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4.0.3a Tanking/Protection Field Manual :: Fordring's Groupies (Updated: Dec 2, 2010)


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#21 Maelstrom

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 07:02 AM

As a fun side-note, taunts appear to be pseudo-melee attacks now. Whilst doing our weekly Yogg+0 run I noticed I could interrupt the crusher tentacles' Diminish Power with hand of reckoning alone. This would also indicate that taunt is probably running off of the melee hit table.

#22 Darthpred

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 07:39 AM

Thanks for the work in the first place :)

I have to say something more so...

Righteous Fury - This ability remains unchanged from before by greatly increasing your threat generated, however Blizzard has been nice enough to remind Paladins in the tooltip that this ability makes you a better tank.

Not fully correct. It has effect only on Holy spells before and now...

Righteous Fury now increases all threat generation instead of affecting just Holy spells.

It's a buff for the RF.

The ability priority for single target tanking is as follows:

Shield of the Righteous > Crusader Strike > Judgement > Avenger's Shield* > Consecration > Holy Wrath

For area tanking the following priorities are used (this is a proposed rotation for now):

Shield of the Righteous > Hammer of the Righteous > Judgement > Consecration > Holy Wrath

* This is assumed AS has been glyphed for single target.

AS is still a good threat increase even on single target without a glyph, especially with GC proc and no other buttons to hit.
Also as mentioned before me you'll need at least 1 HoPo to use SotR so i see opening as Judgment/AS -> CS/HotR -> SotR. Exception is when you'll pull just after previous pack with some HoPo left.

I also feel [Glyph of Holy Wrath] will be an option to the major glyphs for crowd control because of lots of elementals and dragons in the new content (Ragnaros minions and so on). Before Cataclysm hits it is useless but it may have its place in future.

Pursuit of Justice feels more like PvP/optional talent even with the HoPo generation. There is not so much bosses with Sutn, Fear and Immobilize effects in WotLK content and I even didn't noticed a lot of them in Cata instances previews for now. Eternal Glory for a chance of WoG+SotR combo maybe, it's optional too.


Glyph of Salvation should definitely be a choice, especially since it basically becomes a second Hand of Protection that works on spells.

That's not quite correct. Glyph's tooltip says "Hand of Salvation no longer permanently reduces threat over time but instead reduces all threat as long as Hand of Salvation lasts." For me it looks like returning to old "Blessing of Salvation" variant with much lower working time but not HoP. Hand of Protection defends from physical damage and prevents from using physical attacks, not reducing threat anyway. And also Glyph or Hand itself doesn't make casting unavaliable.
But still yes, this glyph can be a choice. Just need some tests to be sure.

Why is CS always listed as a key ability for us?
Against the boss dummy, my CS was hitting for about 1.2k (all physical) while my HoR was hitting for about 400 physical and 1k holy.
Shouldn't we choose HoR over CS even against single targets?

I have 1.7k CS and 1.4k HotR against single target. Are you sure about your numbers?

#23 Zaroua

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 08:52 AM

The 5% Block Value meta (Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond, 81 stam 5% block value, requires 3 blue gems) increases our block value to 31% of the total damage dealt, which should make it the meta gem of choice for us. The only fights where the 2% armor meta could be considered on par is on fights where there is unblockable physical damage mitigated by armor.

The new Effulfgent meta - 2% spell damage reduction - now functions properly, making it a worthy choice for encounters where the elemental damage is more dangerous than than melee attacks.

The mastery change went live on beta and it is ridiculously easy to cap out on block in 333/346 gear. In other words, it'll be possible to enter the first Cata raid instance with 26-27% avoidance plus the block cap and 60%DR from armor.

The downside to all this is that we'll end up stacking avoidance and armor, which in the end making our mastery terribly dull because it has such a ludicrously low cap ceiling.


Edit: Apparently I either made some basic mistake/am stupid or this got changed, but in any case the 5% block value meta pushes block to 31% of the total damage.
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#24 Sahas

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 04:46 PM

i was wondering what everyone's thoughts on Reckoning and Judgements of the Pure. seems to me that Judgments�*of the Pure's haste buff works very well with Reckoning.�*faster haste = moar threat and an extra attack is always nice. has anyone run some numbers on this? i am spec'd for it at the moment and i want to make sure i'm not a complete baddy. thanks guys. love the site!


Theck's initial sim which was run from numbers/data gathered in the last two weeks puts JotP as 3rd worst for threat.

Check here for his method and explanation.


Regarding an earlier post comparing the two HoPo generating abilities, it should be noted that our single target rotation should always be focused on CS rather than HotR due to the fact that CS just hit harder on a single target than HotR. From there, the rotation is pretty static assuming you're prioritizing your abilities correctly and depending on what you have glyphed/talented.

The AoE rotation is a bit more fluid, especially if you are accounting for GrC procs. If the goal is to have the most threat on the most targets at the same time, then yeah, you're not going to adhere to the strict HotR, J, HotR, X, HotR, ShoR. GrC procs will most likely be prioritized for utility in snagging stray adds or supplementing threat on various targets that have not received as much damage from you as others.

#25 Theck

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 05:01 PM

Comments from the peanut gallery:

1) As Darthpred mentioned, unglyphed AS is still better than Holy Wrath or Consecration for single targets. If mana isn't an issue, Cons does more damage than Holy Wrath thanks to AP scaling and Vengeance. For a single-target scenario, ShoR>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW would probably be the ideal queue, using Consecration only if mana permits. I'd also glyph Consecration for single targets if using that system, as the cooldown increase is irrelevant on a 9-second cycle.

2) I haven't worked out the numbers for AoE rotations yet, hopefully I'll get to it soon. From tinkering around in heroics, my impression is that it will turn out to be HotR>AS(unglyphed)>HW>Cons>J>ShoR. I don't know that it's going to be that strict though, as AoE tanking right now is very reactive; it can be better to use abilities based on the situation (e.g. breaking rotation to ShoR a mob you've just lost aggro on).

Once Inquisition opens up at 81, it will likely go to the front of the queue. Also note that as of yesterday, Crusade is bugged and not affecting Hammer of the Righteous (either portion), and the T10 2-piece bonus is not affecting the Holy portion. Both of those make AoE tanking a lot dicier.

3) RE: talent specs, your "Guardian" spec has 2/2 Hallowed Ground and 0/2 Reckoning. Consecration is such a weak part of our single-target rotation that HG is not a significant DPS increase, while each point of Reckoning is around 100 DPS if reforging to reach block cap. My experience so far is that Hallowed Ground is simply unnecessary for either single-target or AoE tanking. I could see someone making an argument for 1/2 in it to make mana usage less tight, though not at the expense of Reckoning (likely by dropping one point out of Improved Judgements at 80).

I have a fairly thorough talent spec guide up over at maintankadin that has some heavy survival (i.e. WoG and HMLK) builds in it, feel free to steal them if you like.

4) Glyphs: You left Glyph of Crusader Strike off of the list, though it's anemic enough that nobody will miss it. SoT/ShoR are the big two from a threat perspective, I run with HotR as my third since our AoE threat can use all the help it can get, and the other single-target options (Judgement and CS) are both weak. Note that those calculations are not including the recent buffs to Retribution - I'm hoping to re-run those simulations this weekend with the updated coefficients.

<edit> And as always, if you have questions or specific numbers that you'd like crunched for the guide, just send me a PM and I'll do what I can.

#26 tkoreaper

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 05:12 PM

For Engineering, the profession benefit is you get to use the Belt and Glove enchants on top of other enchants. So you get Grounded Plasma Shield which gives an average 18k absorb (unsure of cooldown) and Quickflip Deflection Plates (1500 armor for 12 seconds/every minute for an average of 300 armor).


I am able to stack on my belt, cloak, and helm. Glove enchant is not stackable if you're using the web armor. I'm guessing that is because web armor doesn't add a "use" to the item like all the other chants do.

#27 _sl0t_

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 05:46 PM

I have 1.7k CS and 1.4k HotR against single target. Are you sure about your numbers?


Yup, but it just occurred me that CS is indeed better than HotR because of Vengeance.
Since Vengeance provides AP and most of the HotR damage is holy, which is based in STR, CS probably scales better than HotR, making my dummy numbers worthless.

Btw, is there any particular reason for not making our SP scale from AP instead of STR?


Regarding the glyphs, IMHO the Glyph of Focused Shield is just amazing. I went raiding in ICC yesterday and used it in all boss fights, replacing for something else after to have the shield jump on trash. A must have really.
The Glyph of SoR is also amazing for threat generation. With full Vengeance, 3 charges of HoPo and the glyph my SoR was criting for 47k.

I'd like to post some numbers from our ICC 25 BQ heroic from yesterday. I was off-tanking and the main tank was also a pally. What's the best way of doing this?

#28 paladinus

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 06:13 PM

  • The Guardian (0/32/9) - This spec picks up Divine Guardian which provides a straight 20% damage reduction to all party/raid members in range. It also picks up Guarded by the Light to take advantage of Word of Glory self-healing.


Being a level 80, I chose "The Guardian" build but with a change. Instead of using the last four talent points for Improved Judgment and Crusader, I chose to use two points in Improved Judgment and two points in Judgments of the Pure for the increased casting and melee haste grouped with Seal of Truth to hopefully work to my advantage. I felt that Crusade was only useful for working my way down the Ret talent tree. I may choose Crusade after I hit level 82 to get the Pursuit of Justice, but I am not sure whether I may or may not choose to go with Rule of Law when I get to 85, but right now I am still leaning towards doing a 3/33/6 build and using the 3 points in Holy for Judgments of the Pure. The crits for CS, HotR and WoG might be nice, but I will have to test and see if they outweigh the 9% hast increase from a Judgment.

Whatever you knew about the Paladin tanking rotation needs to now be tossed out the window. The previous 9/6 rotation that proved to be highly reliable is no longer possible. The rotation is also heavily effected by HoPo (as described above) so the order of abilities matter in order maximize the usage of HoPo. Because of this protection now uses a priority/clash resolution system like many other classes.


While it is true that the rotation as we know it is gone. I have been testing my AoE tanking in randoms and I have found that leading off with Avenger's Shield (with the Dazing Shield Glyph) then casting Holy Wrath followed up with Consecration is doing really well with getting initial threat with groups. I also stack 2 points of Holy Power and then use SotR (with the 10% glyph for 80% damage) followed up with 1 more stack of Holy Power and then casting Word of Glory (for some threat from healing). The entire time when Grand Crusader procs Avenger's Shield is used immediately. While this set up works fine for groups and most bosses in random heroics. I have yet to test it in ICC because I know this strategy will not work on Saurfang during the Blood Beast spawn, but after I have had a chance to tweak and test a good single target system on him, I will post my findings. I hope that this might help anyone with their Paladin AoE tanking. Any feedback on this is certainly welcome and appreciated.

One more thing, I have a macro that I spam for my 2 stacks of HP, SotR + 1 stack of HP, WoG that works really well with the global c/d's and it has a rotation that is as follows:

HotR, Judgment, CS, SotR, HotR, WoG

I am still working on this to try and figure out something to add to the end to fit in another CS with something else to get up to 3 stacks on the following rotations for SotR damage.

#29 Darthpred

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 07:27 PM

Regarding the glyphs, IMHO the Glyph of Focused Shield is just amazing. I went raiding in ICC yesterday and used it in all boss fights, replacing for something else after to have the shield jump on trash. A must have really.
The Glyph of SoR is also amazing for threat generation. With full Vengeance, 3 charges of HoPo and the glyph my SoR was criting for 47k.

Fully agreed with you here. So many glyphs I want to put in and so little place for them. This will end up in taking lots of erasing dust to raids and changing glyphs to the needs of the specific pull.

And I got some troubles with reforging. Mastery is great but when do I have to stop reforging other avoidance stats to it? Where is the reasonable limit for drop doge+parry down? It was asked before but still no answer to that

A litte offtop but need to ask.
Is it worth to take Hallowed Ground instead of Reckoning for ICC raids? Consecration's mana cost creates some panic in me when it comes to AoE tanking. Even Sanctuary+Judgements of the Wise seems unable to return such big numbers back quickly.

#30 Palisade

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 07:58 PM

What real benefit, if any, would the dazing shield glyph add to our arsenal? It seems counter intuitive to me to use it. Vengeance procs off of getting our heads kicked in, so don't we want the mobs hitting us (as before?)

And I got some troubles with reforging. Mastery is great but when do I have to stop reforging other avoidance stats to it? Where is the reasonable limit for drop doge+parry down? It was asked before but still no answer to that


The answer I got out of maintankadin was to get around 22% dodge, 22% parry and then fill in with block for the 102.4% (including of course the 5% miss and 15% holy shield.)

#31 paladinus

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 08:31 PM

What real benefit, if any, would the dazing shield glyph add to our arsenal? It seems counter intuitive to me to use it. Vengeance procs off of getting our heads kicked in, so don't we want the mobs hitting us (as before?)


You don't have to use it, it is merely a suggestion. I use it because I believe that it helps with crowd control when I confront a group. Cast AS (daze the mobs), run in cast HW and drop Consecration to build initial AoE threat. It has worked pretty well for me and HW will also stun most mobs if the Glyph of Holy Wrath is chosen. Dazed then stunned can be a pretty good combo.

Vengeance kicks in after we take damage, and we will take damage during a fight. Why not get in as much damage as you can before they start getting some in on you?

#32 Kasi

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 08:57 PM

The only problem I have with dazing on AS is that it at times conflicts with the previous main use of the ability. That being a way to get casters over to you. In somewhere like FoS or HoR it was invaluable to get ranged casters over to me in the big 5-6 pulls you get there. But with daze up it would slow their movement and make it harder to reach me. Which is why for right now I didn't take daze as one of my major glyphs.

However it is perhaps not as big an issue now since I tend to use AS more for maintaining agro on people in melee range, since our other aoe threat has been hurt. (although the hotfix to HotR should help) Once I get more comfortable with being more selective on AS I might reconsider on glyphing it.

#33 Snowy

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 09:02 PM

If I would have had a way to glyph AS to not apply the daze pre 4.0 I almost certainly would have used it. Perhaps it's just personal taste, but there's almost no benefit in dazing mobs as a tank unless you are specifically trying to kite them. Any other time I am either actively tanking those mobs, or want them to come to me -- in which case dazing them is counterproductive.

#34 emptyrepublic

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 09:19 PM

Alright, I've done about 20-25 small to moderate changes to the field manual. If you suggested something to me but I did not include your revisions it could be because it was too vague, similar to someone else's, too subjective, theory without justification, or I simply overlooked it (my scratch sheet got big quickly). If you feel strongly that something should be in the manual resend it to me; please be concise and clear on what you think should be corrected and what it should be corrected with and why. As usual, please be patient and give me some time to distill all the information that is out there and sent to me.

Also, kudos to Theck for letting me cheat off his test. ;)

Follow the development of the manual and find additional instructions at the link below:

» Paladin Protection Field Manual 4.0 Version - To Do List

#35 Dekkar

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 09:41 PM

One thing nobody seems to have noted yet:

The interrupt effect on Avenger's Shield is instantaneous, while the silence is applied only after the missile impacts the target(s). It's not easy to prove this to you without seeing it for yourselves, so you'll have to test it out. Below is my PTR testing threat on Avenger's Shield. Everything I've said in the thread is still true, except that the new tooltip for Avenger's Shield actually lists the interrupt now.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Avenger's Shield Behaviour (@ Alandrek)

#36 Sahas

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 10:09 PM

Fully agreed with you here. So many glyphs I want to put in and so little place for them. This will end up in taking lots of erasing dust to raids and changing glyphs to the needs of the specific pull.

And I got some troubles with reforging. Mastery is great but when do I have to stop reforging other avoidance stats to it? Where is the reasonable limit for drop doge+parry down? It was asked before but still no answer to that.


The hard and fast answer for the next few months is to reforge your excessive dodge and parry to the point that your mastery is providing enough block to block 100% of incoming attacks that are not avoided (i.e. 102.4% combined avoidance and block).

So take whatever your dodge and parry values are on the character sheet, add block %, add 5% miss and then add another 15% for holy shield's contribution and if the sum of those %'s is less than 102.4%, then you'll probably be able to reforge some dodge or parry into mastery to reach the "block cap". Also consider that raid buffs such as kings/Horn of winter will up your avoidance by a few percent depending on your current stats.

At 277 gear levels, I have heard of people easily reaching the block cap, however my guy is in many off set 264's and I am not there yet even after reforging some of my avoidance.

From the maintankadin reforging thread:

When trying to reach the block cap, your general reforging strategy should be to keep your dodge just above 21.6% and parry just above 21.44%. This will ensure that all dodge/parry rating that is reforged to mastery will be converted at a rate that is favorable to your overall avoidance. In most cases you will be reforging a lot of dodge to mastery, while minimally changing parry on your gear. This will of course depend on your gear itemization.


Failing that, you should reforge your avoidance to block to tailor to your specific situation and healers' needs. The discussion currently is on whether or not just reducing dodge/parry equally together into a greater amount of block is worth it even if you're taking more damage in the long run, provided that damage is less spikey.

Much of that discussion will be moot anyway if/when the buff to mastery makes it to live, essentially making reaching the block cap even easier than it currently is in some gear sets.

(edit for content and clarity)

#37 Streetlightout

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 11:40 PM

Has anybody been checking the healing of Ardent Defender? I have been pvping as prot (tons of fun) and been using Ardent Defender a few times, however I don't see the heal it's supposed to provide. I popped it once in low HP and then died, thinking "ok I must not have gotten it off in time" - but I went to check my logs and it said Ardent Defender healed me for 297 HP....huh?

My guess is that there is a bug (possibly?) that is making it heal for 15% of your current HP instead of 15% of your maximum HP. I would like to know if anyone else has experienced this issue since patch went live and will also be trying more tests on my own.


Edit:

Further tested shows that it is indeed working, which raises a few questions now -

#1 - one of the heals I got from Ardent Defender was a critical heal, I never looked at the numbers from it pre-patch but was it always capable of a critical heal? If not this is a nice addition
#2 - Since it seems like it is indeed working - what could explain me only getting a 297 heal from it? Do healing reduction abilities effect the heal? I just did a test with a hunter applying a healing debuff to me and it only healed for 4533 when it should be healing me for 5631

#38 frmorrison

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 01:40 AM

I am able to stack on my belt, cloak, and helm. Glove enchant is not stackable if you're using the web armor. I'm guessing that is because web armor doesn't add a "use" to the item like all the other chants do.


Note the level 85 version of the glove enchant is a /use effect, which is the focus of this guide.
At level 80 you have to decide between the permanent armor or 18 stamina/rocket attack.
It is nice to know the helm enchant stacks as well, more stamina!

#39 Velk

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 02:18 AM

At level 80 you have to decide between the permanent armor or 18 stamina/rocket attack.
It is nice to know the helm enchant stacks as well, more stamina!


No you don't. The armor webbing takes the enchant slot, and the rocket/hyperspeed accelerators use the tinker slot, so you can have both armor and rocket on gloves.

#40 Tor1958

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 07:08 AM

Nitro boost stacks with Tuskarr's




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