maximizing" usage of our free talent. I won't update the OP, since it's such a minor thing I really think this is still subjective and thus there is no wrong or bad choice.

Due to multiple posts regarding issues with the spec links (work fine for me - possibly cache interaction), I've changed the links from MMO-Champ's wowtal.com to Wowhead's talent calculator. Hopefully this will resolve issues.

Edit:

There seems to be 2 schools of thinking in terms of gemming.

Some seem to go for full strength, some go for strenght/haste in yellow sockets.

It's rather unstable right now with hotfixes being applied, so I'd rather rely on spreadsheets, so I am assuming right that full strenght is the way to go at level 80 too?


Per my spreadsheet, it looks like a single Str/Crit (or Str/Haste if below your softcap) in a yellow socket for a +4 Str bonus is a gain. You might be able to wrangle a Str/Hit gem (for a blue socket) if you can reforge finely enough to transmute that Hit into Haste or Crit elsewhere.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#60 Rennadrel

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:28 PM

Hey guys, I have been doing some Ret testing this morning and things are a little better today. My initial thoughts after a night of raiding, reading what GC has said about melee getting buffed soon to compensate for the harsh DPS loss that we have seen (worse for Fury and Feral tbh) have changed my opinion a bit.

Toying with the test dummy today, I changed a couple of things around with the reforging and dropped Tiny Abomination in A Jar for heroic Deathbringer's Will combined with Herkuml War Token, I was sustaining DPS with Blessing of Might at 6800 single target on a heroic dummy. Since they have not hot fixed the issues with DPS balance, I would assume that the trinket has yielded me an increase of 1300 DPS prior to any changes that are coming. I did have to restore a couple of items since I dropped Tiny Abom which kept me at hit cap and had reforged extra hit to haste or mastery, and I reforged like 1 piece to keep me near expertise cap (24) without the Glyph of Truths which grants 10 expertise, so having Glyph of Judgment instead as a Prime I believe also improved my overall DPS and damage output.

I value any opinions on what I have tried, but I know that I was hitting 5500 on a target dummy self buffed yesterday before I got DBW and the Skeleton Lord's Circle from ICC, hitting 6800 sustained with a 7k peak with all procs and CD's blown isn't too bad.




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